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OFFICIAL DEFENSIVE ISSUES THREAD

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Southpaw, Nov 6, 2011.

  1. PackersRS
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    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Yet our defense allowed just 19 points to KC.

    Not saying they didn't have blame for this loss, they did (KC's offense is crap), but I believe it's unanimous that if the D helds the opposition to 19 points, we should win the game.

    A lot of people, with merit, saying that it's the offense that took us to 15-1. Well, same reasoning applied, it was the offense that costed us the game at KC.

    Our last 3 losses, 2 of them had the OL shuffling positions (Colledge played LT against the Lions, and against KC we were without 3 OTs), in one of them our QB went down, and the other game we were without him.

    Think about it, the last 25 games we played (starting against SF at home), we've gone 22-3, and those 3 losses had some bizarre set of circumstances, the loss to the Lions the OL shuffled like crazy and Rodgers went down, the loss to the Patriots we played without Rodgers, and it took a bizarre Olinemen return (and a pick 6) for us to lose, and against KC we were without the best offensive weapon and without the top 3 OTs.

    And one can make a case that, with all the defensive issues, it was the offense responsible for those losses.

    Moreso, if the OL can hold, I'm very confident we win the game. Any game.
  2. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    I agree that holding KC to just 19 points should have resulted in a win for the Packers, especially considering how good our offense is. But you also have to think about how bad their offense is, which I believe skews the defensive numbers a bit. Against a better offense that scores TD's and not FG's, this game winds up a blow out if they dominate the clock like KC did.
  3. ThxJackVainisi
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    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I particularly like the last two sentences of one of SpartaChris' previous posts:


    The Packers offense obviously struggled against KC and certainly on a team averaging 35 ppg, when the D holds the opponents to 19 points you’d expect a win. However, KC did get a boost before that game: A fresh start with a new and competent HC along with a competent QB. IMO that wasn’t the same KC offense or team that they been putting out on the field for most of this season. In addition the defensive scheme took advantage of the Packers’ injuries on offense going into that game. But hey, no excuses: Somehow the Packers will have to live with a 15-1 regular season record!

    I was looking for NFL team QB pressure stats (if anyone knows of a source for this stat, I’d really appreciate them sharing it) and ran across a posting about BJ Raji not deserving his pro bowl spot this season. IMO it was overly harsh but I do agree with the idea that BJ has not played as well as he did last year and it’s not just because of the absence of Jenkins or because he faces constant double teams, because he doesn’t. Raji’s job isn’t just to take up blockers and play the run, it’s to get consistent inside pressure so the QB can’t constantly feel comfortable stepping up in the pocket. I don’t how many “jet” rushes have been called for Raji this season compared to last, but I do know he’s not performing them as well as he did last year.

    As far as a dominating MLB I don’t think Barnett was one but I also think some Packers fans were unreasonably critical of him. IMO Bishop beat Barnett out in Capers’ scheme, so Capers didn’t consider him more dominant or Barnett would still be here. I don’t think Bishop has played as well as he did last year either. As far as Hawk being undersized, I’m not sure that’s true (he’s listed at about 10 pounds heavier than Bishop and 15 lbs heavier than Barnett) and even if it is, I don’t think that’s his problem. IMO he’s too stiff at times and not instinctive enough. He doesn’t show the explosion he showed in college IMO and he struggles in coverage. Of course I favor his spot being upgraded but I don’t think the missing link on the Packers D is a dominant inside LB. IMO it’s the obvious problem; lack of effective pass rushers to team with Clay. IMO that’s the hole that has to be addressed in the offseason: An effective pass rusher for the front 7, whether that player plays any spot on the DL or any of the LB spots.
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  4. 13 Times Champs
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    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    You can spin this around but it doesn't alter the fact that we have a poor defense. Really going back to games 13 and 14 last year? Where did that Packer defense rank last season. Where does it rank this season? How many of the 15 games does one think we would have won this year without an offense that has averaged 35 pts per game? In 9 of the 15 games the Packers won the defense gave up more points than the standard of 19 refered to. I'll blame the offense for one loss if the defense gets the blame for abysmal play the other 15.
  5. GreenBlood
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    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Nah... you're right. Maybe we should just trade Matthews and Woodson for a draft pick or two. They don't make much difference anyway. [​IMG]

    Let's see... we lead the NFL in takeaways. With our whole defense on the field AND playing 100% only 11 teams had allowed fewer points. Sure, we can't stop anyone. Whatever you say, Chief. Let me guess, you're another one of those guys who thinks yards allowed are the most important thing. Takeaways, redzone defense, those things are meaningless I suppose.
  6. GreenBlood
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    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    *yawn*
  7. Raptorman
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    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    Check your stats, 18 teams allowed fewer points per game. Some important ones to remember, Niners, 14.2, Steelers 14.2, Ravens 16.6, Texans 17.4. Well as a matter of fact every playoff team except the Giants allowed the other team to score less points than the Packers did. But keep thinking that the interceptions by the Packers against teams like the Vikings and Panthers are going to help the Packers in the playoffs. How many did Brees throw that first game? How many did Orton throw in the KC game? Of the playoff teams left in the game, the Packers have played two of the QB's, and have 1 interception off them. Those 31 during the year don't mean squat at this point.

