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The Sunshine Patriot

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by TJV, Dec 6, 2013.

  1. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    The recent losing streak has predictably brought out the Thompson haters who only appear after a Packers loss, or in this case, string of losses. Ironically, and sadly for them, just as they couldn’t fully enjoy Super Bowl XLV, they’re now in ‘pig heaven’. That was as predictable as the sun setting in the west. The losing streak has also revealed how spoiled some Packers fans are and while that’s not a big surprise, Packers fans as a group are supposed to be some of the best fans in sports, aren’t we?

    IMO those spoiled fans were revealed as they agreed with a certain banned troll who, along with outrageous boasts, posted things like he ‘wouldn’t be associated with a losing team’. They are also revealed by actually posting ‘What have you done for me lately?’ or including that sentiment in a post even if the words aren’t used. As I posted before, some apparently aren’t aware that phrase is used - or at least used to be used - to portray someone who says it as an ungrateful and whiny brat lacking perspective. They are also revealed as fair weather fans (BTW, that’s not a compliment either) who post they’ll watch the Packers as long as they’re winning. As an old man who followed the Packers as intently as I do today (without the benefit of the internet of course) during the ‘dark ages’ (post Lombardi, pre-Wolf) I’d be lying if I said that doesn’t disgust me a little bit. BTW, I mean “disgusted” in the context of sports and we fanatics who follow sports.

    So here’s my attempt to provide some perspective to anyone willing to hear it: Some Packers fans complain when the Packers are one-and-done in the playoffs, but some teams struggle to even make the playoffs: The list of longest playoff droughts begins with a 13 year wait for the Bills, 10 for the Raiders and the Browns, and eight for the Rams…

    And of course it sucks not going deep into the playoffs, but it sucks more not winning a playoff game for decades. Here’s the beginning of the list of the longest playoff victory droughts: Bengals 22 seasons, Lions 21, Chiefs 19, Bills 17, Browns 15, Dolphins 12, Raiders 10 and the Buccaneers (now eliminated this season) 11. Another 5 franchises have waited more than 5 years for a single playoff win.

    How about having to suffer through two entire seasons and most of a third not winning a Super Bowl! That really sucks, right? Still better than these teams which existed at the time of, or prior to, the first Super Bowl who have never won a Super Bowl: Falcons Cardinals, Lions, Eagles, Oilers/Titans, Chargers, Browns, Bills, and Vikings. And better than five teams which came into existence after the first Super Bowl which have never won one: Bengals, Seahawks, Panthers, Jaguars, and Texans.

    [caution inevitable historical analogy approaching] If you know American history you know who Thomas Paine was. He wrote several pamphlets before and during the Revolutionary War and in perhaps his most famous one published in December of 1776, he began with these words: “THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; …” Here’s the entire text: http://www.ushistory.org/paine/crisis/c-01.htm [/analogy]

    None of this is to say criticizing Thompson and/or McCarthy and/or anyone else in the Packers organization is wrong. I’m certainly not advocating blindly agreeing with everything done in Green Bay. But the way some are posting you would think the Packers hadn’t won a playoff game, let alone a title in a decade or more. And some are coming across as the worst kind of ‘entitled’ and immature children all too common in our culture. For all of their faults, one of the things that is remarkable about the tenure of Thompson and McCarthy in Green Bay is how out of the ordinary this losing/tying streak is. So in these trying times, buck up and grow up: You could have been born a Bengals fanatics!
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
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  2. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    They must also think that all 24 teams that didn't make the divisional round last year or the year before should have had mass firings. Well, they probably don't, but based on their expectations, they should.

    Besides, all personnel can realistically can do is make a team a contender, which they were the past two seasons. A coach and GM can never guarantee a Super Bowl win even by having all the talent in the world. We all found out in 2011 that the best team doesn't get all the way. Manning's Colts showed that multiple times and then his Broncos did too.

    As far as this season, teams go through rough stretches even without lots of injuries. Last year's champs ended the regular season losing four out of five. Belichick's Pats didn't make the playoffs the year following his first Super Bowl. The 2011 Giants lost four games in a row. Even the once God awful Jaguars might have finally figured it out. Just because we've had poor play recently doesn't mean the coach or GM are bad at their jobs. I guarantee those team's fans called for some firings during those stretches. A common theme between teams that go through coaches quickly is that they haven't been good for years. See the Browns and Raiders. We're talking about five games games. Not five bad seasons. Not one bad season. Five bad games. Let it run its course and we'll see if it turns around. If it doesn't and lasts all next season (which based on Rodgers being back and TT's proven history of turning this team around) then maybe they should consider big changes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  3. Packerlifer

    Packerlifer Cheesehead

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    It might be worth pointing out that only 2 teams in the NFL have a more recent Super Bowl Championship than the Packers.
     
