Tramon Williams says NFL teams caught up to Dom Capers' scheme

[gonzozab]

Tramon stating the obvious.


https://www.jsonline.com/story/spor...ers-tramon-williams-dom-capers-nfl/581444002/

The most glaring evidence of this is the two playoff losses to the Niners when Kaepernick and that read option offense ran roughshod over the defense, and continued into the Seattle meltdown when the Seahawks made their comeback.

 

[Mondio]

it's a little light on specifics, and while I do think there was a fair bit of teams "catching on" there are no secrets in the NFL. I think Dom was limited at times with available personnel, like Andy Mulumba being your best pass rusher on the field at one point. The 9er game was a long time ago and the read option didn't last very long. The Seahawks didn't catch on to anything. If that was their plan, the executed horribly for 55 minutes with their 5 turnovers and zero offensive production. It took a string of pretty uncommon events to all happen in a single game and a compressed time frame for them to pull off that win. For figuring out Dom's defense, they surely didn't perform like it. There are 100 other things I would point to other than those 2 games, and still it probably boils down mostly to miscommunication as even last year our defense would be very good on 2 downs and then leave a receiver running free somewhere the next with 3 guys on 1 somewhere on the field.

I'm not arguing that Dom was ahead of the curve his entire career, but I also think this article is nothing more than talking yourself into why it's better now. After a few weeks, teams are going to figure out what Pettine is doing too. There will be new wrinkles for us as fans, but the NFL has seen this all before. Now they just have to figure out when and how Petting will employ it, and they will. In the end, you must execute. If they have breakdowns in coverage like they have had recently, it won't matter who's calling the plays.

 

[LambeauLombardi]

The single biggest reason why this team hasn't been back to another Super Bowl, and it's not even close.

 

[PackerDNA]

[QUOTE="Mondio, post: 776521, member: 10441"
In the end, you must execute. If they have breakdowns in coverage like they have had recently, it won't matter who's calling the plays.[/QUOTE]

This. You can only reinvent the wheel so many times.

 

[PikeBadger]

[QUOTE="Mondio, post: 776521, member: 10441"
In the end, you must execute. If they have breakdowns in coverage like they have had recently, it won't matter who's calling the plays.

This. You can only reinvent the wheel so many times.[/QUOTE]
Schemes don’t win games, players do.

 

[GleefulGary]

This. You can only reinvent the wheel so many times.

Schemes don’t win games, players do.[/QUOTE]

Yup. No difference between what Jeff Fisher and Sean McVay did with Jared Goff. None at all.

 

[gbgary]

The single biggest reason why this team hasn't been back to another Super Bowl, and it's not even close.

talent on the D side might have something to do with it too.

 

[LambeauLombardi]

talent on the D side might have something to do with it too.

I'd put that # 2, but Capers' ineptness takes the cake. He never adapted. The bad miscommunications leaving receivers wide open have been a problem since 2011. Even when Hawk was around there were way too many miscommunications, and it just got worse after he left. Simplify the playbook for the young guys just a little. Guys that have been in the system for 1-2 years won't be able to comprehend it as quick as a veteran like Collins, Woodson, or Hawk would.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Tramon stating the obvious.


https://www.jsonline.com/story/spor...ers-tramon-williams-dom-capers-nfl/581444002/

The most glaring evidence of this is the two playoff losses to the Niners when Kaepernick and that read option offense ran roughshod over the defense, and continued into the Seattle meltdown when the Seahawks made their comeback.

It's a fair point but I don't get why he'd bring it up now. Capers has been gone for months now and it's like 1265 still hasn't moved on. I just gotta wonder....

Are people going to say Capers is in his living room with a headset on and a controller if the defense struggles in any games this year?

Well, on a more serious note, I'm more curious about what Tramon Williams thinks about Joe Whitt.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Schemes don’t win games, players do.

Does that mean you admit that Thompson didn't provide Capers with enough talent???

 

[rmontro]

Schemes don’t win games, players do.

What was the point of that 8,000 page "Fire Capers" thread, then?

Besides, if it's all on the players, maybe they should make me the next DC.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Capersay not have had a ton of talent but when guys like Hayward and Hyde leave and become pro bowlers you also see scheme is an issue. So is working to your player's strength. It was not just a talent issue. The same routes kept beating us. Players didn't seem to develop outside a few. Our blitzes were very predictable.

 

[AmishMafia]

Capersay not have had a ton of talent but when guys like Hayward and Hyde leave and become pro bowlers you also see scheme is an issue. So is working to your player's strength. It was not just a talent issue. The same routes kept beating us. Players didn't seem to develop outside a few. Our blitzes were very predictable.

