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Week 6 vs Detroit MNF: Time For Big Time Payback

Discussion in 'Green Bay Packers Fan Forum' started by PackerfaninCarolina, Oct 7, 2019.

  1. Wi. Mike now in Florida

    Wi. Mike now in Florida Cheesehead

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    Did anyone listen to WTMJ radio today?

    They were discussing why the refs shouldn't have their names on their
    backs like the players for accountability so we could single out individual refs
    instead of referring to the term "refs" as a group.

    Or maybe a change in the why plays are reviewed.

    What do you think?
     
  2. Dantés

    Dantés Gute Loot

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    More review! Reviewable reviews!! No more football-- just reviews!!!
     
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  3. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    Get rid of it all, simplify it so the refs have a chance to be right. It's out of control and YOU (fans) are to blame.

    Put names on the back of jerseys for refs, are you ******* kidding me? send some hate mail dumbasses. was your life too negatively affected by a football game? LOL
     
  4. smacker

    smacker Smacker = Smack talking Packer Fan

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    Amen to that, How about the Philly missed pass interference last week? Where were all the other teams whining in the Replacement ref game? The one where the only thing Golden Tate caught was the Green Bay receiver with the ball in his hands! How about just about ever Clay Matthew roughing the passer penalty except the first one last year? I could go on, but I won't. In the long run it all evens out, what comes around goes around, Green Bay was due to have a bad call go their way, for once. But hey, Green Bay had a bad call go there way, so the NFL is in meltdown.
     
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  5. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I'm not going to read all these post, so pardon me if this has been covered.

    Q: Where was Mike Daniels?
    A: Inactive with a "foot injury"

    A couple of notes:
    • He hasn't played since 9/22 and didn't do much in the 3 games he played on 34%, 43% and 9% defensive snap counts
    • Daniels ended last season on IR with a "foot injury". Is this the same problem or a re-injury? If so, that is not auspicious.
    • With the NFLPA's recent mystery update to the cap table, we see that retaining Daniels would have put the Packer's cap space around a scant $2 mil.
    Releasing Daniels looks like a smart decision. I liked it then; I like it even better now.
     
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  6. greengold

    greengold Cheesehead

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    Which missed PI call v. PHI? The one on Adams or the one on MVS? I feel your pain, all the way there man...
     
  7. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    Honestly, even if you concede that the calls could have gone either way, there were really no egregiously bad (See Mary, Fail) calls last night, including the hands to the face, including the hit on Allison, including the line judge overruling and giving a TD on 4th and goal to the Lions in the first. All were close.

    Really, the main culprit for the outrage yesterday and today is Booger McFarland. I very, very rarely complain about commentators, but he is the worst I've ever seen. He was absolutely losing his mind last night on any close call that didn't go the Lions' way. When you're doing that in front of a national TV audience, you're stoking the flames. Of COURSE people are going to be reacting on Twitter when the color commentator is acting like it's the worst call he's ever seen. Of course by the time the Lions speak to the media the flames have already been stoked and knowing that, they're going to stoke it further.

    I'll bet anything that if McFarland reacts on a level of "I'm not sure" or "It was close" and then leaves it at that, very little is made of the officiating after the game. If McFarland is flipping out about the line judge giving Johnson the controversial TD, they're talking about that.

    It was absolute unprofessionalism by McFarland and again he's 99% responsible for the hot takes and pitchforks after the game. These calls were questionable. They weren't egregious. I've seen games decided in the 4th by much worse calls where even less was made of the officiating after the game, because the commentators decided not to die on the hill of how bad the call was and instead move on with their job.
     
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  8. Dantés

    Dantés Gute Loot

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    Here's the solution: review every play.

    Play: 1st & 10 rush attempt, 3 yds (6 seconds)

    Review: Check the entire play for any missed penalties (7 minutes)

    Play: 2nd & 7 pass attempt, incomplete (4 seconds)

    Review: Check the entire play for any missed penalties (7:30)

    Flag: Defensive holding located on review (30 seconds)

    Challenge: Team A is contesting the review ruling of defensive holding (45 seconds)

    Review: Officials go back over replay (3 minutes)

    Flag: Penalty stands; Team A charged a timeout

    TV timeout
     
  9. OldSchool101

    OldSchool101 Peerless Beer, Lacrosse WI

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    I agree. If that particular TD gets called short (which from 2 angles looked inches short to me) the booth would’ve stayed the call. It was that close.

