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Ahmad Carroll - For Tromadz

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by TOPackerFan, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    IMO he was much better in the last half of last year. Fewer penalties and much better coverage. I thought he turned the corner there towards the latter part of the season.
    I think this will be the year that shows if he's going to make it as a starter in this league after two under his belt. Unless we go into FA we are pretty much stuck as it would be a disaster to throw a rookie in there. Especially with as much time has been invested in developing this guy.
     
  2. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I'd like to see what he's capable of playing behind a pass rush too. The guy has never had the benefit of having a DL which is able to get pressure only with the front 4. It's amazing how much better corners look when they only have to cover for 2-3 seconds as opposed to 4-5.
     
  3. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    There are 64 starting CB in the league and 71 got burned more often than Carroll. Carroll is a starting CB and if he were on the market there is not a single team in the league who would not snap him up in a nano-second -- more than half the teams to make him an instant starter.

    Again, he has plenty of growing and improving to do, but that is to be expected from a talented 22 year old just entering his 3rd year in the league.

    And tromadz, he will not be a UFA after this season, he will be a RFA after next (2007) season and a UFA after 2008 if he is not resigned before then.
    And the name calling is more than a little over the top. He got in a fight with Thomas, who was cut for being insubordinate and a negative influence on the team. Carroll grew up a lot last season and hopefully will continue to do so. The coaching staff kept him on a short leash and hopefully the new staff will as well. But do not forget CBs need swagger -- it can be a fine line sometimes -- the worst thing that a CB can do is to lose their confidence.
     
  4. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I think theres WAY too much "testosterone" on this site. Banging chests and slinging names at each other. But i guess some people like that kind of thing. It does NOTHING for me.
    I'd HATE to see what would happen if you put some of the members on this site in a room together......would they KILL each other? I wonder.......
     
  5. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    WOW, cheesey...KILL EACH OTHER?...now that's bringing it to another level!

    ATTABOY!!!
     
  6. retiredgrampa

    retiredgrampa Cheesehead

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    I have no statisical evidence to use here. I tend to go with the flow, of a player's game. i.e. is he showing improvement? Is he giving it his "all"? I think most of us here will agree that he is doing both. What more can we demand of a player? As a CB, he is facing the ultimate challenge every play, whether it's a run or a pass. Yet he's not backing down. That's pretty damned mature for a 22/23 yr. old kid. What else do we want? Perfection? Sure, I demand perfection as soon as I also achieve it. Not before. Don't forget, he's asked to excel while facing great players on the other side. He gets no "gimmees". The fact that he has shown improvement is enough for me to cut him a lot of slack. Frankly, I look for him to have a better year again, especially if the Pack can somehow find a pass-rush.
     
  7. gopackgo4

    gopackgo4 Cheesehead

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    maybe so but he doesnt get burned cuz he is on top of the guy
     
  8. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    why is his age an excuse? Is he the only young man that was involved in the draft? No, they are all reasonably young men. They know what is expected of them when they sign on the dotted line, and get that big paycheck. Some of them pan out, and some of them are busts. Guess which one we got.
     
  9. Buckeyepackfan

    Buckeyepackfan Cheesehead

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    Four pages of posts on this thread and I see only two people who don't want to give Carrol a chance to keep improving.

    Well I guess he has to go since "The New Order" says he is trash and sucks.

    The narrow minded and ignorant will never admit when they are wrong.

    You would think that the Carroll haters would want him to stay around so they can have someone to blame when "The TT overhaul" doesn't turn The Packers into immediate winners.
     
  10. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    His age has everything to do with it. I matured immesurably from the time I was 22 to the ripe old 28 that I am now (though my fiancee may argue that I still have a way to go). The guy is also just learning how to play pro football. He played three years at a place where his God-given athletic ability allowed him to overcome any breakdowns in his technique (not the case in the pros). I think he's getting better and once he matures a bit, physically, mentally and in terms of technique, I think he'll be a solid starter. He may never go to a Pro Bowl but I'll think of him as a success if he becomes a solid starter (which is really all you can expect drafting at the end of the first round).
     
  11. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    Im going to assume im the narrow minded and ignorant, buckeye.

    This isnt about me admitting im wrong. I am wrong on certain things, and my opinions might not be the same as yours. grow up.

    this isnt about me loving TT to death and making excuses for him, or giving him a scapegoat in case his tenure fails.

    This is about me wanting the best for the Packers. If we have a bad safety(Mark Roman), I want him gone. If we have a bad WR(ferguson), I want him gone. If we have a bad CB (carroll) i want him gone. If we have a bad coach(sherman, maybe mccarthy after we see what he does with the team), I want him gone.

    I could care less who drafted him and who signed him.

    Some of you are so blind you think Carroll is good?! Not even "not bad" but "good" for NO reason at all, except he IS a packer.

