1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!
    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers.

    You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

Ahmad Carroll - For Tromadz

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by TOPackerFan, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    2,084
    Ratings:
    +0
    Interesting to say the least.

    From Cliff Christl's blog at jsonline:

    "WEDNESDAY, Feb. 8, 2006, 11:37 a.m.
    Is Carroll better than you think?

    Most fans aren't going to believe this, but Ahmad Carroll isn't the only cornerback who seems to get toasted on a consistent basis. In fact, he's pretty far down the list among corners who got burned the most last season.

    Stats Premium Statistical Service among its many breakdowns of players has a catgeory that shows the number of times a defender was targeted by the offense and the number of times that defender got beat. Carroll was tied for 89th last season. There were 71 cornerbacks in the league burned more often than he was, including Atlanta's DeAngelo Hall, the eighth pick in the draft the year Carroll was drafted 25th; Marcus Trufant, Seattle's third-year corner and budding all-pro; Chris Gamble, who was chosen three picks after Carroll in '04; Ike Taylor, Pittsburgh's third-year starting corner; and even Mike McKenzie and Al Harris. Carroll was the targeted defender on 62 passes last season. He was burned 30 times for 432 yards.

    Taylor was burned 64 times for 900 yards; Hall, 60 times for 751 yards; Gamble, 54 times for 866 yards; Trufant, 50 times for 572 yards.

    That's the life of a cornerback in today's NFL. Even the best are going to get burned. And that's why many of Carroll's critics sound like babbling fools when they suggest that he's the only corner who ever gets beat. They even sound dumber when they criticize the draft pick. Gamble has struggled just as much as Carroll. Hall is in the Pro Bowl and he has had his problems.

    That's not to say Carroll has arrived as a starting cornerback or that he's even a solid starter at this point. Statistics aren't always an accurate barometer of a player's worth. But the jury is still out on Carroll. Like most young players, he wasn't a ready-made starter. He needs to grow up and improve his technique. But his biggest failing has been his propensity to get flagged, not any lack of ability. Carroll drew four pass interference calls last year to rank fourth in the league. He also had three holding penalties.

    Carroll has first-round ability. That's obvious. Whether he'll fulfill thatl potential remains to be seen. But he's not exactly way behind schedule."
     
  2. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    LOL, thanks TO!

    He is bad(imo) and I dont care what people say. Are people worse, sure. But a guy who is faster than the WR, but finds a need to hold (even when he practiced with boxing gloves on) and even tackle before the WR gets the ball is bad. He bites on PAs, and he tackles worse than Al Harris. The kid sucks...and thats it. He has cost us a lot of points, just by putting them in FG range with a long hold, or illegal contact, or hands to the face. He is small, and embarassing.

    but thats my opinion
     
  3. DakotaT

    DakotaT Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    810
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thank you for posting that TO. I have been defending this kid since day one. When he starts forcing turnovers, people are going to forget about all this. I disagree with Tromadz about his tackling ability also. He is a compacted player with freakish immeasurables. He is going to be very good some day.

    I think Packer fans want to compare Carroll to Mckenzie and Newsome as guys that came in day one a played well, and it really isn't fair to Ahmad. Newsome got to play on one of the greatest defenses ever assembled, and Mckenzie had Butler and a young Darren Sharper protecting his but. Physically, he has the whole package, but emotionally he has not yet arrived.

    Let's hope he has a breakout year next year.
     
  4. Chamuko

    Chamuko Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,067
    Ratings:
    +0
    Holding, Holding, Holding, Holding, Holding, Holding,,,,,,,, does this ring a bell?????

    Maybe he is not that that that very very very bad but we deserve better !!!
     
  5. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    I agree with Dakota and TO. Honestly, people are just to hard on this kid. He is ONLY 22/23. You tell me that at that age you were the most mature person, didn't act stupid or have a big head. He will learn. We have Al Harris to guide him (AND DIDN'T AL SAY HE ONCE USED TO BE LIKE CARROLL). Give this kid time. He improved last year, and I hope he can improve again. I believe in this kids abilities, he just has to learn to believe in them every single second of the game, which he hasn't learned yet. Once again, give him some more time. He is a work in progress, but by no means a finished product.

    Could we do better, well yes we could. But remember, we could do a whole lot worse than Carroll too (Thomas and Hawthorne ring a bell anyone?).
     
  6. subin

    subin Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2005
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +0
    Kinda (100%) off-topic here, but that article reminded me of this.

    I know I'm probably the only one on the board who finds that funny, but I can't help it.

    And oh yeah, I think Carroll can still be saved, he looked significantly better at the end of last season.
     
  7. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,904
    Ratings:
    +1
    I am with the positive side on Carroll. The calls on him have been frustrating but I think as he learns the NFL he can become a stud. CB is a thankless position.
     
