OFFICIAL DEFENSIVE ISSUES THREAD

13 Times Champs

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
3,924
Reaction score
424
Location
Virginia
Yes, I believe you did. I'm not saying the defense is responsible for the great performance by the offense. What I'm saying is that, without the D's TDs, the Packers wouldn't be #1 in scoring.

We scored 560 points. Take away the 5 defensive TDs, and it's 525 points. The Saints scored 547, take away their 3 defensive TDs, and it's 526 points, which would make them the #1 scoring offense.

I'm not saying the offense is good because of the defense, I'm not saying the defense doesn't have problems. What I'm saying is that the rankings are subjective because they lack context. And the point regarding the 3 losses is true, if you go by the logic that the offense is the sole reason we won all those games.

I don't agree with either logic, that the defense is porous, and that the offense was the reason we won the games, the same way I don't agree that it was the offense that costed us the game. There's much more to it than just yardage. There're reasons the defense gave so many yardage, poor play is one of them, but the other factors, mainly the fact that they've been thrown against more than any other, are completely forgotten when discussing the defense.

There're problems with this defense. The safety play has been terrible, without Collins there's no way to hide Peprah, he's going to be a liability. The DL play has been abysmal, the only good play has been Pickett, and only against the run. The ROLB spot has been nonexistent. Hawk is still a liability covering man-to-man.

But there's plenty of great in this D. Woodson is still good for 2 game changing plays per game. He still needs to be acounted for in every play. Matthews is a beast, a better player than last year. He's been so good that offenses have to stay away from him at all times. They don't run to his side, they don't bootleg to his side, they rarely leave him one-on-one. Tramon Williams has struggled the whole year, but he is finally healthy and able to play bumb and run. Bishop appears to be healthy again, with him and Pickett this run D is stout. And there's still Capers calling the plays.

Not counting the last game played without the 2 best and most important players, we were #11 in points per game, #1 in turnovers, #2 in scoring defense, #8 in QB rating, and #7 in redzone defense at home (don't have the stats for overall redzone defense by week 16). Hardly a "porous" defense.

McCarthy and Capers don't care for yardage rankings, and they've said so. If you look at the past MM pressers, he specifically mentioned turnovers and QB rating when talking about the defense. Those, together with rushing attempts against (5th in the league), are the stats that reflect the defensive philosophy of this team.

This Packers team has some building principles, but it's mainly about winning the turnover battle. The offense is built around exploiting mismatches in the passing game and taking care of the football at all times. The defense is built around forcing turnovers, usually by confusing and pressuring the QB, and by preventing the opposing team of controlling the game with the running game. Thus the importance of the rushing attempts against, instead of the YPC or the rushing yards (though it would be optimal if all three were great, but without Pickett we couldn't stop a nosebleed). Another key component of this team is redzone play and 3rd down conversion (where we've struggled, but more on that later).

It would be awesome if the D was playing to last year's standards. It would be awesome if they were a stout D in all areas. But that's unrealistic. The D has done it's part, overall. It has limited teams to being one dimensional, with Pickett. It has forced mistakes galore. Like I said before, they need to do a much better job on 3rd downs. I think this is the one key area of improvement needed for the playoffs, and one I'm confident will get corrected, with all players being healthy and with Capers having enough film from the season to know what works and what doesn't. But, again, because of everything I've said, the D has played well overall. Not saying they've been great, they haven't, but for what they're asked to do, they rank top 12 in most areas.

Just looking at the yards given up and saying this is a porous D is well beyond short sighted. Now I'm done. No, for real, I mean it this time.
You haven't convinced me I misread your post. There's so much I disagree with in your latest verbous response. I absolutely don't agree that the defense is built on the turnover. That is a defense of the current state of affairs. The Packers had a solid defense all the way around last year. Any defense will be a solid one only if it is capable in all aspects of the game well and this defense is not. It isn't unrealistic to expect a solid defense this year based on the loss of only two players when we had so many players missing on defense last year. The viewer and the stats prove the Packer offense is prolific while the defense is pourous. Picking apart the offense to prove a nebulous point escapes me. Pickett missed two games and Collins an entire season. Yes we have missed Collins but you can't build an argument for a season on his absence. And the Pass rush? You haven't come close to addressing this liability? How will Capers stop those third down plays in the playoffs when he has stated he has repeatedly placed emphasis on this aspect during the season and is baffeled by the gaffes?

