Why does Capers take so much flak?

kevans74

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I agree that the overall development of some of the younger guys hasn't been ideal but really....

Halftime adjustments sometimes should be made better, but i feel that's maybe moreso on McCarthy since he's the actual HC

Do ya'll remember Jim Bates? LOL and Bob Sanders... TERRIBLE..,

I feel that TT just needs to realize what HAS worked when he has brought in PROVEN, VETERAN talents for Bates and see what he does with them.

Pickett, Woodson, Peppers... those are all good examples that turned out well
 

Pokerbrat2000

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No offense to the OP, but I think the "Fire Capers" thread looks at both sides + a few thousand more concerning Capers.
 

Dantés

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Capers takes a lot of flack because he's been the defensive coordinator for 9 years running and over that time span, the Packers have been outside of the top 10 in scoring defense for all but 1 year (they were 2nd in 2010, the Super Bowl season). The other major issue is that the defense has often gotten shellacked in the postseason (44 points @ATL in 2016, 31 points @DAL in 2016, 45 points @SF in 2012, 37 points Vs. Giants in 2011, 51 @ARI in 2009).

Personally, I don't think he's terrible. And I absolutely believe that personnel is also a component of the problem. But in my opinion, with a big sample size, Capers isn't a guy who is going to adapt to change very well or get the most out of the talent he's given. I don't think he can elevate the level of the defense beyond the sum of its parts the way that we've seen out of other DC's over the years, e.g. Wade Phillips, Mike Smith, Rod Marinelli, Vic Fangio, Rex Ryan, Jim Schwartz, or **** LeBeau, among others.

I think that GB's emphasis on continuity is a good thing on the whole, but after nearly a decade with Capers and only one outstanding season, I would say things have run their course and it's time to make a change. However, I'm not saying that he's the worst DC on the planet and will necessarily be a mill stone around the Packers neck until he's gone.
 
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kevans74

kevans74

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That's a good point.

I would have like Rex or Wade to come in so you bring in good points

But on the flip side, I have to somewhat disagree... He's done a pretty "decent" job with relatively unknown or undrafted FAs..

Shields, Gunter, Joe Thomas

Besides Rex... it's not like guys like that are just on the street without a job lol
 

Dantés

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That's a good point.

I would have like Rex or Wade to come in so you bring in good points

But on the flip side, I have to somewhat disagree... He's done a pretty "decent" job with relatively unknown or undrafted FAs..

Shields, Gunter, Joe Thomas

Besides Rex... it's not like guys like that are just on the street without a job lol

Yeah, Capers has some good accomplishments to his name. Also some bad ones. He had Casey Hayward in house for four seasons and never made more of him than a decent slot corner. He went to SD for one season and he was an All Pro selection. In general, the development on defense has been lower and slower than on offense. Some might argue that that's because TT doesn't draft defense as well, and there might be some truth in that. But I would argue that coaching/scheme/development are bigger factors.

And it's true that there aren't a bunch of stellar DC's sitting in the unemployment line, but they do come available and if you never move on from Capers you never get a shot at one. Ryan and Phillips were let go this offseason. Gus Bradley was out there. So was Mike Smith. They get snapped up quickly. And honestly, that might be an underrated factor in why Capers has been around so long. The Pack are always in the PO's, so by the time they're free to conduct coaching searches, the premier guys are all gone.
 
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kevans74

kevans74

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Yeah, Capers has some good accomplishments to his name. Also some bad ones. He had Casey Hayward in house for four seasons and never made more of him than a decent slot corner. He went to SD for one season and he was an All Pro selection. In general, the development on defense has been lower and slower than on offense. Some might argue that that's because TT doesn't draft defense as well, and there might be some truth in that. But I would argue that coaching/scheme/development are bigger factors.

And it's true that there aren't a bunch of stellar DC's sitting in the unemployment line, but they do come available and if you never move on from Capers you never get a shot at one. Ryan and Phillips were let go this offseason. Gus Bradley was out there. So was Mike Smith. They get snapped up quickly. And honestly, that might be an underrated factor in why Capers has been around so long. The Pack are always in the PO's, so by the time they're free to conduct coaching searches, the premier guys are all gone.

You're joking right??

Casey Hayward NEARLY WON "Rookie of the Year"

It's TT's fault he wasn't resigned. Casey was hurt his 2nd year if I remember correctly

Neal and Hyde are good late round selections that Capers has made look good
Jury is out on Kenny Clark, but I liked that selection

Datone Jones is easily forgettable... just bad

The underlying problem is probably just lack of FA signings to be honest lol
 

rmontro

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The defense has not been good enough, and has had some spectacular failures. That's either on the defensive coaching or on the talent (that TT provides). Or it could be both. Pick one. My current thinking is that it is on TT. I agree we should have kept Hayward, and I didn't like it when we let him go. Because we had a good backfield, and Thompson let it go.
 
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kevans74

kevans74

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The defense has not been good enough, and has had some spectacular failures. That's either on the defensive coaching or on the talent (that TT provides). Or it could be both. Pick one. My current thinking is that it is on TT. I agree we should have kept Hayward, and I didn't like it when we let him go. Because we had a good backfield, and Thompson let it go.