I don't think most fans can discern poor coaching from poor talent. The Hayward/hyde evidence is strong as well as the whole Capers career pattern of success early then degrading each season after. It's not a coincidence also, that our DBs generally do well early then wane later. Haha, Rollins and Randall are the recent examples.

You only have to watch a game though and see the confusion in the defensive backfield. A general lack of cohesive play on that side of the ball.

The theory that TT only knew how to draft offensive talent is one of the sillier ideas.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The theory that TT only knew how to draft offensive talent is one of the sillier ideas.

Thompson was definitely more successful drafting offensive players though.

 

[AmishMafia]

Thompson was definitely more successful drafting offensive players though.

How do you know?

 

[AmishMafia]

Thompson was definitely more successful drafting offensive players though.

Tt has drafted more all pro defensive players (3) over the last few years than offensive players (1). Bahtari is the only offensive all pro over the last 3 years however Haha, Hayward, and Hyde have all been 2nd team All Pro. All DBs and still the packers had one of the worst secondaries in the entire NFL last season.

So you are wrong. TT actually had more success drafting defensive talent than offensive talent.

 

[Mondio]

Schemes don’t win games, players do.

Yup. No difference between what Jeff Fisher and Sean McVay did with Jared Goff. None at all.[/QUOTE]
I'm definitely not saying coaching doesn't make a difference. Look at the difference between Mclean and Lombardi, same cast of losers that won a single game one year pretty much built the most iconic team in the NFL. Coaching absolutely makes a difference. But the improvement we'll see on defense will be from better understanding, better execution, better experience etc. Pettine will have new looks for us, not new looks for the NFL. Did Goff re-invent an offense? he certainly got more out of them, and I do not watch the Rams, but I'd be willing to bet he did it by running schemes, themes and plays that they've all seen before. In my opinion, Capers defense always had that softer middle area, by design. They'd run things to get favorable down and distances, and try and force turnovers and as they got closer to an endzone the middle zones got smaller. Force TO's and FG's over TD's. But the past few seasons I think the majority of the defenses faults came in break downs of responsibility, not because that defense couldn't work. I'm sure Dom had some tendencies figured out over the years. You can't coach that long and not have that happen. Most guys get figured out in a season.

 

[gbgary]

I'd put that # 2, but Capers' ineptness takes the cake. He never adapted. The bad miscommunications leaving receivers wide open have been a problem since 2011. Even when Hawk was around there were way too many miscommunications, and it just got worse after he left. Simplify the playbook for the young guys just a little. Guys that have been in the system for 1-2 years won't be able to comprehend it as quick as a veteran like Collins, Woodson, or Hawk would.

i kinda think it's the opposite. a predictable D would have been successful had it been filled with talented players. look at seattle. they don't do anything exotic. they just get in your face and play you straight up. capers was given average players, busts in some cases, and some asked to play out of position. teds drafts sucked for the most part and there was zero help from free agency. it finally caught up to both of them but the Packers didn't act on it for a couple of years out of loyalty, or whatever, which compounded the problem.

 

[Dantés]

It’s can’t be denied that execution is paramount if you’re going to be successful in executing a scheme. And yet scheme design still matters more in football than in just about any other sport. Capers’ defense was very difficult both to execute by the defense and to diagnose by the offense when he took over 10 years ago. But over time, offenses caught on to their looks, tendencies, and disguises. The defense didn’t evolve well enough in turn, still leaving it difficult to execute but not terribly hard to diagnose. He’s a great football mind, but he was stuck in a rut. The best coaches in the game are constantly changing their approach and when they cease to do so, they fall behind.

 

[ARPackFan]

Schemes don’t win games, players that understand and can implement those schemes do.

It's the job of coaching to get the most out the players. This is where Capers failed. If the players struggle with the scheme then they are likely to not react properly on the field.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Tt has drafted more all pro defensive players (3) over the last few years than offensive players (1).

Although true, you have to look at how much draft capital TT invested in the defense over those years. He spent a disproportionate amount of high picks on the defense. A few worked out, many didn't/haven't. This might be what finally led to letting Capers go, as well as push TT out as GM. I mean how many whacks do you get at using a large portion of each draft on trying to improve the defense and those players were either not very good or poorly coached?

Even this year, with Gute in charge, the Packers went into yet another draft knowing the defense had to be improved. Doing this too many years in a row has suddenly left the offense with some question marks, that may not have existed if more draft capital could have been spent on the offense in the last 3-4 drafts.

 

[Mondio]

Although true, you have to look at how much draft capital TT invested in the defense over those years. He spent a disproportionate amount of high picks on the defense. A few worked out, many didn't/haven't. This might be what finally led to letting Capers go, as well as push TT out as GM. I mean how many whacks do you get at using a large portion of each draft on the defense and those players were either not very good or poorly coached?