I am also done.
 

Jules

The Colts Fan
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
2,769
Reaction score
614
Lets just see what the heck happens next Sunday. Cross your fingers/legs and put on your lucky undies. I mean we ALL have lucky playoff undies I hope. It's only natural. I even have yellow ones with green trim. SO, the D should be fine. Relax.
 

13 Times Champs

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
3,924
Reaction score
424
Location
Virginia
Lets just see what the heck happens next Sunday. Cross your fingers/legs and put on your lucky undies. I mean we ALL have lucky playoff undies I hope. It's only natural. I even have yellow ones with green trim. SO, the D should be fine. Relax.
Undies, did you say undies? play....off ready.
 

13 Times Champs

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
3,924
Reaction score
424
Location
Virginia
No, sir. My *yawn* was in response to hearing the more of the same B.S. we've heard all season long re-hashed yet again. Yours apparently came because you had no ability to respond when I noted that the last game was meaningless and we played as such. Yet you seem to think we played balls to the wall in that game anyway, which, of course, is nonsense.

You still have yet to explain why you think yards allowed is the only important defensive stat.
Since I didn't ask the question I don't have to respond. I made a post in response to Packer RS as I saw things and you responded with a yawn. Never said we played balls to the wall. Got a link where I did?

PS I don't call other posters comments BS.
 

Jules

The Colts Fan
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
2,769
Reaction score
614
Look at that. The #1 D in the league just got knocked off in the first round.

Oh yeah, stats matter.
 

GreenBlood

Banned
Banned
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
1,705
Reaction score
251
I think what we're seeing here is that the best defenses aren't enough to stop the best offenses. Heck, Denver's offense hasn't even been that good (though it was today).
 

Farvetowebster

Cheesehead
Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
268
Reaction score
23
I'm a giants fan so I dont know all the isues on GB like most of u do but imo the packer offense scores so fast and so often that the defense is prbly on the field too long...the packers defense has as much talent on it as anybody....I do fell ur d-line is suspect though.
 

13 Times Champs

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
3,924
Reaction score
424
Location
Virginia
Okay, let's run with this. What point of yours am I presumed to have acquiesced? If you're unwilling to discuss with those who disagree with you, then what's the point?
Just responding in kind. Check your posts. I'm perfectly willing to discuss things. I haven't noted any similiar willingness on your part other than criptic incindiary responses to my posts. Go back to where you responded to my post with a yawn. You will see that I didn't have a give and take with you beforehand.

I have placed you on ignore.
 

GreenBlood

Banned
Banned
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
1,705
Reaction score
251
I'm a giants fan so I dont know all the isues on GB like most of u do but imo the packer offense scores so fast and so often that the defense is prbly on the field too long...the packers defense has as much talent on it as anybody....I do fell ur d-line is suspect though.

That's certainly part of it. However, we also allow about the highest yards per play to the other team. But a lot of that is because the other team spends a lot of time passing as well to keep pace. Throw in the rule changes that have been made over the last 5 years which have now put skirts on our WRs and not just our QBs anymore and you have a recipe for huge yards in the air.

The rule changes over the last 5 years have gone a long ways toward turning the NFL into the CFL. They are gradually making the RB position obsolete by making it so damn easy to rack up huge yards in the air. Even the Steelers and Giants are much more geared toward passing than they had been at any other time in their long histories.
 

TJV

Lifelong Packers Fanatic
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
5,389
Reaction score
954
Gary D’Amato wrote a very good piece in the jsonline yesterday. It asks the question is this Packers team among the best in team history. He talks about Lambeau’s ’36 team and Lombardi’s ’62 team as he fleshes out the answer. It contains some nuggets like Jesse Whittenton, CB of the ’62 team saying that teams biggest weakness was “we couldn’t turn down a drink in a bar”. It also quotes Larry McCarren, whose opinion I respect, about this year's team:
"This team is never going to have a scary ground game because they throw the ball so well," McCarren said. "They don't invest that much repetition in it game-wise and they don't need to. In today's NFL, I don't know that (running the ball) is a prerequisite to greatness. "Has this been a great defense? It's been great at taking the ball away (31 interceptions) and pretty good at keeping teams out of the end zone. You don't get to be 15-1 without doing some things right defensively."
OK that’s not that great a quote, but I really wanted to commend that article here.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...g-best-in-team-history-4p3loiu-136856038.html
 

Kitten

Feline Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
1,227
Location
Philly/ South Jersey area
I think what we're seeing here is that the best defenses aren't enough to stop the best offenses. Heck, Denver's offense hasn't even been that good (though it was today).