The Hayward ordeal was hindsight is 20/20 because Casey had the injury thing and he honestly wasn't that "productive" in his last year... but I thought you should keep him.

I'm forced to somewhat follow him bc one of my college roommates(and good friend's) parents were strong Vanderbilt alum

Losing House, Tramon and Casey all in like 2 years didn't help obviously

But then, I liken Rollins to House... Shields basically was "supposed to" take over for the void Tramon left

So a lot of it is hindsight is 20/20

The injury to Sam Shields hurt pretty badly as he was our "number one" and best corner BY FAR(before his injury) so that also factors in
 

Dantés

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You're joking right??

Casey Hayward NEARLY WON "Rookie of the Year"

It's TT's fault he wasn't resigned. Casey was hurt his 2nd year if I remember correctly

Neal and Hyde are good late round selections that Capers has made look good
Jury is out on Kenny Clark, but I liked that selection

Datone Jones is easily forgettable... just bad

The underlying problem is probably just lack of FA signings to be honest lol

No, I'm not joking at all.

Hayward was not a late round pick. He was a 2nd round pick.

His first year was fantastic by rookie standards. His year two was injury marred. His years 3 and 4 were good, but nothing like what he did in his first season in San Diego. He shadowed #1 WR's more than anyone in the league other than Patrick Peterson and allowed a mere 55 passer rating into his coverage. That's a whole different level.

I don't really blame TT for not resigning him last offseason. The player he was in GB wasn't critical to keep. The red flag is that as soon as he left, his game jumped to a whole new level. Why wasn't he that player under Capers? Had he been, I feel confident in saying he would have been kept.

But I agree that TT needs to bring in more veteran help via free agency.
 
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kevans74

kevans74

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that's an interesting take on Hayward's numbers... but that defense as a "whole" is much more talented and accomplished than what the Packers have... I'm positive that playing opposite Brandon Flowers helps, who was already a solid player before he left KC

Their Dline also with Liuget and Bosa is probably significantly MORE TALENTED than any DL the Packers have had in quite some time. Then again having

So I think it could be... he just maximized his "potential" having played with better players

I disagree with Capers not maximizing his potential though, that is so much hindsight 20/20 "theory"

I DO KNOW that he was terrific his 1st year.. then INJURED his 2nd and had a "solid" 3rd year...4th year not so good but likely could have been kept for cheap

Also "where" he was picked is ridiculous, there were 61 players picked BEFORE him (including Perry and Worthy) so it's not as if he was "supposed to" be that good

Looking back, if Worthy had turned out like "he was supposed to" that would have been a pretty good draft for TT actually lol
 

Dantés

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that's an interesting take on Hayward's numbers... but that defense as a "whole" is much more talented and accomplished than what the Packers have... I'm positive that playing opposite Brandon Flowers helps, who was already a solid player before he left KC

Their Dline also with Liuget and Bosa is probably significantly MORE TALENTED than any DL the Packers have had in quite some time. Then again having

So I think it could be... he just maximized his "potential" having played with better players

I disagree with Capers not maximizing his potential though, that is so much hindsight 20/20 "theory"

I DO KNOW that he was terrific his 1st year.. then INJURED his 2nd and had a "solid" 3rd year...4th year not so good but likely could have been kept for cheap

Also "where" he was picked is ridiculous, there were 61 players picked BEFORE him (including Perry and Worthy) so it's not as if he was "supposed to" be that good

Looking back, if Worthy had turned out like "he was supposed to" that would have been a pretty good draft for TT actually lol

Flowers was only healthy for 32% of the snaps last season. Verrett only for 24%. IIRC, the Chargers defense was lousy in just about every metric you can find, despite how good Bosa proved to be as a rookie.
 
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kevans74

kevans74

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Flowers was only healthy for 32% of the snaps last season. Verrett only for 24%. IIRC, the Chargers defense was lousy in just about every metric you can find, despite how good Bosa proved to be as a rookie.

that still doesn't mean that Capers didn't take full advantage of his potential... Didn't Casey still "rate" out as "very good to elite" in his 3rd and 4th years in Green Bay?? He just didn't have interceptions his 4th year

Honestly, at this point... If they could bring anyone in at corner who has ANY track record Revis, Prince(I liked him out of college), etc.. Stephon Gilmore or Butler I like too but will likely cost WAY TOO much

And if he can't perform well then that would say more about Capers, but Capers has done well in the past in "proven" talent

Also I REALLY HOPE the Packers DO NOT sign Bouye/Johnson who will want a longer term contract and get way overpaid.. that would be a big no no
 

Arthur Squires

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Capers has been a great coach in this league. But his schemes haven't changed much in 10 years. I would oppose some fresh blood after this season if it's more of the same from ol' Dom!
 
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He rushed 3 men with our opponent backed up to their own goal line last year (this was not a 1st nor will it be his last) Its not Monday morning QBing to say that something is wrong here because I fell out my chair way before we got burned.
 