    And for the record.

    Green Bay. 31 int 7 fumbles = 38
    Niners. 23 int 15 fumbles = 38

    BTW, the niners win the turnover differental for the year.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/givetake
  8. thepackerestofbackers
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    thepackerestofbackers Cheesehead

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    It's definitely worrisome. Don't know why Tramon has fallen off... I'm kind of willing to give Shields a pass seeing as how second year players need that extended training camp, but...

    We really miss Collins.
  9. GreenBlood
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    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Prior to the meaningless game last week, only 11 teams had allowed fewer points. Oh, wait. That's right. You're the guy who thinks Matthews and Woodson don't add much to the defense. That, and the fact that our main goal was to come out of the game without injuries and so we intentionally played soft.

    Thanks for confirming my earlier point. I said we led the league in takeaways. I never said the Niners didn't do so as well.
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  10. GBPack2010
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    GBPack2010 Cheesehead

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    I see 2 things this defense is bad at. Pressure obviously as many have stated. Raji and Matthews are neutralized by double teams, chips etc while no one else can beat their man in one on one situations. The occasional Bishop/Woodson blitz does create pressure but it's nice if base defense did well. I don't think our secondary is bad at all. They have the skills and speed to go toe to toe with any offensive set. When no pressure is generated, it's hard to keep up with all receivers and there is heavy confusion in secondary maybe due to Collins' absence maybe not. "Correlation but no causation to prove that."

    The 2nd thing I have a problem with is run defense. We give up 4.7 yards a carry. That is not good. Tackling could be better at initial contact to limit carries to 4- yards would be nice. We get Ryan Pickett back to anchor a side of the line which should help immensely against the better OG/OT in the playoffs. If run defense can hold, even the elite QB like Brees or Brady are due to make 1 if not more mistakes against a ballhawk secondary.
  11. grampi
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    grampi Cheesehead

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    The old cleche "defense wins championships" is outdated. The 3 best teams in the NFL right now (Packers, Saint, Pats) happen to have the 3 worst defenses in the league....so apparently the new cleche is "offense wins championships"....
  12. grampi
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    grampi Cheesehead

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    Yeah, but the other part of that formula, which you failed to mention, is the Packer's opponent must be able to stop the Packer O from scoring when they do get the ball. You can have a TOP for 45 of the 60 minutes, but if the Pack scores every time they get the ball they're still gonna win....The Colts did this very scenario that not too long ago (when Payton was playing of course)....
  13. 13 Times Champs
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    *yawn*
  14. PackersXLV
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    It has it's moments of dread. The largest difference from last year and this year is the pass rush, Nick Collins and Cullen Jenkins. I witness NFL, ESPN analysts and non-packer fans put too much emphasis on rankings because they don't watch every game like we do. Our defense is very opportunistic and stingy in the red zone, even if we give up a ton of yards. We have the play makers and pro bowlers on defense, it's up to our front seven, and Capers schemes. I never see any press coverage on receivers to give our front seven more time to get to the quarterback. Every game, I see the Packers blitzing and always coming up a split second late, press coverage can change this.
    They'll be fine, I trust our players on defense and Capers creativity. He's had 19 weeks to get this defense figured out.
  15. PackersRS
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    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    You do know that the only reason the Packers were the #1 scoring team was because the defense scored 5 tds of their own (3rd in the league) right? And because the defense was #1 in turnovers, getting the offense 33 extra possessions, right???
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  16. 13 Times Champs
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    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Yep the offense owes it's lofty status to the defense. :rolleyes:
  17. PackersRS
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    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Yes it does. The same way it's part the offense's fault that the Packers D leads the league in passing plays against. It also leads the league in batted passes, but nobody talks about that. It's evident that one affects another and vice-versa, I shouldn't be reminding people about it...

    I'm done with this debate. We'll renew this discussion after the playoffs. I'll make sure of it.
  18. GreenBlood
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    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I accept your concession of my point.
  19. 13 Times Champs
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    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    As you did mine.
  20. 13 Times Champs
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    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Why after the playoffs? If they play better in the playoffs it doesn't change the way they've played all year. Hell they have a lot of making up to do in my opinion. I have watched all 16 games and am amazed at your argument. I'm sorry but I don't think there are many out there saying our defense is the reason the offense is so good. All season I've seen receivers uncovered in the secondary, no pass rush, poor tackling. It is last in passing yards, allows 4.7 yards per rush 30th in first downs allowed and drum roll please, last in defense. Meanwhile the offense has been one of the best in NFL history. Our QB will win the MVP...I guess because of the defense. :giggle: I think it is disingenious and frankly dishonest to not give our offense proper credit for what they have accomplished.
  21. PackersRS
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    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    When did I take the credit away from the offense? When I said they had 33 extra possessions because of the defense? When I said that the 5 defensive TDs (and 1 ST TD) added to make this the #1 offense in points?

