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Are you happy now that Javon is gone ??

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by flapackfan, May 10, 2006.

  1. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Cheesehead

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    I didn't expect TT to sign a pro-bowler, but there were better WRs available. Heck, Jerry Rice wasn't even considered all last season. I know that he wouldn't have been great at his age, but he would have commanded attention and opened things up for other players. Rice was looking for chance to be an impact player last year, and he could have done that in GB. He may seem like a reach, but not as big a reach as Wallace.

    TT had plenty of misses last year, but he also had some good signings. I thought it was a great draft last year. The signings of Lee and Gado along with the trade for Robert Thomas really helped the team. Unfortunately the misses with Little, Freeman, Klemm, O'Dwyer, etc really hurt.

    In the end, as fans we have the benefit of hindsight. But you are correct that don't spend a fraction of the time analyzing these guys and we don't know an ounce of what the pros know about the situations involved. Still, I will not stop analyzing the moves the pros make because they affect my team! Without the fans, there is no team.

    I firmly believe that TT could have (and should have) handled the Walker situation better. That was one player who really can make a difference in the game and it hurts this team to lose him. I also firmly believe that TT could have done better than Klemm and O'Dwyer in replacing our pro-bowl offensive linemen, even considering the cap situation last year.

    This is not a personal attack from me Trom, because I have no ill feelings toward you. We're just 2 dedicated fans who want to see the best for GB, but have different opinions of how that's done sometimes.
     
  2. flapackfan

    flapackfan Cheesehead

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    [quote="P@ck66

    That's exactly right...Flapackfan..exactly right...Some people LOVE untested ROOKIES...go figure..!

    ...the only problem is that on this forum you have some people who think TT can do no wrong...and will always take his side regardless or rationality or circumstance.....so there's no winning an argument here...even if you are correct.

    ..The funny thing is though...these are the same people who will be backpedaling and saying they didn't say this or didn't say that when they obviously did (Tromadz)..(even when quotes are dredged up to the contrary)...if TT's grand little experiment doesn't come to fruition in 3-4 years and he is shitcanned by Bob Harlan for another so-called GM "GENIUS" acquired from somewhere...

    (and in their petulance they will call you sweet names like "ignorant" and a "moron" and brilliant things of this nature...)[/quote]

    At least i know you got my back :)
     
  3. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    At least i know you got my back :)[/quote]


    Yep welcome to Wonderland. It's so funny that some people will defend TT with things they don't know anything about. It was funny on Draft Day when we were in the Gameday chat. Everytime GB was up and the pick was announced Tro would say "Great Pick".

    It went something like this

    The Packers select Ingle Martin.......
    Tro - "Great Pick"
    Everyone else "?????"

    The Packers select Johnny Jolly
    Tro - "WHAT A STEAL"
    Everyone else "Who?"

    The Packers select Bugs Bunny
    Tro - "TT is a Genius, this guy was a projected as a first rounder"
    Everyone else - "WTF"
     
  4. Packnic

    Packnic Cheesehead

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    translation.... maybe that meant Trom did research and knew what he was talking about. He agreed with the guy that gets paid millions to make the decisions (whom we know does research) and you disagree with him based on the fact that you just dont like the guy... just because he wasnt a big name, and just because you didnt hear count chocula talkin about him in his mock drafts.... doesnt mean it was the wrong pick.

    and believe me flapackerfan.... Pack66 is the last guy you want on your side. he makes corky look like the captain of the debate team.
     
  5. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Trom did research in 2.3 seconds Packnic? Translation....Trom is TT son who can't do any wrong.

    It's not about following one group Packnic. When Pack66 says something that is right than you agree. God gave you a spine and 2 feet for a reason.

    As far as the guy who gets paid millions making decisions goes.....I guess we are all supposed to just nod our heads in agreement because he gets paid millions so he must be right. Geez, don't ever throw your opinions in on anything because TT must always be right.


    It's funny that you fabricate things to fit your argument. Where do I say that I don't like the guy? Where do I say anything about guys from Big Schools? Did you ever think that maybe I just don't think the guy is the right fit because of his poor fundementals?


    You feed right into the point that FlaPackerpan made. You just want to jump on Pack66 for everything he says and hate it when people agree with him. I disagree with alot of his assessments and anti-TT stuff but I DO agree with him on the draft being less than spectacular.