I would say outside of Datone, who had the physical skills and Worthy, there weren't really any bad high round picks. Sure some haven't worked out. But Randall is freaking talented. He is, you can see it when he plays. He needs to be coached and accountable and maybe he's just a headcase. IMO he has the skills to be an impact player somewhere better than AJ Hawk type at his position and probably a tick or 2 lower than Clay Matthews in his prime type impact at his respective position. Perry is good, but injured a lot. Hayward is good, Daniels is good. Dix should be better, but has the capablity to be good. Clark is damn good and still 2 years away from even touching his physical prime. Kevin King we'll see and Jones too.

I think way too much is made of this wasting of high draft picks. I can count 2 that were not all that great in Datone and Worthy and in many years if a defensive guy went 1, there was a pretty high offensive guy taken in the 2nd. and it we just take rounds 1-4 and start counting, I bet it's fairly even over any 3-4 year span.

 

[Dantés]

Any time you have a struggling unit, it’s bound to be the cause of some combination of talent and scheme. Some cases tilt more heavily one way, and some the other. One tell tale sign to me that the Packers’ defensive issues have been more attributable to scheme than talent (more, not totally), is that it seems one can identify a strangely large number of good individual players over the seasons for a unit that has struggled so mightily.

Clark, Daniels, Matthews, Perry, Peppers, Martinez, Shields, Hayward, Clinton-Dix, Burnett, etc. Several above average players, most of whom played together. Certainly there have also been some talent deficiencies, but most units in the league have some weaker spots that have to be made up. The bottom line to me is that latter day Capers was coaching a unit that amounted to less than the sum of its parts, which is essentially the opposite of what a coordinator is paid to do.

If you look at the talent on Pettine’s defenses essentially everywhere he’s been, I think you’ll agree that he has tended to get more out of the unit as a whole than one would expect from that particular group of players.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I would say outside of Datone, who had the physical skills and Worthy, there weren't really any bad high round picks. Sure some haven't worked out. But Randall is freaking talented. He is, you can see it when he plays. He needs to be coached and accountable and maybe he's just a headcase. IMO he has the skills to be an impact player somewhere better than AJ Hawk type at his position and probably a tick or 2 lower than Clay Matthews in his prime type impact at his respective position. Perry is good, but injured a lot. Hayward is good, Daniels is good. Dix should be better, but has the capablity to be good. Clark is damn good and still 2 years away from even touching his physical prime. Kevin King we'll see and Jones too.

I think way too much is made of this wasting of high draft picks. I can count 2 that were not all that great in Datone and Worthy and in many years if a defensive guy went 1, there was a pretty high offensive guy taken in the 2nd. and it we just take rounds 1-4 and start counting, I bet it's fairly even over any 3-4 year span.

I'm not just talking about our first round pick, I am saying that the Packers over the last several years have spent far more overall draft capital on the defense and yet, here we are wondering if our defense is going to be the reason we do or don't have a successful season. You have to go back to 2014 to find an impact player on offense that was drafted, Davante Adams.

I'm not going to go through the exercise, but if you used the "Draft Value Trade Chart" to assign a numerical value to the picks used by the Packers in the last 5 drafts, you would see how skewed the numbers are. If you look at what the Vikings have done in the same time period, they too have spent a large chunk of their draft capital, although less than the Packers, on the defense, they have had different results.

 

[AmishMafia]

Although true, you have to look at how much draft capital TT invested in the defense over those years. He spent a disproportionate amount of high picks on the defense. A few worked out, many didn't/haven't. This might be what finally led to letting Capers go, as well as push TT out as GM. I mean how many whacks do you get at using a large portion of each draft on trying to improve the defense and those players were either not very good or poorly coached?

Even this year, with Gute in charge, the Packers went into yet another draft knowing the defense had to be improved. Doing this too many years in a row has suddenly left the offense with some question marks, that may not have existed if more draft capital could have been spent on the offense in the last 3-4 drafts.

That is a valid point.

But I would also point out that TT has drafted 3 all-pro DBs several years ago. We should not have had to use so much draft capital in the past few years. Randall, Rollins and King were picked to replace all pro players who were underperforming with Capers. My bet is Randall will play at a higher level for the browns than he did here.

When you think about it, Hyde, Hayward, Shields, Haha, Burnett should have been a very formidable backfield. Shields loss was a shame, but still, TT had a lot of talent there.

As far as going forward, I have no problem with the high draft picks this year we needed 1 starter and one depth player. I think Jackson in the 2nd was a case were he was the clear highest graded player and they went BPA.