Defense under Barry

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,220
Reaction score
1,191
The Chiefs weren’t trading their best pass rusher though. We would be.

Z has been our best pass rusher, but I'm not sure that he would be in this system, if it's installed the way I'm theorizing.

Again, I could be wrong about that, or about the intention regarding the system.

But if my theory is correct, I don't think you're getting the same 12+ sack player. I think his production would be much more replaceable, and that the value he would draw now in a trade would exceed the value he would provide on the field.
 

Don Barclay

Cheesehead
Joined
Oct 20, 2016
Messages
57
Reaction score
9
Z has been our best pass rusher... I think his production would be much more replaceable, and that the value he would draw now in a trade would exceed the value he would provide on the field.

I think Z also brings value in terms of culture, presence, and leadership -- or at least that's how he's been sold to us as fans since he arrived. I hope management would consider that value if they do in fact weigh a trade -- morale is real.

Also, selfishly, I want players who make me stand up and bellow triumphant, profane joy at the TV during games -- if we were to lose both Z and Aaron Jones this offseason.....well, I guess my family might prefer the quieter game experience.
 

GleefulGary

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Messages
4,890
Reaction score
423
Z has been our best pass rusher, but I'm not sure that he would be in this system, if it's installed the way I'm theorizing.

Again, I could be wrong about that, or about the intention regarding the system.

But if my theory is correct, I don't think you're getting the same 12+ sack player. I think his production would be much more replaceable, and that the value he would draw now in a trade would exceed the value he would provide on the field.

So let’s say he gets, 8 sacks, but more pressures than usual. Will you still think you’re right?

cause I’ll bet a 6 pack or whatever that his numbers stay similar.
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,220
Reaction score
1,191
So let’s say he gets, 8 sacks, but more pressures than usual. Will you still think you’re right?

cause I’ll bet a 6 pack or whatever that his numbers stay similar.

Sure, why not-- you're on. Define "similar" for me.

If the offer is, say, a pick between 25 and 40, plus the 11.5M in relief, and he has the type of season you suggest, I will still think I was right to think he should be traded.
 

Mondio

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 20, 2014
Messages
12,566
Reaction score
1,185
I'll be the judge of similar, as long as I get to help finish the 6 pack with the winner?
 

GleefulGary

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Messages
4,890
Reaction score
423
Sure, why not-- you're on. Define "similar" for me.

If the offer is, say, a pick between 25 and 40, plus the 11.5M in relief, and he has the type of season you suggest, I will still think I was right to think he should be traded.

I don’t think a trade should have anything to do with this bet, as we have no way of knowing what he would get.

So he’s been averaging 13 sacks a year...how about if he gets less than 9, plus a drop in pressures by around 16 (1 per game). That sound fair?

You won the last Sternberger one, so I’m due.
 

Sunshinepacker

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
4,622
Reaction score
233
Z has been our best pass rusher, but I'm not sure that he would be in this system, if it's installed the way I'm theorizing.

Again, I could be wrong about that, or about the intention regarding the system.

But if my theory is correct, I don't think you're getting the same 12+ sack player. I think his production would be much more replaceable, and that the value he would draw now in a trade would exceed the value he would provide on the field.

If the Packers brought in a DC who can't effectively use Z and Gary then MLF needs to be fired. Any DC that's more interested in their "scheme" than best utilizing their players is an awful DC.
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,220
Reaction score
1,191
I don’t think a trade should have anything to do with this bet, as we have no way of knowing what he would get.

So he’s been averaging 13 sacks a year...how about if he gets less than 9, plus a drop in pressures by around 16 (1 per game). That sound fair?

You won the last Sternberger one, so I’m due.

What if we said anything in the double digits you win, rounding up from 9.5 too, and anything 9 and below I win.

What source would we use for pressures?
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,220
Reaction score
1,191
If the Packers brought in a DC who can't effectively use Z and Gary then MLF needs to be fired. Any DC that's more interested in their "scheme" than best utilizing their players is an awful DC.

No one said anything about Gary, so I'm not sure where that came from.

As to your second point, fans say that so flippantly all the time and I don't think much thought goes into what they're actually saying.

Every single coordinator and head coach in the NFL has a system, and every single system will be a bad fit for certain types of players. Every. Single. One.

Literally every team in the entire league will have players that they leave off their draft board and their free agent targets list because they aren't good fits.

Truly great offenses and truly great defenses marry scheme and talent together, of course flexing on either side (one side being scheme, and the other being talent), but not sacrificing the integrity of the system just to make it workable for one guy. The reason the Packers' offense went from mediocre to amazing this season is because they were operating within the integrity of the system far better than in 2019.

If you gave LaFleur a great drive blocking guard who can't climb or move laterally and just said "utilize your players!" he could try, but it wouldn't work that well.

If you gave Pete Carroll a corner who can really only thrive in man defense and said "utilize your players!" he could try, but it would probably fail.

You see this literally all the time. New coordinators come in, the initial fit with their personnel isn't great, and neither are the results, the personnel is molded to fit the scheme, and things improve. Imagine that.

No one is saying that the Packers hired someone who is disinterested in utilizing their players. I am 100% certain that Barry could come up with a plan to utilize Za'Darius. But the system as it was operated in LA (and I will keep reiterating this for clarity-- I can't know for certain that they're going to try to mimic Staley's defense; that's my theory) is not an ideal fit for him, I don't think.