    Trom is on the complete opposite side with all his "TT can do no wrong" garbage. It seems that most pick sides instead of voicing thier own opinions based on facts. You can say Pack66 is "Corky of the Debate Team" but you must say it about the other side as well. I am sorry you are spineless and see it as a black-white thing and are unable to objectively debate the situation, thus you result to "picking a side"



    Don't bash Flapackerpan because he forms his own rational opinions instead of piggybacking one side like you seem to do.
     
  6. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Even YOU don't believe this Packnic!

    Great post pyledriver.
     
  7. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Yep welcome to Wonderland. It's so funny that some people will defend TT with things they don't know anything about. It was funny on Draft Day when we were in the Gameday chat. Everytime GB was up and the pick was announced Tro would say "Great Pick".

    It went something like this

    The Packers select Ingle Martin.......
    Tro - "Great Pick"
    Everyone else "?????"

    The Packers select Johnny Jolly
    Tro - "WHAT A STEAL"
    Everyone else "Who?"

    The Packers select Bugs Bunny
    Tro - "TT is a Genius, this guy was a projected as a first rounder"
    Everyone else - "WTF"[/quote]

    Ingle Martin... Once a top college recruit. STrong arm. Can throw probably as far as Favre. Played at Florida but transfered to Furman because Chris Leak won the job as a true Frosh. Had a solid year. Was one of the top peformers at the combine amoung the QB's. Some scouts rated him as a 3rd round pick. Others a 4th. Green Bay got him in the 5th to be a backup. It was a good pick.

    Johnny Jolley was a risky pick. Was once regarded a top 5 DT prospect but got hurt and that slowed him down. He's a big body that can break into the lines rotation early but I wouldn't expect him to come in and compete for a starting job. Possibly down the road if he plays well. In round 5 or 6 he wasn't a bad pick.

    Green Bay's worse pick was Tony Moll the OT. I thought he'd go undrafted.
     
  8. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Martin was NOT a good pick for this team. In the 5th round on a 4-12 team we select a 3rd string QB???? That is at BEST! Yeah, there were no other spots we could have filled with that pick.

    Before you start with the "Small School" thing, that is the reason I question the pick. He will never be a starter in this league IMO but may be a decent backup.


    That's not the point however. Everyone wants to sugarcoat everything by saying "IF he does" this and "good pick in the 6th" blah blah blah, but want to ignore the negatives on these guys. If you expect these guys to step in and contribute right away forget it. Will they improve down the line,probably, but I don't get excited over a bunch of fundamental lacking rookies starting on our O-Line.


    Noone knows anything about Martin or Moll,Tollefson, etc besides what the read on the "Positives" section of his draft profile on NFL.com or whatever. The problem is if you scroll down a little there is also a "Negatives" section.

    You can focus on the positives and twist it into what you want to but I choose to look at what the guy struggles with and how GB plans on using him and then put the 2 together to form an opinion.


    I don't think the draft was a disaster with guys like Hawk, Jennings, and Rogers but the O-Lineman need substantial work, Hodge is a backup MLB and Martin is a 3rd stringer if he can beat out Mr. Arth. I just don't likethe approach TT took with it when drafting for a 4-12 team.
     
  9. SuperRat

    SuperRat Cheesehead

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    Tons of teams spend late round draft picks getting a developmental guy at quarterback. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Even if he become only a good backup that is good because if Rodgers pans out he will need somebody behind him.

    I think in looking at a players positives and negatives and looking at how Green Bay plans to use them is a job much better done by the organization who have scouts to see what the players can do and see how they would fit into the team's philosophy. The organization decided that these were the players that would work out best for the team and be it right or wrong, they know more about the individual players and the teams plans on how to use them better than you or me. According to an article in the Des Moines Register that I read yesterday, Hodge has been practicing at weakside linebacker, so he is more than a backup MLB.
     
  10. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Ok I guess we are only allowed to be Cheerleaders now. No since of ever questioning anything GB does ever again. Sorry, I thought thats what we were her for, my bad
     
  11. SuperRat

    SuperRat Cheesehead

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    Show me where I said that you had no right at all to voice your opinions? I understood what you were saying but I don't think it is wrong to assume that you or I haven't scouted the guys or know exactly how green bay is going to use them.
     