This is what I am talking about in terms of the Saints and Packers. It's about having an offense that is so good and has so many weapons that even the best defense cannot hope to defend against it. In terms of the Packers Vs the Giants, and Saints too if you will, the reason I speak of this game and prospective game mostly in terms of offense is because I don't think either game will be played on a defensive level. I'm not going to completely disregard the defenses role in any game, I just don't see them being the focal point. As one Giants fan tried to make a point out of showcasing the Giants defense, I think he is looking at the wrong weapon. The Giants could have the best defense in the league, and Aaron Rodgers and the Packers offense would shred them.

As for the wonderful debate that is going on in this thread, a note to the participants. I am speaking in my NON mod voice, for the record. I would just like to say, that although you two may be frustrated with one another, you are entertaining the hell out of me. The reason I join forums and stay on them are because of debates such as this. Although you represent opposing view points, you have both brought profound reasoning and debate skills to this argument. Your arguments clearly comes from a place of passion. I hope you both can continue and remain respectful, I say that out of concern because I personally respect and adore both of you. Carry on, for without disagreement, there can be no debate.
 

Kitten

Feline Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
1,227
Location
Philly/ South Jersey area
I was wondering, after this weekend, do you feel the same?

Last weekend, I would of agreed with that statement. But this weekend I'm not so sure. Both San Fran and the Giants defenses came up huge. The difference is, the Giants also have the offense. It may not be the year of the QB after all.
 

FrankRizzo

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
5,858
Reaction score
771
Location
Dallas
Peprah sucked.
Our 3rd down defense in the first half was CRIMINALLY BAD.
But they did their job in the 3rd quarter and early 4th quarter. They surprised me.

Our offense FUMBLED 3 BALLS AWAY.
Rodgers & Jennings missed an easy TD on drive #1.
And Jennings dropped another TD in his hands.
Crabtree dropped an easy 3rd down pass that hit him in the hands/numbers.
Why is Tom Crabtree being thrown to on any down not in the pre-season right now?
Driver should be on the field, so should Jones, Jordy, even Cobb before him.

Rodgers running was the only good thing on offense except for Driver's great hands.
I love that guy. I feel so sad for Driver more than anyone today (except for myself and my little 8-year old son as we would have won some good $ in the Super Bowl pool had we won the SB over NE or Baltimore, one of us would have won it)
 
Joined
Jan 30, 2011
Messages
266
Reaction score
86
Location
Long Beach, CA!
8 dropped balls is 7 too many. But our D was in trouble the whole game. Giants receivers were constantly left wide open or given room in front to roam. That is just bad defense and need to be corrected if we hope to win a Super Bowl next season.
 

FrankRizzo

Cheesehead
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
5,858
Reaction score
771
Location
Dallas
Point is our offense has to play perfect due to an inadequate defense.
True, and so many people thought that our offense would always play perfect.
Nobody does, especially in weather that's about 15 degrees windchill.
That's cold! That affects fingers. I know the Giants didn't drop ANY did they, just like Plaxico didn't drop any when he mutilated Al Harris 4 years ago.
Wonder why that is.
 

Jules

The Colts Fan
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
2,769
Reaction score
614
Lucky undies don't work guys. Tried it.
Still don't get it. I don't get how this D fell apart in one year. I know the losses and all with Jenkins and Collins.

Get another legit pass rusher. Or two. Look at the Giants. They got like 4 of them.
 

FearThePack

13x World Champs!
Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Messages
81
Reaction score
34
Location
Madison, WI
Tramon didn't even look like he belonged on the field yesterday. I'd be okay with getting upgrades at that position and a few more (ROLB, LILB, SS if Collins retires, and DE).
 

Members online

No members online now.

Latest posts

Top