    But I am narrow minded and ignorant?

    Dont get me wrong, I hope he matures, turns out well, and we re-sign him for 5 years. But...thats not going to happen. He still celebrates after tackles. He still gets burned by WRs. He still has an attitude. He still gets penalty after penalty.

    Why am I so negative? He has shown me NO REASON to believe in him. Gado, is the anti-carroll. Gado came out of nowhere, and did his best (I do believe carroll is trying his best, its just not NFL quality) Gado had no real past that would excite you, but he proved himself to be a quality back. Not only that, but in a short amount of time! But with carroll, we are supposed to wait...and wait...and now we are entering year 3 and people still want to give him a chance.

    But he is athletic, and fast. That is an argument people use. Athleticism and speed mean nothing if you have no talent. That is why Carroll is twice as frustrating as any other bad player. He can keep up with WRs, he can probably jump higher than some of them, but he chooses to hold,pass interfere, and bump people.

    But I am only one of four people who think we should get rid of him, so I am narrow minded and ignorant. Whatever you say.
     
  12. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    1. Carroll is fast but is not as good as some at jumping for the ball. More than his small stature would account.

    2. Like previous posters the article omitted penalty yards and first downs from penalties which aggravate fans when they are especially needless penalties on uncatchable passes.

    3. The article omitted "sportmanship" and "citizenship". When addressing a concern to one of the officials one should not inquire "Why you do me like that, dog?".....repeatedly.

    4. Carroll failed to concern himself with offseason workouts and optional opportunity sessions(with new defense and new coordinator).

    5. Who got beat out and was not a starter until an injury affected his replacement.

    Despite 1-5 I am hopeful as Carroll had an attitude adjustment during the season that was what he needed the most. His attitude was remarkably improved after the cutting of Joey Thomas.

    Since that event he has kept his mouth shut often when it used to flap, fewer taunts and boyish gestures, and increased concentration. The cutting of Thomas did more for Carroll than boxing gloves ever did.

    I still hope the first round pick in 2007 will bench him for good but he is getting better. He is a lot better than the nontackling space cadet "Pacman" Jones who was 1st round pick of Titans in 05.
     
  13. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Different people have different opinions.............thats what makes life more interesting. I would just hope we could all get along. (words of wisdom from Rodney King!)LOLOL!!! :lol:
     
  14. calicheesehead

    calicheesehead Cheesehead

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    He has been improving, I can honestly say that. The report doesn't take into account that when the opponents were up on us they ran the ball for more clock control thus Caroll faced less of an air attack than others in the stat list. I hope he does work out because we need talent back there. His maturity seems to be improving last year as well. He actually showed that he could be a bit humble as well.
     
  15. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    My professionally n00b intern reporter paper weight sectary of my second cousins pet fish told me AHMAD CARROLL FOR MVP OF THE NFL is a sure thing!
     
  16. Buckeyepackfan

    Buckeyepackfan Cheesehead

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    Somewhere between He sucks and MVP is where Carrol falls, not a pro-bowler but definately better then what we can pick up in free agency or the draft.
     
  17. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    He actually is quite good at jumping -- but you are right his trust in his ability and instinct for going for the ball are a growth area for him. Of course all but less than a hand full of NFL CB have significant growth areas and most of them are not 22 years old.

    No, the penalties were included read the original post, I also included them in what I wrote -- for a complete look at his penalties:

    Illegal use of Hands 3 times
    9/11 at Detroit all 3 penalties

    Pass Interference 3 times
    10/3 at Car
    10/30 at Cinc
    11/13 at Atl

    Defensive Holding 1 time
    12/11 vs Det

    Delay of Game
    10/30 at Cinc

    Offsides
    10/30 at Cinc

    He also had 2 other penalties that were declined
    9/11 Holding at Det
    10/30 Pass Interference at Cinc

    Interesting that 6 of his 9 called penalties and 8 of his 10 total penalties came in 2 games. Also of note was only 2 penalties in last 9 games.


    Actually that seems to be a point of agreement by all concerned, that he was a young immature kid thrust into a man's job at a position that you play on an island -- he suffered in the cluster fluck defense that Slowik put on the field at 20 years old and showed significant improvement in 2005 under Bates -- especially as the season progressed.

    This is only half right. Carroll worked out in the offseason and no one ever accused him of being out of shape -- he wasn't. The mistake he made was not taking advantage of optional opportunity sessions, which to his credit he owned up to and called a mistake -- again a sign of his growing and maturing.

    He was being taught a lesson by good coaching by Bates and Sherman -- there was never a doubt that if he took them serious that he would regain his job because he was more than twice the player then the one they put in front of him and ultimately cut.

