Broncos studs and duds

[Magooch]

Clark is gone, Wyatt is gone. We had Jaire for half of 2024 and he’s gone. Wilson is gone. Slaton, Stokes, Ballentine. We added Hobbs but he has been a disaster.

I get the glass half full approach comparing to the 2024 season without Parsons but this just isn’t the same defense.

Like I was saying elsewhere too, the idea was that adding Parsons would help a lot of our guys on defense to take the next step. By and large that hasn't happened.

Last year we had an ineffective pass rush and it made our secondary a big vulnerability at times. No pressure meant either sending less guys in coverage and/or more time for the opposing QB to pick apart our defense. Parsons coming in had a dramatic positive impact here.
We hoped LVN, Gary, Enagbare, etc would make big strides having Parsons soaking up attention, and it's been a mixed bag to say the least.
Unfortunately I suspect we will see our secondary revert to having some of the issues they had last year with an ineffective pass rush, and if Gary/LVN/Enagbare didn't really step up that much WITH Parsons I doubt they will be able to make that step WITHOUT him.

 

[OldSchool101]

Clark is gone, Wyatt is gone. We had Jaire for half of 2024 and he’s gone. Wilson is gone. Slaton, Stokes, Ballentine. We added Hobbs but he has been a disaster.

I get the glass half full approach comparing to the 2024 season without Parsons but this just isn’t the same defense.

That’s true on Clark. I did forget to mention him.

Already mentioned Wilson and specifically. Yet he played 50% D snaps and Were pretty equipped with Cooper and McDuff alongside Quay. Certainly you aren’t arguing our LB group is worse in 2025 vs 2024?

Ballentine was exclusively Teams go check on that. He wasn’t Defense so that’s not true. Him and Rochelle were really Richs’ guys.

Valentine is > stokes, not worse. Stokes after his Rookie season was at best a placemarker on a good day. Almost record breaking non performance. Across 3 seasons 0 sacks 0 PD, O INT, O FF. you can’t try and be that bad! Why do you think we sent him out to pasture?

The irony is we’ve actually gotten better against the Run. Almost zero noticeable difference upfront. The Pass Rush last year was poor level if you recall? Kinda hard to argue that’s suddenly worse.

2025 Defense

GB is
4.8 per play overall (5th)
5.5 per pass allowed (7th)
3.8 per rush (#2)
Points allowed 20.1 (8th)
Sacks (2.36 per game)

2024 Defense

5.2 per play overall (8th)
6.0 per pass allowed (11th)
4.0 per rush (#3)
Points allowed? 19.9 (6th)
Sacks (2.65 per game)

Actually GB has not regressed at all except for 0.2 points per game which is negligible. We’re actually very slightly behind 2024 in sacks per game which is hard to believe. Micah had 0 last week and 0 this week. Imo that “the sky is falling” from our 2024 Defense isn’t factual. At least thus far.
We will see how we move forward without Micah though. As far as the rest of those guys you mentioned? weren’t some world beaters at all like you are portraying. The biggest loss imo is Wilson.

Lukas hasn’t played more than 35% snaps since Week 4! We got him 32% yesterday but expect that number to stay over 50% snaps on an ongoing basis. Cox Jr has played??? 0 snaps

 

[adambr2]

That’s true on Clark. I did forget to mention him.

Already mentioned Wilson and specifically. Yet he played 50% D snaps and Were pretty equipped with Cooper and McDuff alongside Quay. Certainly you aren’t arguing our LB group is worse in 2025 vs 2024?

Ballentine was exclusively Teams go check on that. He wasn’t Defense so that’s not true. Him and Rochelle were really Richs’ guys.

Valentine is > stokes, not worse. Stokes after his Rookie season was at best a placemarker on a good day. Almost record breaking non performance. Across 3 seasons 0 sacks 0 PD, O INT, O FF. you can’t try and be that bad! Why do you think we sent him out to pasture?

The irony is we’ve actually gotten better against the Run. Almost zero noticeable difference upfront. The Pass Rush last year was poor level if you recall? Kinda hard to argue that’s suddenly worse.

2025 Defense

GB is
4.8 per play overall (5th)
5.5 per pass allowed (7th)
3.8 per rush (#2)
Points allowed 20.1 (8th)

2024 Defense

5.2 per play overall (8th)
6.0 per pass allowed (11th)
4.0 per rush (#3)
Points allowed? 19.9 (6th)

Actually GB has not regressed at all except for 0.2 points per game which is negligee. So I think “the sky is falling” sentiment is more emotional than factual.