Dantés

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that still doesn't mean that Capers didn't take full advantage of his potential... Didn't Casey still "rate" out as "very good to elite" in his 3rd and 4th years in Green Bay?? He just didn't have interceptions his 4th year

Honestly, at this point... If they could bring anyone in at corner who has ANY track record Revis, Prince(I liked him out of college), etc.. Stephon Gilmore or Butler I like too but will likely cost WAY TOO much

And if he can't perform well then that would say more about Capers, but Capers has done well in the past in "proven" talent

Also I REALLY HOPE the Packers DO NOT sign Bouye/Johnson who will want a longer term contract and get way overpaid.. that would be a big no no

Hayward never did anything in Green Bay to compare to his performance in 2016.
 
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Capers takes a lot of flack because he's been the defensive coordinator for 9 years running and over that time span, the Packers have been outside of the top 10 in scoring defense for all but 1 year (they were 2nd in 2010, the Super Bowl season).

Personally, I don't think he's terrible. And I absolutely believe that personnel is also a component of the problem. But in my opinion, with a big sample size, Capers isn't a guy who is going to adapt to change very well or get the most out of the talent he's given. I don't think he can elevate the level of the defense beyond the sum of its parts the way that we've seen out of other DC's over the years, e.g. Wade Phillips, Mike Smith, Rod Marinelli, Vic Fangio, Rex Ryan, Jim Schwartz, or **** LeBeau, among others.

The Packers have finished twice in the top 10 in points allowed during Capers' tenure ranking seventh during his first season as the team's defensive coordinator in 2009.

In my opinion the 2015 season proved that he's still capable of fielding a decent defense when being handed a unit without any glaring weaknesses finishing 12th in points allowed. There wasn't anything another DC would have been able to do with the mess at cornerback last year.

I would have like Rex or Wade to come in so you bring in good points

Besides Rex... it's not like guys like that are just on the street without a job lol

I guarantee that Rex isn't a fit in Green Bay with McCarthy being the head coach.

Neal and Hyde are good late round selections that Capers has made look good

No idea who you're talking about with Neal.

I agree we should have kept Hayward, and I didn't like it when we let him go. Because we had a good backfield, and Thompson let it go.

Once again, that's using hindsight to criticize letting Hayward walk away in free agency last offseason. The secondary was a perceived strength entering 2016 but unfortunately didn't work out that way. It was the right decision to not match the Chargers offer though.

Flowers was only healthy for 32% of the snaps last season. Verrett only for 24%. IIRC, the Chargers defense was lousy in just about every metric you can find, despite how good Bosa proved to be as a rookie.

I know Hayward contributed to it in a big way but the Chargers were the sixth best defense in opposing passer rating last season. Bosa and Ingram rushing the passer for sure helped their secondary.

Also I REALLY HOPE the Packers DO NOT sign Bouye/Johnson who will want a longer term contract and get way overpaid.. that would be a big no no

The Rams franchise tagged Trumaine Johnson, he's off the market. Bouye would be a risky signings but might pay off huge dividends.

He rushed 3 men with our opponent backed up to their own goal line last year (this was not a 1st nor will it be his last) Its not Monday morning QBing to say that something is wrong here because I fell out my chair way before we got burned.

The Packers actually allowed less yards per pass when rushing only two or three (6.5) than once they sent four (8.0).
 

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Mike Neal I would guess is who he was talking about, who was a 2nd round pick, not a late round pick.

And I have no idea what the point of throwing in Jim Bates' name in the original post was. Bates took a defense with no talent and Ahmed Carroll as his top corner and turned it into a top 10 defense.

Bates was a damn good defensive coordinator.
 
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Mike Neal I would guess is who he was talking about, who was a 2nd round pick, not a late round pick.

Mike Neal was the only one I remembered as well but as you mentioned he was neither a late round pick nor a good player.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Now why did someone have to go and mention Mike Neal? Might have given away TT's "big splash" in this years Free Agency! :eek:
 

rmontro

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The Hayward ordeal was hindsight is 20/20 because Casey had the injury thing and he honestly wasn't that "productive" in his last year... but I thought you should keep him
I didn't like Thompson letting Hayward go at the time that he did it. That is not hindsight.
 

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Packers points allowed per drive since the SB:

2011-23rd
2012-15th
2013-26th
2014-17th
2015-10th
2016-28th

Ted isn't leaving so can we finally move on from Capers and try something else already?
 

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Packers points allowed per drive since the SB:

2011-23rd
2012-15th
2013-26th
2014-17th
2015-10th
2016-28th

Ted isn't leaving so can we finally move on from Capers and try something else already?

Wonder how many Defensive coordinators have survived those levels of " ineptitude". I quoted because I still don't know if its the players, DC, or combo.
 

rmontro

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Ted isn't leaving so can we finally move on from Capers and try something else already?
McCarty seems to be enamored of Capers, so it doesn't look like he's leaving either. Ted's contract expires in 2018, so unless someone changes their approach, it doesn't look like we'll be winning a Super Bowl until then, at least.
 

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