  12. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Martin was a great pick for the team. Why? It's getting back to the Ron Wolf philosophy. Always take a QB. That's what we did and it worked out numerous times for us. We got compensation for Hassleback, Brooks, Burnell. In round 5 we're not going to find anyone that's going to come in and make an impact right away. Obviously you get lucky with players like Terrell Davis but you can't rely on a round 5 pick to come in. Green Bay has an old QB. Favre is old. We have Rodgers. great. So when Favre is gone we have Rodgers and .... We bring in Martin. If he performs well in preseason some teams might like him. Maybe he does maybe he doesn’t. We're talking about a 5th round pick remember though. So it's not a make or break pick. If Martin does perform well in the preseason we can trade him or we have a solid backup. Both big pluses. Again 5th round pick we're talking about. If we trade him we're get more than a 5th for him. I'm talking a couple years down the road. QB's are very valuable now a days. It's a QB league. He has a all the physical traits to play in this league as well. He's got great size and an NFL arm. He's considered a developmental player that could start. Martin was a good pick

    TAKING A QB IS NEVER A BAD PICK especially in today’s league and when your rebuilding like the Packers.

    I know plenty about Martin. Don't speak for me. I've got film on him. Both Florida and Furman. On one tape he rolls to his right throws to the opposite direction about 65 yards. That's an NFL arm. He can develop into a starter. He needs the right coaching to do so. McCarthy had developed QB’s before.

    Hodge is regarded as the 2nd MLB in this draft behind only D'Qwell Jackson. He's not a project either. HE could come in and start on numerous teams. Hodge is a little undersize but for a MLB that's ok. He can maybe play the weak side as well. I don't see him starting on the strong side for us. The Draft is about the future not about now. In round 3 your not going to find an impact player usually. Round 1 and 2 are for that and that’s what we did. We likely added 2 starters and a player who will contribute. Back to Hodge. Hodge was a steal in this draft. A lot of people consider him the best value pick in the entire first day of the draft. He's definitely up there. He adds depth to the LB core. Green Bay needs that. Without Hawk and Hodge it's not pretty. With them it looks solid. You can potentially move Barnett to the strong side and play Hodge in the middle. I think in time that’s what they may end up doing. Next year Hodge will likely be starting. This year I think he’s the top backup. I think Hawk, Barnett, and Ben Taylor start this year.
     
  13. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Exactly, so its ok to be Rah-Rah for guys people know nothing about BUT it's not ok to be upset about guys we know nothing about.

    I just don't get it. All this GREAT PICK horseshit from people who have never watched these guys play one down of college football is nothing more than TT loving.

    I wish these guys the best and hope to god they pan out but when you draft an OL for a zone blocking scheme I don't have to "GUESS" how GB is going to try to use them. The problem is these guys are to RAW to throw in there and expect any kind of production.

    So now we get to round 5 and since we have such a solid team we have the LUXURY of drafting a "Developmental QB" {your own words'} who would have been around in FA or the 7th round most likely.

    It was a bad pick in my opinion. It's not so much WHO it was but more of a WHY THERE or WHY A QB type of thing.

    I just think the OLine problem is still far from solved. I applaud your I HAVE FAITH in TT way of thinking, but I simply don't feel the same.
     
  14. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    You know, some of you people are regarding our 5th - 7th round picks as though they were 1st and 2nds. The late rounds are precisely the spot where you take a guy like Ingle Martin and Johnny Jolly. These guys are for 2 - 3 years down the road, with the few exceptions being guys that suprise and work up to starters quickly.

    Most players in this spot are marginal talents, or talented players who dropped for other reasons. Martin and Jolly fit the latter description...small school and injury respectively.
     
  15. SuperRat

    SuperRat Cheesehead

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    Ugh people always seem to say that I'm saying something that I never actually said on these forums. Where did I personally say that I thought these late round picks were going to be amazing? I straight up don't know much about any of them and I'm not afraid to admit that. I don't think it is necessarily wrong to have faith in the scouting department and the people that made the picks, because frankly there isn't really anything else you can do unless you go to these players games and watch their technique and know everything you can know about them. I can certainly understand not liking the Ingle Martin pick, even though I personally don't agree with it because I see value in a developmental QB, but it is a completely valid point to make that you don't think they needed a quarterback or that the pick was a reach.
     
