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Whats with all the Crosby hate.

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Lunchboxer, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. JCpackers04

    JCpackers04 Cheesehead

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    When he kicks a game winning field goal in the final seconds which i feel like he either A) never gets that opportunity or B) if he does, he misses... then ill love him forever, but right now i have nothing but bad memories of him missing important field goals...


    and by never gets the opportunity i mean that i always feel like the other team has that last field goal attempt at the end of a game...
     
  2. Green_Bay_Packers

    Green_Bay_Packers Cheesehead

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    Name me an importnat FG minus the 1 vs the Cards and the 1 he hit the post vs the skins, Dont say Dallas that was just crappy blocking
     
  3. Jess

    Jess Movement!

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    2008 Minnesota Peterson pushes Vikings past Packers 28-27 - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
     
  4. Green_Bay_Packers

    Green_Bay_Packers Cheesehead

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  5. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Really, to me it's just a kicker.
    I don't hate him.

    But IMHO he doesn't justify his roster spot with his performance. That's it.
     
  6. aaronqb

    aaronqb Cheesehead

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    retired
     
  7. JCpackers04

    JCpackers04 Cheesehead

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    lol your ridiculous. immediately you say we cant "count" two. and then someone brings up a perfectly valid one and you say nope cant use that one either!


    Mason Crosby is 1 for 4 on FGA to win the game in his career btw. cant wait to go to war with that!
     
  8. GreenGoldAngel

    GreenGoldAngel Banned Banned

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    Oh don't go there. Let me count the ways...you have a short term memory. How about a low kick that the Bears blocked. I can go on if you wish.
     
  9. GreenGoldAngel

    GreenGoldAngel Banned Banned

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    OK, I can buy that, he's not only a below average kicker, he's a poor golfer.
     
  10. GreenGoldAngel

    GreenGoldAngel Banned Banned

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    Saying he was 38 of 39 inside the thirty is like saying he was 38 0f 39 on extra points.
     
  11. GreenGoldAngel

    GreenGoldAngel Banned Banned

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    That is what scares me...4 games to go with Crosby and he is over 5% lower than 2007 and 2008.
     
  12. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    You can't put that game on Crosby alone. We lost that game because without Matthews we had ZERO pass rush in the second half. We lost it because Rodgers overthrew a wide open James Jones that would have put us at about the 10 yard line or so. We lost for a LOT of reasons, not just because of one player.
     
  13. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    LOL... good one
     
  14. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Did I say he cost the game? So unless you can show me where I said it, please dont put words in my mouth



    I just recall he missed fg
     
  15. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I'm sorry, but 74.5% is NOT 70%. As for bad kickoffs, the reason he is kicking them shorter this year is because Slocum has this bright idea of kicking the ball high so our coverage has more time to get downfield. Slocum started that late last season and that's how he wants it done. Prior to that, in 2007-08, Crosby was 6th in touchbacks.

    Again, the majority isn't always right, so using that as an argument is a non sequitur.
     
  16. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Newsflash for you. The vast majority of kickers who ever played have missed from inside 30 at some point.
     
  17. GreenGoldAngel

    GreenGoldAngel Banned Banned

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    Oh, Crosby is young. Can you give us a hint at watch age he will climb out of mediocrity? Ackers was young, made pro bowl 3 of his first 5 years (1 all pro). Anderson was young made the pro bowl 3 of his first 5 years (2 all pro). Gary Anderson was young and made two Pro Bowls in his first 4 years. If you don't show you are made of the right stuff after 4 years....go find another job. Crosby is never even going to smell a pro bowl much less than being sent to one.

    Best wishes...and don't take this stuff so seriously. I am getting a lot of laughs from both sides of the argument...this many posts about a kicker has to make one smile.
     
  18. GreenGoldAngel

    GreenGoldAngel Banned Banned

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    Thank you Paul Harvey, BTW, in his career he is 24 of 25 not 38 of 39 inside the 30.
     
  19. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Okay, with some people saying more people agree that Crosby sucks so we must right, I guess it's time for me to explain exactly why I'm not ready to give up on the guy.