Valentine is not better than Stokes. We sent Stokes out to pasture because Gute made a mistake and paid Hobbs instead. Stokes has been very good for the Raiders this year - by the metrics, much better than Hobbs and yes, better than Valentine.

Of course the pass rush has been better this year than last. We had Micah Parsons this year, and now we suddenly do not.

I’m not arguing that GB’s defense has regressed so far in 2025. But I’m definitely arguing that they’ll regress significantly without Parsons.

 

[pacmaniac]

Valentine is not better than Stokes. We sent Stokes out to pasture because Gute made a mistake and paid Hobbs instead. Stokes has been very good for the Raiders this year - by the metrics

Why is Stokes playing well now? Are we still making mistakes with CBs like we did with Micah Hyde and Casey Hayward?

 

[htownpackfan66]

Studs

Uh I got nothing....Uh McManus was 100% today on what he was called to do.

Duds
Defense
Love with a meh game
Horrible playcalls from MLF that moon shot up 9 was not needed


Ball busters tier of pain

Losing Parsons probably for rest of this season and into next with ACL

Watson hurt again

Tough losses with Parsons and Watson, and, of course the game. The secondary needs a lot of work. Re: Parsons…. This is the danger of trading the farm for one player. Now he is out until middle of next year at the earliest and we are out two first rounders. Of course, would we even be in this position without him?

 

[adambr2]

Lukas Van Ness is not making up for the loss of Parsons. I’m sorry, that’s just the reality. There’s a reason why we gave up two 1sts plus Clark plus 184 million for the man. It’s basically like losing the QB of your defense. He’s the ultimate disruptor.

I’m not saying we’re totally doomed, but downplaying this loss like it isn’t extremely significant just isn’t realistic.

A lot is going to fall on Hafley. Things are going to change schematically, they have to. Probably more blitz packages.

Unfortunately, the corners on this team are more nickel and dime types masquerading as starters.

 

[chemist]

Valentine is not better than Stokes. We sent Stokes out to pasture because Gute made a mistake and paid Hobbs instead. Stokes has been very good for the Raiders this year - by the metrics, much better than Hobbs and yes, better than Valentine.

Of course the pass rush has been better this year than last. We had Micah Parsons this year, and now we suddenly do not.

I’m not arguing that GB’s defense has regressed so far in 2025. But I’m definitely arguing that they’ll regress significantly without Parsons.

For me as a whole this team is much better than last year.
Despite a terrible mid season, ever since the giants game this team has begun to gel.
Once MLF found his way of running the offense properly, now producing 25-30 ppg vs the measly 1 TD 1 FG we were managing before his enlighenment, things have fallen into place.
We barely lost to a denver team that had probably its best game of the season while we were not close to our best.
As for our defense sometimes having guys all on the same level, all rowing in the same direction,is better than having 1 super star and a bunch of other guys.

I feel the next bears game should give us insight into what kind of team we have now

 

[OldSchool101]

Like I was saying elsewhere too, the idea was that adding Parsons would help a lot of our guys on defense to take the next step. By and large that hasn't happened.

Last year we had an ineffective pass rush and it made our secondary a big vulnerability at times. No pressure meant either sending less guys in coverage and/or more time for the opposing QB to pick apart our defense. Parsons coming in had a dramatic positive impact here.
We hoped LVN, Gary, Enagbare, etc would make big strides having Parsons soaking up attention, and it's been a mixed bag to say the least.
Unfortunately I suspect we will see our secondary revert to having some of the issues they had last year with an ineffective pass rush, and if Gary/LVN/Enagbare didn't really step up that much WITH Parsons I doubt they will be able to make that step WITHOUT him.

Good points and I largely agree. So one thing that was effective last year was we used our LB’s more to pass rush. Cooper, Wilson etc. I noticed we’ve pulled back on that strategy some. Don’t think for a second that Jeff isn’t thinking about ways he can make up for any lack of pass rush. Between Coop and Cox jr and now Lukas back? I really truly don’t think we’ll go down the tubes like a select group (not you) is portraying. We discounted Haf a little last year until everyone looked at the results. This was a VERY good D in 2024 without Parsons. We had to get creative though.
IMO we need 1 of either Lukas or Cox Jr to step up. I think it’s a coin flip but not at all unconceivable. I might be in a minority, but past perimeter CB depth I’m not overly shaking in my boots like a select group is doing. Ok it’s frustrating, I’m compassionate to that. I’m not ridiculing here, I’m just stating what I see. People need to take a deep breath. Heck I just buried 2 direct family members this week (yes legally! It’s true but it sounded creepy! Lol). I guess I’m not phased by this stuff it’s really small potatoes. Point being let’s not all jump off a bridge we can get through this. Give Hafley an opportunity to redirect he’s a very capable DC.