  8. DakotaT

    DakotaT Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    810
    Ratings:
    +0
    One more thing about penalties, if Carroll played in Baltimore or New England, half of those ticky tack holding penalties he has received would have never been called.

    How many sacks have the Packers registered in the last two years. It seems to me that last year Al and Ahmad had pretty stellar years.
     
  9. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    all carrols INTs and FFs....oh yeah...

    he doesnt do anything like that. he holds, gets burned, makes an occasional tackle(then celebrates about it. cmon)

    I like to be positive too. You know that. i put positive spin on TTs moves, new coaches,etc...

    but ive seen carroll ruin too many games...

    sorry..he sucks.

    but this guy wants to compare Carroll to trufant,harris, even gamble and deangelo hall are much better...

    but he wrote it...so its true.
     
  10. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    not that you care, but a convo with one of my buddies:

    Tromadz (9:48:14 PM): this is an abuse of stats.
    Tromadz (9:48:48 PM): the fact carroll is even compared to harris,trufant, even gamble and deangelo hall is a joke
    friend (9:49:31 PM): that pisses me off because it doesn't tell half the story
    friend (9:49:39 PM): first of all, most of those guys are covering #1 receivers
    friend (9:49:53 PM): which not only explains being thrown at, but also getting beat and getting beat for big yardage
    friend (9:50:20 PM): it also doesn't say how many times all those guys were targeted
    friend (9:50:28 PM): it doesn't say how many passes those guys defended
    friend (9:50:34 PM): and what the ****...he's STILL 89th!
    Tromadz (9:50:35 PM): doesnt mention his holds,illegal hands either
    friend (9:50:41 PM): yep
    Tromadz (9:50:46 PM): but ahead of trufant and ****
    friend (9:50:54 PM): and the word targeted... I wanna know what that means
    Tromadz (9:50:55 PM): i bet the kid who cost the bears the playoff game
    Tromadz (9:50:57 PM): ranks better
    friend (9:51:09 PM): is that only in one on one matchups?
    Tromadz (9:51:31 PM): or what about zone
    friend (9:51:35 PM): what about when it's a zone and it is his fault? What about when it's in a coverage scheme where technically he's targeted but it's not necessarily his fault?
    Tromadz (9:51:38 PM): cuz they dont throw at guys in zone, they find the hole
    Tromadz (9:51:41 PM): yeah
    friend (9:51:57 PM): like someone was supposed to help because a 2nd WR was there, but nobody was there to help so the DB had to pick one guy or something
    friend (9:52:07 PM): There's just a lot that the guy doesn't mention
    friend (9:52:17 PM): which means he's one of those cocksuckers who makes statistical analysis look bad
     
  11. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    Carroll and Harris used to switch last year a lot. So for your belief that Carroll never covered any #1 WR's is not true. He did infact. Yes Harris was more so responsible for #1's, but Carroll did cover #1's such as Smith and Muhammad. And the fact is I am sure TO never meant to post this infering that stats show the real picture. Instead, I believe he meant that stats can help us see the other side of the picture, that Carroll is perhaps better then being crap.

    Can you honestly say that at age 22/23 you were mature, understanding, and not cocky? Can you honestly say you were able to hold your ego in check? Can you say that you learned your entire program you majored in, in just 2 years? I doubt it. So give Carroll a little more time then, it is only fair.
     
  12. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    All about da Pack said....

    "Can you honestly say that at age 22/23 you were mature, understanding, and not cocky? Can you honestly say you were able to hold your ego in check? Can you say that you learned your entire program you majored in, in just 2 years? I doubt it. So give Carroll a little more time then, it is only fair."

    Good one..all about...

    TT-romadz STILL can't say that.....!!

    That's why I find his posts so amusing.....It's like arguing with a child....
     
  13. mattresell

    mattresell Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    424
    Ratings:
    +0
    This is good stuff-looking at the numbers rather than simply relying on what you think you might see with your eyes.
     
  14. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    Ding ding ding! I smell a FIGHT a'brewin'!!!
    Back into your corners, and come out SWINGIN!
     
  15. JbShell

    JbShell Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    796
    Ratings:
    +0
    Well I look at it like this traditionally corners take 3-4 years to hit the stride from a mental aspect and understanding of the game. Carroll could still turn that corner
     
  16. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    2,084
    Ratings:
    +0
    Carroll is not a finished product, but he still has a shot to be a solid starter. I think this is the point Christl was trying to make, and I happen to agree.
     
  17. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,078
    Ratings:
    +0
    Here is how I wrote it up for Packer Chatters:

    One of the points that frequently is repeated by people who understand football is "that CB often operate on an Island" -- particularly when they play press coverage and when a team is forced or choses to blitz.

    Earlier this week Cliff Christl used blog space to take a look at how Ahmad Carroll ranks and concluded that Carroll is probably better than many fans think -- certainly a # who frequent this forum.

    I have frequently stated that a plain and simple fact of life in the NFL is -- if you play corner back you are going to get burned... and not just once or twice, rather on a frequent enough basis that your confidence will be challenged.