  16. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Ingle Martin wouldn't go undrafted. Martin could of gone as high as round 3. Those were my words... That's the truth. Watch the combine if you need to. Find some clips on the net (if there are any free ones) Martin was a find pick.

    Also Round 5!! Every QB in round 5 is a development. Every QB taking is a development in the NFL.

    I've watched all these guys. I have film on all of them. Green Bay took one guy who likely would've went undrafted. That's Tony Moll.
     
  17. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    :roll:


    You are question numbers, not what GB did lol...
     
  18. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    I have seen plenty of Mocks and the earliest I saw Martin being projected is Mid 6th but most were "possible free agent". Please show me a mock where Martin was projected as a third.


    I am glad he can throw the ball 65 yards. When we get in a 3rd and 65 maybe we should bring him in. The guy litters the field with stray passes, couldn't cut it at Florida, and as inaccurate as they come on passes over 10 yards.

    He is a project that will never amount to anything in this league. Maybe he can beat out Tom Arth. Just my opinion, now bring it on all you INGLE LOVERS!
     
  19. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Your not going to find any reasonable mock drafts by going to Google and typing in NFL Mock Drafts. Half those guys aren't legit scouts and just draft junkies. So if that's your only sources then your pretty much in a no win situations cause junkies have very little draft creditability.

    Only sites we're you see good mock drafts are Scott Wrights Countdown which is free. He had him as a 4th round talent. Fantasy Football Jungle (who I write for, cheap plug) The rest you all have to pay for.

    You have to have ESPN Insider. They had Martin has one of their sleeper QB's. Heck NFL.com had him as your player to watch for at that position. That's saying something right there. Both have more creditability than any site on the net.

    Fact is he has a strong arm and shows accuracy. He's inconsistent but so are most rookie QB's. If your judging him from this past mini camp your sadly mistaken. Every rookie QB struggles. Leinart had problems at Cardinals camp. Young I'm sure will in Tennessee. Cutler as well. I'm not comparing Martin to them. He's not near that level but he has the potential be a starting QB in this league according to numerous scouts. He has the size, speed, and arm to play in the NFL. He needs work like all rookies do.

    He'll make the roster as the #3. Tom Arth won't beat him out for the #3. He'll be able to push Rodgers in the future likely. Martin actually rated out about the same as Cutler at the NFL Combine. Only Kellen Clemons had a better combine. Cutler was the #11 pick. Clemons went mid round 2.

    As for Florida. he was hurt and Leak came in and played well. He transferred afterwards because Leak was guaranteed the job by Ron Zook.
     
  20. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Hmmmm isnt Bob retiring this year? So that would mean in 3-4 years HE CANT replace TT..So does that mean you are WRONG?
     
  21. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Do you mean someone from a small school can never really amount to anything?

    Favre, Moss, Culpepper, Mcnair....List goes on and on of players from small schools..
     
  22. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Right. (I feel like that sidekick on Carson lol)

    It was basically Zook wanting his 'own' guy for QB.
     
  23. PackerSacker54

    PackerSacker54 Cheesehead

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    Prime example = Jerry Rice! :wink:
     
  24. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Where did that come from. Read the whole post before you accuse meof saying things. I love small school guys.

    The problem was at best heis a 3rd stringer this year and in the 5th round of a 4-12 teams draft we took a 3rd string "project".

    I don't like Martin, sorry. You can talk about the guys arm strength but his accuracy is awful. There are lots of STRONG ARM QB's that have never amounted to anything. I hope he comes in when we get in a 3rd and 65. After that you better take him out because is accuracy is awful.

    Love the guy all you want, it's a perfect feel good story for a QB from Furman to actually make it in the NFL, BUT, I am going to be realistic.


    Porky, how do you know what mock drafts I am looking at? How do you know that one mock is better than another? On Scotts's Wright draft Martin was the 20th rated QB. Omar Jacobs was taken after Martin and he rated him 5th. He also suggests that Martin would be available in Free Agency as did every other draft site I saw. It was a total reach on a team who could use something more than a 3rd String QB.
     
  25. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Who would you have taken instead?
     

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