    You can’t overturn every call. It’s just getting ridiculous. But on scoring plays it just makes sense.

    We’d have to be pretty desperate to make the leap that the one play changed the entire outcome.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  10. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    Yup, the refs missed a few leading-with-the-helmet penalties on Detroit, a blatant offensive pass interference, and a few others. Ugly when you factor in the well-talked about ones.

    As for the Flowers penalties, I get that the call is wrong but what do expect the ref to call when you consistently have your hand right at the border and it causes the head to go back? Maybe this is why I never made it past high school football, but we were always taught to get our hands on the numbers. Control their shoulder pads and keep your hands on the numbers to avoid penalties. Flowers has a right to be angry but he can avoid this too.
     
  11. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    If every play is reviewed there is no point in having challenges.

    With enough monitors and staff working on a 7 second slow-mo delay, you'd get answers very fast. In fact, eventually, those guys could be the ones to throw the flags. Do it New York. One team can work multiple games.

    The NFL quality control process is like something out of 1980 Detroit. Just patch up some of the defects inherent in the processes at the end of the line and shove the product out the door. It would cost the league money to retool and hire a lot of full time professionally trained video referees. They can't even be bothered with that now, with 75% of the field referees having day jobs who just show up on game day. They could use a theoretical Japanese competitor to start eating their lunch to teach them how incremental quality improvements pay for themselves.

    The technology is teaching us how poor the product is (and has been). That has a nasty habit of catching up with you sooner or later.

    They could go a long way toward fixing this for the annual cost of one veteran Pro Bowl quarterback.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  12. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    Some day the NFL will only exist in our minds, every game will appear on our screens played out in perfect form, without officiating mistakes. The winners will be predetermined, but we won't know that.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    There's something you guys are overlooking on the play. Whether he broke the plane on the initial surge may be irrelvant. If you look closely he was never tackled after that surge. When he rolled onto his back (with the help of a shove from James) he was laying on top of his lineman. I don't see any elbow/knee/butt hitting the ground. The play is still alive. He kept rolling all the way to the ground and the overhead shot shows the ball breaking the plane in the process.

    So, forget whether there is sufficient evidence to overrule, yada, yada, if you got to make the initial call off these slo-mo replays, what would you say?
     
  14. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    Technology is turning everyone into an unrealistic incessant whiner about being "fair". at the end of the day it's still a human making a judgement. Let's bitch about 7 other calls per play because that's all adding more off site officials to call a game on a slow mo delay will do. except the fan at home will either have to sit thru a 6 hour game OR they move it along with the viewer at home won't be able to keep up with all the different calls with their own eyes and they'll eventually tune out.
     
  15. Dantés

    Dantés Gute Loot

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    That scenario I posted was meant to be a parody.

    I am of the opinion that they need to give the rule book a serious hair cut and then eliminate all replay review and challenges.
     
  16. PackerfaninCarolina

    PackerfaninCarolina Cheesehead

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    Well and this is why I've taken the position that the state of sports journalism is probably at the worst it's ever been in all the years I've been watching and it goes beyond Mr McFarland. A lot of the lead up into Monday night's game I swear was heavily slanted towards the Lions, and I can't really say why that was. I got a feeling maybe the worlds of sports journalism and gambling have some kind of connection where money is involved and the media needed Detroit to win because of that. Or, maybe it was because of Kelly Stafford and they wanted to turn a win into a feel good story for her. Was a great moment in that game with her and Molly Crosby btw.

    But yes, this was definitely the media over sensationalizing a couple questionable calls which ... Well one of them gave the offense one more opportunity to go for a TD, but it was 3rd and 5 when Lazard scored and as Detroit could have made a stop right there. The other milked the clock on them sure, but we don't know that had the Packers kicked with just under 2 min remaining that Detroit would have scored on the ensuing possession. Agnew could have fumbled returning the kick, someone in Detroit's offense could have fumbled it, or Stafford thrown a pick to end it for Green Bay.