    Since this is a fact that all teams need to cope with -- coaches and players understand this far better than most fans -- it is interesting to look at the numbers. This is exactly what Christl did by taking a look at Stats Premium Statistical Service -- which breaksdown players in a # of ways, including a catgeory that shows the number of times a defender was targeted by the offense and the number of times that defender got beat.

    For those of you who did not read Cliff's blog or look at this category --

    WHERE DO YOU THINK CARROLL RANKED???????????

    On the targeted/burned scale Carroll ranked tied for 89th. There were 71 cornerbacks in the league burned more often than Carroll was, including Atlanta's DeAngelo Hall, the eighth pick in the draft the year Carroll was drafted 25th; Marcus Trufant, Seattle's third-year corner and budding all-pro; Chris Gamble, who was chosen three picks after Carroll in '04; Ike Taylor, Pittsburgh's third-year starting corner; and even Mike McKenzie and Al Harris.

    Carroll was the targeted defender on 62 passes last season. He was burned 30 times for 432 yards;

    Taylor was burned 64 times for 900 yards;
    Hall, 60 times for 751 yards;
    Gamble, 54 times for 866 yards;
    Trufant, 50 times for 572 yards.


    So if "that's the life of a cornerback in today's NFL," why are so many fans ready to give up on a talented 22 year old kid who hits hard and is obviously growing and improving? Carroll has struggled to learn the game on a Professional level and has had to do a great deal of growing up. This like all growth has not come without growing pains, and nowhere is this more evident than in his propensity to draw flags -- last season he drew four pass interference calls last year and had three holding penalties.

    While Carroll is not exactly ready to be seriously pondered for Pro Bowl consideration by a long shot, he has not exactly been a first round bust either as many have suggested. I still like this kid's ability and see plenty of upside, these stats seem to support that observation/opinion.
     
  18. Buckeyepackfan

    Buckeyepackfan Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    804
    Ratings:
    +0
    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

    That's all I have to say on this subject. I think you will find this true about a lot of the young guys on the Packers.

    Their biggest downfall in somes eyes is that they were drafted by the "Evil Mike Sherman" so no matter how well they play, "They Still Suck"

    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
     
  19. Lare

    Lare Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    705
    Ratings:
    +0
    I wonder where Carroll ranks when you add the number of times penalized to the number of times burned? It seems to me they would have to go together, as a CB probably won't get burned if he is holding.

    You know, everyone keeps saying Carroll's young, give him time to grow and mature, he'll only get better. That may be true, but in the meantime we're paying him millions of dollars per year and in a year or so he'll be a free agent that may be gone.

    IMO, he needs to do his job or we need to find somebody who can. And I've still never seen a player who's play was affected by who drafted him.
     
  20. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    Lare, when you say Carroll could potentially leave you are correct. But that is the case with anyone. Infact, J-walk could leave after this year too. What is stopping him? Same with Carroll. He could leave, but it is useless to think about something such as this, since that is common with every player that is drafted. What is going for the Packers is that they have continuity on the scheme finally, and going to another team would mean starting from scratch. Players wouldn't prefer to do that IMO.

    And I think Carroll is trying to do his job to the best of his ability. Obviously you wouldn't ask Favre to go out there and tackle who ever gets the ball (but by past celebrations, perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to send Brett out to tackle on D :D). Carroll is going out there and trying to do what the coaches are asking him to do. He improved a lot last year, and lets hope he can continue to improve. Remember, this kid wasn't even an all out football athlete in college, he was passionate and interested in track, and played football on the side. So therefore his learning curve in the NFL is even steeper than normal. It will take him some time, but I believe he will eventually "get it".
     
  21. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    I for one would MUCH rather see Carrol turn out to be great! Will it happen? I don't know...........if it does, hopefully it will be SOONER then later. I don't care WHO picked him, just that he's good!
     
  22. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,000
    Ratings:
    +3
    im not paid millions of dollars to do any of that stuff. HE IS.
     
  23. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    Trom I know he is paid the millions. But lets face it, was it Carroll that set the bar for how much sports players make? No.

    And as I said before, Carroll's first passion was track. His athletic ability is what led him onto the football field. Did he choose the NFL because of the amount of money he could make? Probably. But the fact is that if you were in the same position as Carroll, you would probably choose to go the route that he went, for the simple fact that there is no better way to make money. And not to take a shot at you, but almost anyone would go that route. I would probably take that route before you could finish your sentence explaining to me what problems I would potentially face.
     
  24. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    11,903
    Ratings:
    +8
    Hopefully the kid pans out.

    thats all i have to say
     
  25. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    I agree. And in order for him to pan out, he needs time. And time entails patience. Trom, who gotta be patient with Carroll. Give him a chance to learn, and then judge him. Don't judge him based on his rookie season.
     

Share This Page