 

[Magooch]

Just for an interesting little point of reference...

2025 defensive passing EPA (lower is better): +0.095 (21st in league; Texans are 1st with -0.123)
2025 defensive rush EPA: -0.112 (8th; Seahawks 1st at -0.201)
2025 defensive total EPA: +0.014 (16th; Texans 1st at -0.117)

2024 defensive passing EPA: -0.023 (4th; Broncos are 1st with -0.061)
2024 defensive rush EPA: -0.137 (8th; Vikings 1st at -0.203)
2024 defensive total EPA: -0.066 (4th; Broncos 1st at -0.100)

So yes, it's fair to say that we had a very, very good defense last year without Parsons. So much so that you could also argue that in fact we added the best or second-best EDGE in the league and somehow managed to get worse overall. Will we revert to last year's form if we take Parsons out of the equation? That's hard for me to envision.

I remember Bill Barnwell talking a few months back about the impact Parsons had on the Cowboys defense. In his time in Dallas, whenever he was on the field they had the single-best defense by DVOA in the whole league. And when he was off the field? Second-worst.

Not quite so stark for us but I did read today that our defense allows the 10th-best QBR when Parsons is playing....and 22nd when he's not on the field.

But on the plus side maybe it decreases the likelihood of someone pulling away Hafley for a head coaching gig

 

[milani]

Clark is gone, Wyatt is gone. We had Jaire for half of 2024 and he’s gone. Wilson is gone. Slaton, Stokes, Ballentine. We added Hobbs but he has been a disaster.

I get the glass half full approach comparing to the 2024 season without Parsons but this just isn’t the same defense.

No. It ABSOLUTELY is not. I wonder if keeping Rasul Douglas and/or Stokes would have been a better choice.

 

[adambr2]

No. It ABSOLUTELY is not. I wonder if keeping Rasul Douglas and/or Stokes would have been a better choice.

Stokes has been a far better corner this season than Hobbs, at a fraction of the cost.

 

[milani]

Stokes has been a far better corner this season than Hobbs, at a fraction of the cost.

And still young.

 

[chemist]

Just for an interesting little point of reference...

2025 defensive passing EPA (lower is better): +0.095 (21st in league; Texans are 1st with -0.123)
2025 defensive rush EPA: -0.112 (8th; Seahawks 1st at -0.201)
2025 defensive total EPA: +0.014 (16th; Texans 1st at -0.117)

2024 defensive passing EPA: -0.023 (4th; Broncos are 1st with -0.061)
2024 defensive rush EPA: -0.137 (8th; Vikings 1st at -0.203)
2024 defensive total EPA: -0.066 (4th; Broncos 1st at -0.100)

So yes, it's fair to say that we had a very, very good defense last year without Parsons. So much so that you could also argue that in fact we added the best or second-best EDGE in the league and somehow managed to get worse overall. Will we revert to last year's form if we take Parsons out of the equation? That's hard for me to envision.

I remember Bill Barnwell talking a few months back about the impact Parsons had on the Cowboys defense. In his time in Dallas, whenever he was on the field they had the single-best defense by DVOA in the whole league. And when he was off the field? Second-worst.

Not quite so stark for us but I did read today that our defense allows the 10th-best QBR when Parsons is playing....and 22nd when he's not on the field.

But on the plus side maybe it decreases the likelihood of someone pulling away Hafley for a head coaching gig

I appreciate all the data you presented on our D from last year and this year.
For me I have to go by what I see on the field of play.
Last year vs our division rivals we always started slowly but in the 2nd half our offense would come to life and score a ton of points but it was never enough because our D could not get the necessary stops.
We had a 1 - 5 record in our Div and we were lucky to have that because the bears PK had the winning FG on his toe in one game but we managed to block it .
This year our D has stymied the lions twice, suffocated the vikings and held off the bears so we sit at 4-0 in our division.
I'll take this years defense every time.

 

[milani]

I appreciate all the data you presented on our D from last year and this year.
For me I have to go by what I see on the field of play.
Last year vs our division rivals we always started slowly but in the 2nd half our offense would come to life and score a ton of points but it was never enough because our D could not get the necessary stops.
We had a 1 - 5 record in our Div and we were lucky to have that because the bears PK had the winning FG on his toe in one game but we managed to block it .
This year our D has stymied the lions twice, suffocated the vikings and held off the bears so we sit at 4-0 in our division.
I'll take this years defense every time.

Or what WAS our defense for this year.

 

[OldSchool101]

We sent Stokes out to pasture because Gute made a mistake and paid Hobbs instead.