    Similarly, four years ago Rodgers got tackled on one play where the refs called facemask. Slow motion replay showed that ... It probably wasn't that 15 yard variety, but at full speed it looked like it. But no excuses, the Lions knew the very next play was going to be a hail Mary, who didn't? But they didn't pick up Richard Rodgers coming downfield and ... Well we know the story quite well. The narrative then was the Lions failed to put us away completely, and that should have been the narrative again the other night, especially when they failed to capitalize off of three turnovers. I got fired up because there's no reason whatsoever why the Packers win should be tainted. The better team won, and that's the end of debate I would say to the mainstream media.
     
  17. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Frankly, I personnaly don't have a problem with the pace of games or the herky jerky tempo. I record them, watch on delay, and fast forward during the commercials and half time. Of if I don't get the network broadcast I'll do the same on Game Pass. However, it is bad for the game and the typical fan experience, and that is a growing problem.

    The games would move faster under the template I propose as it is implemented in phases after preseason tests. In fact, since you don't beta test something in the live marketplace unless you're Elon Musk, you start by running it in the background and fine tune the process in a virtual environment. There are not 7 infractions on every play, but if they are excessive then you send reports and videos to the teams from these dry runs so the players will clean it up. Maybe you do modify or even eliminate some rules in the process. They you reiterate, rinse and repeat, until you get the system ready for prime time.

    At the end of the day it is human judgement, but the quality of any judgement is dependent on the tools and information that goes into it.

    The NFL would have to spend money on something they have never wanted to spend money on: quality control. As it stands, they take a defective process and keep layering on more purported "fail safe" reviews and challenges on the back end. They're at the limit. The league, the coaches, the players, the fans, the media, everybody, is now conditioned to evaluate a play in slo-mo replay. The closer you move that to the front end of the process the better results you'll get. Advances in video technology (and more cameras) is analogous to DNA testing. As these technologies have advanced we have become aware of how acutely defective "eye witness testimony" happens to be. We're at the point where the refs don't make certain calls, let the play run, and defer to review. They don't even trust their eye witness testimony.

    The second prong of the current quality issues is consistency of interpretation even in slo-mo reveiw. The very least they could do under the current system, which my template would require, is having full time officials. We get two different ex-officials on two different broadcasts coming up with widely varying interpretations of the rules. As LaFleur said, we don't know what pass interference is because of these inconsistencies. You can't herd and drill the cats if all they do is fly in Saturday, pick up a Sunday game check, and fly out to their doctor, lawyer, Indian chief day job.

    I suspect they pay local yutzes a game check to man the booths who are charged with doing referrals to New York while understaffing the full time New Yorkers. I suspect, because the video evidence says so, those interminable delays on obvious calls are because the New York teams are momentarily occupied with reviews in other games. At the very least, staff up New York, get rid of the booth middle man, and quit with the commisseration. New York gets the final call anyway. The current process is a deferral to cheapness and the egos of their referees. This proposal alone would shave minutes off the games even if the quality isn't any better or worse.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  18. rmontro

    rmontro Cheesehead

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    Let's just say for the sake of argument that the refs handed us the game (or at least contributed to us winning).
    Rodgers said that the bad calls tend to even out over time.

    But I've been trying to think of another game when the refs gave us the game like that (and I don't think they gave us the game because even if we caught a break, we still had to execute afterwards to take advantage). I'm sure there must be some and my memory is just fuzzy. But it seems to me that we've been screwed over a lot more than vice versa.

    Dallas fans might point to the Dez Bryant non-catch, but that was not a catch under the rules at the time, no matter how many people cry over it. And even if that had been ruled a catch, there was still plenty of time left for us to come back and win. :p
     
  19. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    2 PI's missed in the Eagles game, that are sometimes called, sometimes not. Impactful, but so was failing to put it in from the 1 on 47 tries too. I exaggerate and realize one of those PI's could have been called then, but i digress.

    and 1 maybe 2 questionable calls on detroit not including a TD that may not have been, but all they could do is kick 50 yard FG's. outside of a couple early passes and 1 late, the did exactly jack squat in that game to win it.
     