    What I see is a lot of misplaced blame and fundamental misunderstanding of what it takes to make FGs. So I'll try to educate those with an open mind. And yes, I do happen to be something of an expert on the matter. My credentials? I was a holder (and a 4th string tailback) for my sophomore through senior years of college at Harding U in the early '90's. I had never done it before but decided to give it a shot and I got the job as a sophomore. That year we made only about 60% of our kicks, and at least half of those misses were my fault (that's why when asked about missed FGs, most coaches will answer that they need to look at the tape and see what happened.) The next spring, coach sent us to Al Del Greco's kicking camp for a week. Man, did I learn a lot! The next two seasons we made about 82% of our kicks.

    For those who have never held or kicked, here is the anatomy of a successful FG try:

    The long snapper: The snapper has two jobs to do. He needs to snap the ball directly on target to the holders hands, and ideally, he needs to have some consistency in the amount of spiral he puts on the ball. On the college and pro level, a really good snapper will put the ball in the holder's hands with the laces straight up or very close to it, to require as little correction as possible on facing the laces forward from the holder. The more the holder has to correct, the more he has to rush to get the ball on the mark and his hand out of the way.

    The holder: This is where a lot of misunderstanding comes from. I cringe every time I hear a commentator during a replay of a missed kick say, "Well, good hold... the laces were forward." In truth, it's not nearly that simple. The first thing the holder has to do, is use his left hand (assuming a right-footed kicker) to place the mark. It is based on that mark that the kicker will mark off his steps for the kick. The holder has to hold the mark until the snap to give the kicker a focus point.

    When the ball is snapped, he has to catch it cleanly and immediately identify with his eyes and hands how the strings are aligned while simultaneously placing the point of the ball exactly on the mark. As soon as the point touches the ground, he has to immediately make the correction for the laces, if necessary and get his hand out of the way. The goal for the holder is to have the ball on the exact mark, with the kicker's preferred tilt (some like it slightly forward or back), with the laces forward, and his hand out of the way no later than 0.5 seconds before the kicker places his plant foot. That's the ideal hold.

    Now a LOT can go wrong up to this point. If the laces require a big correction, the hold can be late. If the holder misses the mark by an inch or two to the left, the kicker will pull the kick unless he has time to make a correction with his plant foot placement. If it's an inch or two to the right, the kicker will probably push it. If it's too far forward, you usually get a low trajectory kick and possibly a pull. If it's too far back, you get a low kick that can get blocked and a possible push. The farther the kick, the less tolerance there is for error on the placement. If you combine a late hold with bad placement, regardless of the laces, you will almost always have a bad kick because there just isn't enough time for the kicker to compensate. To my amazement, my special teams coach didn't know half of this stuff. I learned it at Del Greco's camp.

    The kicker: The kicker's job is to JUST MAKE THE DAMN KICK! No, no, no... too over-simplified. The kicker's job is to develop and use a consistent form with a proper follow-through and do it the same way every single time. He has to mark off his setup the same way on each kick. He has to concentrate on the holder's mark before the kick and have faith that the ball will be accurately placed on that spot. As soon as the snap is made, he has to visualize the ball on the mark and start his technique immediately. Once the ball is actually placed, if the placement is correct and the kickers form is correct, he will make that kick every single time. But the world isn't perfect, is it? If the placement isn't too far off, he has to make the proper adjustment with his plant foot and continue his follow through. If he does that, he will make the kick. But if the ball is more than an inch or two off the mark, unless it's a very short kick, the chances of the kick being successful is very low. If the placement is late, he will still usually make the kick if he follows through correctly and the holder gets his hand out of the way in time. However, if the placement is late and off the mark, there's virtually nothing the kicker can do to save the attempt and he will miss.

    So to everyone who says things like, "The kicker has ONE job! Make the damn kick!" I hope you've learned something about how complicated the process really is and how much skill is required from ALL THREE members of the field goal squad.