I disagree with this. We paid Hobbs because Stokes wasn’t worth much above Veteran minimum. This will go down in Packer record books. Across 3 consecutive seasons. “0-0-0-0-0”
PD-TFL-Sacks-FF-INT
This will go down as the singular worst contributions across 3 seasons for a starting CB (Stokes). Nobody in GB would spend past vet minimum on that lack of production we got from Stokes.

Do you realize that across 5 seasons (4 combining missed time) he has exactly ZERO INT? Miracle maker Stokes is making 4mil annual and $3mil guaranteed and has a 71.9 PFF grade with ZERO INT and 4 PD. Valentine is making $1mil annual with 100K guaranteed and he’s already outperformed 2024 Stokes AND has a 66.5% grade with…. 4 PD! These guys are PFF ranked 20/33 respectively out of 108 CB’s. Basically splitting hairs if we graded them. So before we go declaring Stokes for MVP let’s compare the results and compare actual performance instead of throwing false accusations around at Brian. Nobody in GB is paying Stokes $4mil for that unless it’s desperation time.
Negligible results and we’re banking $3mil a year. Packers Won on that transaction imo. it’s really not close unless you can pay Stokes $1.5mil and $200k guaranteed. Not happening.

But I’m definitely arguing that they’ll regress significantly without Parsons.

We will see. We’re ranked 8th in points. At 20.1 per allowed. So what exactly is your definition of significantly? I’m curious so we can check back later to validate this claim. Be bold! Don’t start *****footing and back up on me! lol

 

[tynimiller]

I disagree with this. We paid Hobbs because Stokes wasn’t worth much above Veteran minimum. This will go down in Packer record books. Across 3 consecutive seasons. “0-0-0-0-0”
PD-TFL-Sacks-FF-INT
This will go down as the singular worst contributions across 3 seasons for a starting CB (Stokes). Nobody in GB would spend past vet minimum on that lack of production we got from Stokes.

Do you realize that across 5 seasons (4 combining missed time) he has exactly ZERO INT? Miracle maker Stokes is making 4mil annual and $3mil guaranteed and has a 71.9 PFF grade with ZERO INT and 4 PD. Valentine is making $1mil annual with 100K guaranteed and he’s already outperformed 2024 Stokes AND has a 66.5% grade with…. 4 PD! These guys are PFF ranked 20/33 respectively out of 108 CB’s. Basically splitting hairs if we graded them. So before we go declaring Stokes for MVP let’s compare the results and compare actual performance instead of throwing false accusations around at Brian. Nobody in GB is paying Stokes $4mil for that unless it’s desperation time.
Negligible results and we’re banking $3mil a year. Packers Won on that transaction imo. it’s really not close unless you can pay Stokes $1.5mil and $200k guaranteed. Not happening.

We will see. We’re ranked 8th in points. At 20.1 per allowed. So what exactly is your definition of significantly? I’m curious so we can check back later to validate this claim. Be bold! Don’t start *****footing and back up on me! lol

Just to be fair some of those three years he wasn’t even able to play.

Doesn’t change the points at all as it was time to part ways for sure (and I’m a Stokes fan).

 

[coulomb]

What about the Parsons move to you wasn't Gute-esq?

Shelling out huge resources for a big name Player. Every other team seems to do it all the time, packers do it once every 50 years. maybe not gute-esq, he did sign mckinney to a pretty big contract.

But yeah, gute takes more chances than TT did, but he's never went all in like this before.

 

[milani]

I disagree with this. We paid Hobbs because Stokes wasn’t worth much above Veteran minimum. This will go down in Packer record books. Across 3 consecutive seasons. “0-0-0-0-0”
PD-TFL-Sacks-FF-INT
This will go down as the singular worst contributions across 3 seasons for a starting CB (Stokes). Nobody in GB would spend past vet minimum on that lack of production we got from Stokes.

Do you realize that across 5 seasons (4 combining missed time) he has exactly ZERO INT? Miracle maker Stokes is making 4mil annual and $3mil guaranteed and has a 71.9 PFF grade with ZERO INT and 4 PD. Valentine is making $1mil annual with 100K guaranteed and he’s already outperformed 2024 Stokes AND has a 66.5% grade with…. 4 PD! These guys are PFF ranked 20/33 respectively out of 108 CB’s. Basically splitting hairs if we graded them. So before we go declaring Stokes for MVP let’s compare the results and compare actual performance instead of throwing false accusations around at Brian. Nobody in GB is paying Stokes $4mil for that unless it’s desperation time.
Negligible results and we’re banking $3mil a year. Packers Won on that transaction imo. it’s really not close unless you can pay Stokes $1.5mil and $200k guaranteed. Not happening.