    If you can't comprehend the argument that what the D did influenced the offense and vice versa then don't comment, but don't put words in my mouth.
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  22. Croak
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    Some things in life are a paradox. To our eyes this defense looks poor. Yet 15-1 is the best stat of all and it's hard to argue with that stat. Would I like to see a powerful shut down defense from the Packers? Absolutely. But I can hardly complain about 15-1.
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  23. PackersRS
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    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Context? Who needs context when we have yardage rankings?

    Ok, this is my last post about this.
  24. 13 Times Champs
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    Did I misunderstand this statement by you?

    "You do know that the only reason the Packers were the #1 scoring team was because the defense scored 5 tds of their own (3rd in the league) right?"

    What I am reading into the above and the comment that our offense was the reason for the last three loses is going to extreme limits to defend what is a pourous defense. I think the offense has acquited itself very well.
  25. PackersRS
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    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Yes, I believe you did. I'm not saying the defense is responsible for the great performance by the offense. What I'm saying is that, without the D's TDs, the Packers wouldn't be #1 in scoring.

    We scored 560 points. Take away the 5 defensive TDs, and it's 525 points. The Saints scored 547, take away their 3 defensive TDs, and it's 526 points, which would make them the #1 scoring offense.

    I'm not saying the offense is good because of the defense, I'm not saying the defense doesn't have problems. What I'm saying is that the rankings are subjective because they lack context. And the point regarding the 3 losses is true, if you go by the logic that the offense is the sole reason we won all those games.

    I don't agree with either logic, that the defense is porous, and that the offense was the reason we won the games, the same way I don't agree that it was the offense that costed us the game. There's much more to it than just yardage. There're reasons the defense gave so many yardage, poor play is one of them, but the other factors, mainly the fact that they've been thrown against more than any other, are completely forgotten when discussing the defense.

    There're problems with this defense. The safety play has been terrible, without Collins there's no way to hide Peprah, he's going to be a liability. The DL play has been abysmal, the only good play has been Pickett, and only against the run. The ROLB spot has been nonexistent. Hawk is still a liability covering man-to-man.

    But there's plenty of great in this D. Woodson is still good for 2 game changing plays per game. He still needs to be acounted for in every play. Matthews is a beast, a better player than last year. He's been so good that offenses have to stay away from him at all times. They don't run to his side, they don't bootleg to his side, they rarely leave him one-on-one. Tramon Williams has struggled the whole year, but he is finally healthy and able to play bumb and run. Bishop appears to be healthy again, with him and Pickett this run D is stout. And there's still Capers calling the plays.

    Not counting the last game played without the 2 best and most important players, we were #11 in points per game, #1 in turnovers, #2 in scoring defense, #8 in QB rating, and #7 in redzone defense at home (don't have the stats for overall redzone defense by week 16). Hardly a "porous" defense.

    McCarthy and Capers don't care for yardage rankings, and they've said so. If you look at the past MM pressers, he specifically mentioned turnovers and QB rating when talking about the defense. Those, together with rushing attempts against (5th in the league), are the stats that reflect the defensive philosophy of this team.

    This Packers team has some building principles, but it's mainly about winning the turnover battle. The offense is built around exploiting mismatches in the passing game and taking care of the football at all times. The defense is built around forcing turnovers, usually by confusing and pressuring the QB, and by preventing the opposing team of controlling the game with the running game. Thus the importance of the rushing attempts against, instead of the YPC or the rushing yards (though it would be optimal if all three were great, but without Pickett we couldn't stop a nosebleed). Another key component of this team is redzone play and 3rd down conversion (where we've struggled, but more on that later).

    It would be awesome if the D was playing to last year's standards. It would be awesome if they were a stout D in all areas. But that's unrealistic. The D has done it's part, overall. It has limited teams to being one dimensional, with Pickett. It has forced mistakes galore. Like I said before, they need to do a much better job on 3rd downs. I think this is the one key area of improvement needed for the playoffs, and one I'm confident will get corrected, with all players being healthy and with Capers having enough film from the season to know what works and what doesn't. But, again, because of everything I've said, the D has played well overall. Not saying they've been great, they haven't, but for what they're asked to do, they rank top 12 in most areas.

    Just looking at the yards given up and saying this is a porous D is well beyond short sighted. Now I'm done. No, for real, I mean it this time.

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