  20. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    I'm not really feeling too bad over the Lions apparently "getting ripped off or cheated by the refs". The Referees were not what cost the Lions the game, from the second Q on, the Packers Defense and the Packers offense cost the Lions the game.

    The Lions second half drive chart:
    • 3 plays, -8 yards
    • 4 plays, 2 yards
    • 7 plays, 34 yards
    • 5 plays, 6 yards
    • 4 plays, 8 yards
    • 6 plays, 16 yards
     
  21. PackAttack12

    PackAttack12 R-E-L-A-X

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    This must be that 'awful' defense led by the 'awful' Mike Pettine that @Patriotplayer90 alludes to. ;)
     
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  22. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    That's what I said as well. There's no point in getting agitated one week when the calls go against you or sheepishly accepting or defending bad calls that go your way the next week given the current system. That doesn't mean the system isn't failing.

    This was only week 6. Nothing final is decided. Detroit might get a bunch of favorable calls next week. C'est la vie, sh*t happens.

    But when you examine the current officiating system a couple of things emerge:

    (1) It's underfunded, undertrained and clumsy.

    (2) It seems the NFL treats their 1099 field officials according to the legal definition (which nobody else actually does), which is that they do not take direction from the employer and work under their own guidance, independent contractors in the literal sense. You can't lock these guys in a room in the desert for a month pouring over film to get them on the same page. They have day jobs.

    (3) You can go along with Jerry Seinfeld's "even Steven" walk through this football life, but when you get to plays that decide whether you get into the playoffs, or plays that decide elimination from the playoffs, or those that decide a Super Bowl, then "even Steven" doesn't work. It's why we get changes to the process out of these games.

    (4) "Even Steven" is an acceptance of widespread randomness in disconnect with a system purportedly under expert conrol.

    (5) The NFL could do themselves a service by communicating to the fan base the rationale for certain decisions. Do they have a legitimate basis for determining that one Flowers hands-to-the-face was a good call and the other a bad one? Show me. Break down the video. I'll watch and listen. Without it, it just sounds like a split-the-difference "even Steven" and move on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  23. MichiganSportsTalk

    MichiganSportsTalk Lions fan for longer than I can remember

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    Well, they had a 9 point lead up until things got nuts. A GB drive that should have ended in a punt resulted in 7 points due to an errant call, then a Detroit drive was killed on a missed DPI (already in field goal range), and another GB drive was extended on another errant call (killing clock in the process).

    You cannot simply make the argument that Detroit didn't do enough while ignoring that without those 3 events occurring, GB's chances to win go down significantly.
     
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  24. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    Detroit couldn't do anything but kick 50 yard FG's. They had a couple passes early that worked well and got them a questionable TD if we're going to question calls Outside of that they didn't do much.

    It's why I can't complain about officials much with the Philly game despite some that seemed pretty obvious non calls. We couldn't score from a yard away on multiple possessions and opportunities. Sure these calls affect a game, but they don't decide it. And while some may think the 1st call was questionable, why was it questionable? if you say there was "nothing" there then I'm guessing you're not really looking. and maybe there were 10 0ther times in the game the ref said, hey, watch it. and he didn't.
     
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  25. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    What I can't understand is what the NFL is trying to do with their new PI replay rule. The stat I saw is that only 1 out of 25 challenged PI calls has been successful (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...early-evaluate-nfl-new-pass-interference-rule).

    I think that many of those were challenging plays that met the normal standard for pass interference, where any act by a player significantly hinders an eligible player’s opportunity to catch the ball. What NFL vice president Troy Vincent said is that coaches should know "the bar is higher than a normal review" with these calls. WTF does that mean? You can't define an act, and then say that to challenge a call, it needs to be more than that definition of the act. So a player must not just significantly hinder the catch, but egregiously? How does a coach know when they act has passed the bar from "significantly" to "egregious?"
     
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