Therefore, given that his value is really high right now, it might be smart team management to cash that value in and allocate different resources to the defense that fit better.
 

Jerellh528

Cheesehead
Joined
Mar 29, 2015
Messages
1,158
Reaction score
145
Who isn't moving out here? That's the real question.

Really? That sucks. I was deciding between there an Idaho to move to within the next couple years. I’m trying to find a spot in northwestern part of America with not a lot of people and much to do outdoors but with enough amenities to raise a family.
 

GreenNGold_81

Cheesehead
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Messages
1,358
Reaction score
85
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but MLF brought in Barry to run Fangio's system.
 

GleefulGary

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Messages
4,890
Reaction score
423
What if we said anything in the double digits you win, rounding up from 9.5 too, and anything 9 and below I win.

What source would we use for pressures?

Fine.

Whichever source is the most generous when it comes to pressures. ;)

Seriously though, I don’t know who’s the best at that. I’ll let you choose. As long as it’s the same source for the two years we should be fine.
 

GleefulGary

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Messages
4,890
Reaction score
423
Really? That sucks. I was deciding between there an Idaho to move to within the next couple years. I’m trying to find a spot in northwestern part of America with not a lot of people and much to do outdoors but with enough amenities to raise a family.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*breathes*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJHQHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Good luck brother.
 

GleefulGary

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Messages
4,890
Reaction score
423
our niece and new husband are just moving out there, we visit, so careful what you wish for :)

Great. More people. Just what I wanted.

For real though, Californians and Minnesotans are infiltrating the area. I hate it.
 

PikeBadger

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
3,888
Reaction score
244
If we just take names out of the equation, a really good defensive coordinator is way more important than a good pass rusher with two years left on his deal.

I would compare this idea to what the Chiefs did between 2018 and 2019.

Pre-2019, the Chiefs had Dee Ford and he was a really successful edge rusher. But in 2019, they fired Bob Sutton, hired Steve Spagnuolo, and shipped Ford out for value because he wasn't going to be a good fit in the new system.

Chiefs fans at the time could have said (and likely did) that hiring a coordinator for whom one of the best defensive players wasn't a fit was a terrible idea. But the actual result was that they got a 2nd round pick, and the defense took a big leap forward under Spagnuolo with guys that actually fit what he wanted to do.
We have seen this before with Capers and Kampmann.
 

PikeBadger

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
3,888
Reaction score
244
Really? That sucks. I was deciding between there an Idaho to move to within the next couple years. I’m trying to find a spot in northwestern part of America with not a lot of people and much to do outdoors but with enough amenities to raise a family.
Jackson, Wyoming. Bring your wallet.
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,220
Reaction score
1,191
As it would seem correct that Barry has been hired to bring Vic Fangio's defense to Green Bay, I wonder if they will try to hire him some assistants who also know that system and can help him teach it?

I don't have a big problem with any of the position coaches; it's not like I'm dying to see any of them replaced. But it would be nice if Barry wasn't all alone teaching this defense to both coaches and players.

Some potential names to keep an eye on:
  • Ejiro Evero, Safeties, Rams (Unlikely, but how funny would that be?)
  • Chris Shula, Outside Linebackers, Rams
  • Eric Henderson, Defensive Line, Rams
  • Thad Bogardus, Asst. Defensive Line, Rams
  • Jonathan Cooley, Defensive QB, Rams
  • Chris Beake, Defensive Asst., Broncos
  • Nathaniel Willingham, Defensive QC, Broncos
  • Mike Hiestand, Defensive QB, Broncos
  • Roy Anderson, Asst. Defensive Backs, Vikings
  • Bill Shuey, Outside Linebackers, Bears
Some of these guys you could probably hire away as position coaches because they're assistants or QC coaches. Others, like Evero for instance, you'd have to get creative and give them a larger title (like secondary coach or passing defensive coordinator, etc).
 

Dantés

Gute Loot
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
10,220
Reaction score
1,191
So the five most recent teams/seasons to run this system were the 2020 Rams, 2020 Broncos, 2019 Broncos, 2018 Bears, 2017 Bears. Here are the edge players that have played 50+% of snaps in recent seasons in this defense:
  • Leonard Floyd, Rams, 2020: 89%, 10.5 sacks
  • Von Miller, Broncos, 2019: 79%, 8 sacks
  • Leonard Floyd, Bears, 2018: 75%, 4 sacks
  • Khalil Mack, Bears, 2018: 72%, 12.5 sacks
  • Bradley Chubb, Broncos, 2020: 68%, 7.5 sacks
  • Malik Reed, Broncos, 2020: 67%, 8 sacks
  • Sam Acho, Bears, 2017: 60%, 3 sacks
  • Leonard Floyd, Bears, 2017: 55%, 4.5 sacks
This is what makes me question Za'Darius' fit in the defense. I don't see anyone like him. More than half of his sack production has come as an interior rusher. If the defensive approach doesn't lend itself to doing so much of that, I don't know what you really have with him.

Maybe Barry will happily use him on the interior just as much. I just having seen it in this defense.
 
Top