    Now let's talk specifically about Mason Crosby. Crosby has had a whopping FIVE holders in his career with the Packers. Not good. His current holder is Tim Masthay and for that reason alone it is my opinion that Slocum should be fired. Masthay has never held kicks before this year, but Slocum insists for reasons I can't fathom to have his punter do the holding. WHY?! Matt Flynn was a holder for 4 years at LSU and he's very good at it. Beyond that, he's also a QB which gives the possibility of a fake FG. Slocum is an idiot. You simply don't become a good holder in one training camp, and some guys just can't do it, period.

    If you have the SF game recorded, go back and look at the 29 yard missed kick. The kick was coming from the left hashmark which should tell the holder that if he has to hurry the placement, to err on the side of getting it too far right, if anything. The WORST thing the holder can do is miss his mark to the left. Look at Masthay's mark. He's marking a spot about 3 or 4 inches to the right of the hashmark. Great! No problem. Now look where he actually places the ball after the snap. He places it about an inch and a half from the hashmark. In other words, he missed his mark by almost 2 inches in the worst direction he could have misplaced it. Now watch the kick itself. Crosby had time to attempt a correction and did so by planting a little further than he would have wanted to the left, but it was a big correction to make and that sacrifices a lot of control and it caused the ball to have a little bit of a wobble that made it curve to the left and the ball hit the upright. There could have also been poor placement of the laces, but you can't really see them, but that aspect of the hold didn't look too bad. If I was the special teams coach, who's job it is to assess all missed kicks, I'd give about 75% of the blame to Masthay and about 25% of the blame to Crosby. The snap looked great.

    But the average fan only sees that the laces were generally facing forward so it must be all the kicker's fault.

    Interestingly, I missed it but Mike Vandermause touched on this same concern early in training camp in this article:

    Green Bay Packers news | Mike Vandermause column: Green Bay Packers kicker Mason Crosby deserves more experienced holder | Green Bay Press-Gazette

    I'm betting a lot of kickers would be struggling around the league with a completely green holder.

    Now if you guys still want to insist that the missed FGs are all Crosby's fault, fine. Whatever. Just understand that to lay it all on the kicker and to absolve the other members of the FG squad of all responsibility comes from a position of ignorance.

    As a guy who held kicks for 3 years myself, I can tell you that I single-handedly cost my team at least 6 or 7 field goals all by myself, and I probably had a fair share of blame on 8 or 9 other missed kicks, especially as a sophomore. Holding kicks isn't as easy as it looks... not even close! And Slocum should be fired for refusing to put our best holder on the field. McCarthy should override Slocum, but it's understandable that he probably doesn't know the ins and outs of kicking field goals and probably feels that Slocum is more qualified to make that call. Either way, Slocum has to go.

    I probably should have made this a new thread.
     
  20. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    If you were paying attention, you'd know it was Green_Bay_Packers who posted those figures, not me.
     
  21. Wood Chipper

    Wood Chipper Fantasy Football Guru

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    point is that he is paid lots of money to make clutch kicks
     
  22. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    No, the point is that making kicks is a coordinated effort between 3 people, especially the kicker and the holder. I haven't looked closely at his other 5 misses this year, but on that 29-yarder, Masthay made it very difficult. A lot of guys would have missed that kick. Frankly, I'm surprised he didn't miss to the left by 7 or 8 feet.
     
  23. Incubes12

    Incubes12 Bay Harbor Butcher?

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    Wait, I thought he missed it because of protection breakdown. Now it's Masthay's fault? So we should completely revamp our kicking unit? I thought that had been done...
     
  24. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I for one want to say THANK YOU for the very detailed explanation of the kicking process..

    Others may not appreciate it, but I do
     
    • Like Like x 2
  25. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Thank you. I had debated on whether or not to bother with it because I knew it would take an hour or so to write out, but I'm glad someone got something from it :)

    There's just a whole lot more to it than most people realize. I'd just like to see how good Crosby could be with a couple of season under his belt with a good, quality holder. On the Packers' roster, Flynn is that guy, hands down.
     

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