We will see. We’re ranked 8th in points. At 20.1 per allowed. So what exactly is your definition of significantly? I’m curious so we can check back later to validate this claim. Be bold! Don’t start *****footing and back up on me! lol

The 2023 defense had its weaknesses but they did make some plays down the stretch and the postseason. This is not one about being optimistic. Guys will try. Hopefully, the offense and STs can step up.

 

[OldSchool101]

No. It ABSOLUTELY is not. I wonder if keeping Rasul Douglas and/or Stokes would have been a better choice.

No. Valentine outperformed any season Stokes had since 2021 (rookie). Rasul is in obvious Decline but still better than Stokes. Even with this so called “great” Stokes play (he’s having a slightly above average season. Stokes PFF grade vs Valentine is 71.9 vs 66.5. Or 20th/108 vs 33rd/108.
Valentine costs $1m with 100K guaranteed.
Stokes cost $4mil with 3mil guar

Stokes is a little more solid in Run D. He finally logged 2 TFL this season which is commendable but nothing to brag about. On 777 snaps that’s nothing to be bragging about. Stokes did wrap up behind LOS better imo. Valentine and Stokes both have exactly 4PD and Carrington did his in 130 less snaps (nearly 2 less contests). Neither have an INT. Stokes has never had an INT since his 2021 NFL start. There’s no way I’d pay Stokes an extra $3mil a year for such a slight variation over Valentine. Especially after he disappeared for his last 2.25 seasons in GB. Truthfully Carrington doesn’t get enough credit for a late 7th Rounder on a miniscule contract. Stokes is being drastically overestimated by some select fans in an attempt to disparage Brian or Matt or Jeff or really anyone they can point fingers at to just vent out of frustration. You’re a smart dude. That’s real talk

 

[adambr2]

s

I disagree with this. We paid Hobbs because Stokes wasn’t worth much above Veteran minimum.

And Hobbs managed to be worth even less than that.

PD-TFL-Sacks-FF-INT
This will go down as the singular worst contributions across 3 seasons for a starting CB (Stokes). Nobody in GB would spend past vet minimum on that lack of production we got from Stokes.

Do you realize that across 5 seasons (4 combining missed time) he has exactly ZERO INT? Miracle maker Stokes is making 4mil annual and $3mil guaranteed and has a 71.9 PFF grade with ZERO INT and 4 PD. Valentine is making $1mil annual with 100K guaranteed and he’s already outperformed 2024 Stokes AND has a 66.5% grade with…. 4 PD! These guys are PFF ranked 20/33 respectively out of 108 CB’s. Basically splitting hairs if we graded them. So before we go declaring Stokes for MVP let’s compare the results and compare actual performance instead of throwing false accusations around at Brian.

You mean, the person who used a 1st round draft pick for that terrible production?

We will see. We’re ranked 8th in points. At 20.1 per allowed. So what exactly is your definition of significantly? I’m curious so we can check back later to validate this claim. Be bold! Don’t start *****footing and back up on me! lol

I dunno, I didn’t know we were going to put a rigid definition on it. They’ll give up more points per game, more yards per game, and generate less pressure, that is my assumption. Arguing exactly how much of each category meets the definition of “significant” is semantics.

 

[milani]

Just to be fair some of those three years he wasn’t even able to play.

Doesn’t change the points at all as it was time to part ways for sure (and I’m a Stokes fan).

I know Denver does not get as cold as GB in December. But yesterday was rather warm even for that area.

 

[rmontro]

Discipline issues/Procedural penalties
I would love to see how many procedural type penalties we incur on offense. Stuff like holding, hands to the face, etc...it happens. But I feel like we are constantly getting dinged for false starts, illegal shifts, ineligible receiver, illegal formation, etc...

This is one of the most frustrating things to watch. But maybe it's a part of having the youngest team in the league. That's just an excuse though.

 

[Magooch]

This is one of the most frustrating things to watch. But maybe it's a part of having the youngest team in the league. That's just an excuse though.

Probably some truth to that. But at the same time… it’s not like we’ve happened upon having the youngest team by accident. That’s by design, so I’d like to think we’d have considered the “side effects”….

 

[milani]

This is one of the most frustrating things to watch. But maybe it's a part of having the youngest team in the league. That's just an excuse though.

We are not the worst in the league. But that roughness call on a 1st and 20 when Denver had yet to score was devastating. We get a stop there and maybe we go in at half by more.

 

[gopkrs]

This is one of the most frustrating things to watch. But maybe it's a part of having the youngest team in the league. That's just an excuse though.

Yes and a bad excuse imho