    If the Pack drafts a CB in the first in 2007 it will be to replace Harris not Carroll. Even servicable CB are very hard to find in the NFL -- something that the stats from the original article would seem to support and the big money thrown at CB every offseason in FA further supports. Carroll is far better than a servicable CB -- he is currently a decent #2 CB on a team with incredible physical tools and a huge upside.

    Carroll would be a great one to use the classic Mark Twain the line, "Rumors Of My Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated ."
     
  18. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    No, the Packers despite their poor record were not blown out of games -- they were competetive in all but the Baltimore blowout and for a good example look at the two MN games where they were only beaten by MN on the last play of the game both times. Carroll was targeted less because he was not seen as a weak link by offensive coordinators. His impressive stats and improved play happened despite having a rookie safety lined up behind him and a less than credible pass rush. All one needs to do is take off their super powered deficit glasses and look at objective numbers like this this thread has put forth and factor in the obvious improved play as the season progressed (see penalty distribution) and a 22 year old drafted near the end of the 1st round coming into his 3rd season in the league starts to look much brighter than the gloom and doom he sucks and needs to be replaced. In fact he doesn't even come close to making the top 10 list of positions in need of improvement on the Packers if you look at it objectively.

    And you are correct his maturity grew as did his playing ability.
     
  19. calicheesehead

    calicheesehead Cheesehead

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    Never said blown out of games. Most defenses, especially as the season wore on, knew how to play us. Don't worry about the run, double team Donald, and run the ball. That's all I'm saying.
     
  20. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    The 2005 offensive implosion by the Packers, due to injuries, actually are more facts that bodes well for the improved play of the defense and Carroll. The fact that the offense had more 3 and outs than any Packer squad since Forrest Gregg and that they had an inordinate number of turnovers (both inteceptions and fumbles) puts more pressure on Carroll and the defense not less. (after leading the conference in offense the season before)

    I don't think you and I are even disagreeing calicheesehead, but running teams run the ball and passing teams pass the ball. And even then, Atlanta led the NFC in rushing, but in their loss to the Packers threw for more yards and got more first downs passing than rushing against the Packers in the 2nd half of the season.

    Efforts to diminish Carroll's very noticeable improvements in all areas are not supported by the numbers or the circumstances of 2005 performance.
     
  21. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    Bruce, I appreciate your wanting accuracy. However, taken to extremes you argue minor points of language(I did look up the difference when Bill Clinton would admit to inappropriate conduct but not improper with Monica). Posts would start to look like lawyerly speeches. My post was guilty of this because a newspaper article is not a study.

    The penalty yards were not compared to the other players. Probably space concerns. I should not have said not mentioned but rather not compared.

    I never implied Carroll was out of shape physically I was pointing out another aspect of his attitude and the criticism by some of his lack of desire to accept coaching.

    Willingness to accept coaching and desire to improve are not characteristics of Carroll. I question how much he will improve in his career. At this point I see Hawkins desire and willingness to accept coaching making him a likely successor to Al Harris.

    I don't anticipate the Packers going to the Super Bowl with Carroll as a starting CB. After this season I think the Packers will be looking to upgrade positions not addressed in this year's CB being the most important(also OT, TE, QB). Of course I may be wrong but it is my opinion.
     
  22. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Jeez California..

    (You must spend your whole day everyday looking up all the inappropriate sh*t and legal-eze that the current administration uses....)

    When do you have time to work or post on this site?
     
  23. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Cheez....if I felt the way you do about Carroll I sure as hell would not be happy with the Packers waiting til next year to upgrade. If he sucks replace his a$$ now...not 2007. The priorities of TT should be to replace everyone that sucks THIS SEASON. Personally, I don't think he sucks. I'm not going to put him in the pro bowl yet but I think the potential is there.

    This whole argument reminds me of the situation in Philly with Al Harris. Same thing, too many penalties, get's burned too much, too cocky. I think Harris is now one of the best in the NFL. I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Carroll but so far his career has started the same way. Harris was only a nickel back in Philly, playing behind Troy Vincent and Bobby Taylor. He didn't get as much experience early on as Carroll has. I think this early experience will pay off big time.
     
  24. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    What do you base that on? the Packers won a Super Bowl with Craig Newsome and Doug Evans playing CB -- neither had the talent that Carroll possesses.

    They lost a Super Bowl with Tyrone Williams and Doug Evans as the starting CBs -- see above.

    You are basing your analysis on what again??? You write: Willingness to accept coaching and desire to improve are not characteristics of Carroll. Jim Bates and his position coach disagreed with you by season's end and his improved play does belie your take on this kid.

    I agree that we are each entitled to our opinions -- I responded to your post not to pick it apart but because I thought you might want to deal with a more accurate picture. Note the areas of agreement I found between us.



     
  25. paxvogel

    paxvogel Cheesehead

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    We ran Terrell Buckley off the same way and he was a productive 14 year veteran.
     

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