  4. weeds

    weeds Cheesehead

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    ^^^ up you go ... this should almost be made a stuck thread. Good post Jack, my sentiments exactly. A small addition to your list of jabs at the kiddies and the spoiled fans, and/or the guys who should limit themselves to Fantasy Football ... you forgot the "tankers". The guys who would advocate benching Rodgers if he's medically cleared to play to either give Tolzien snaps and/or secure a better draft pick. Tankers are the worst of the lot in my book.
     
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  5. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    I had posted the same sentiment about the tankers in one of the other threads and got maybe 2 people who agreed with me (not that I am all that worried about that) and was just thinking to myself "wth?" I actually had more people give me a disagree than agree when I said that if Rodgers is cleared to play, he should play and that an NFL team should NEVER play for draft position. That thread even went so far as to have one poster actually trying to tell me that the medical staff of the Green Bay Packers has NOTHING to do with clearing Rodgers to play! Again, wth? I guess the waterboy is the one that give A-Rod the go ahead right?

    My point is that, in times like this all the crazies come out and unfortunately, the crazies are always the most vocal so we have to put up with a lot of this crap.

    I am glad you said this because all to often I think we see the tale of two extremes during times like this. We see those that most of your post concerns, the entitled, ungrateful fans who want it all or the blindly "in Ted & Mike we trust"crowd that truly believe there is nothing wrong in GB when all evidence points to the contrary. There are some things that need to be addressed and fixed in GB and I believe any rational fan knows this, but, I also believe any rational fan realizes that sending Thompson packing is not going to solve any of those issues.

    I will add one more nugget as to the quality of football we have gotten to watch since 1992, since that time there is not a single NFL franchise that has a higher winning percentage, more playoff appearances, or less losing seasons than Packers! There are a couple that are close, in fact the Patriots will probably pull even with us after this year.

    So just think about that if you are fan of the Packers, for the last 20 years, you have been a fan of the most successful team in the NFL in that time span.

    The final thing I will say is that if we are lucky we have maybe 6 or 7 more years of opportunity ahead of us with Rodgers at the helm and I do hope our organization finds a way to take advantage of that and get us to another Super Bowl. I believe the team failed miserably after Holmgren left in finding a replacement coach that was going to help keep Favre in check instead of the long string of coaches that let him do whatever he wanted.

    My only fear is that the current regime will do something similar and not find a way to fix the problems this team does have while we have yet another HOF QB under center. I do believe this team has gotten too complacent in the fact that they believe as long as we have Rodgers there is chance, and while that is certainly true, more can be done to make that chance better. I firmly believe that this team should be and can be another mini dynasty in the vein of the 2000 Patriots, the 90's cowboys, the 80's 49er's and the 70's Steelers where multiple Super Bowls can be won.

    Does that make me spoiled or entitled? I don't think so, it just means I would love to see this organization take advantage of the opportunity in front of them. We are already the greatest franchise in the history of the NFL, I would like to see us add more during the modern era to truly cement that comment as being fact.
     
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  6. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    Ever run into the stupid people who think fractures and breaks are different? Or even worse, the ones who think collar bones and clavicles are different bones?

    Those people amuse me.
     
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  7. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    Don't get me started...
     
  8. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    I've been pretty upfront with my thoughts on Thompson and the team. He's a good GM; he's
    not perfect but none are. And while I understand the sentiment of "well at least we're not the Raiders" I don't necessarily think that should be the standard to which our GM is held. NFL windows are too short, looking at a guy and asking "how could he improve" seems like the way to go. I mean, when was the last time everyone was cool with MD Jennings because he could have been Roman Harper?

    Would love to agree with the overall post but I think the "grow up" comment at the end sort of ruins the rest. Comes across a little too condescending.
     
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  9. DevilDon

    DevilDon Inclement Weather Fan

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    Yep, nobody's perfect so what is the point? He's darned good though right? Top 5?
    Life windows are too short. I've been alive awhile by anyone's standards and I've seen 4 SB Victories you don't know when the next one will come. My advice: Enjoy what you DO see. Enjoy 15-1, enjoy one of greatest QBs to ever play the game. Enjoy a new RB who trucks defenders. Quit complaining your Ferrari gets bad gas mileage and enjoy the ride Sunshine.
    That will be less and less condescending as you actually grow up Sunshine. You'll take what you perceive as a personal affront and let it ruin a beautiful post? LOL, well grow up. Honestly, it's not pointed at you though it could be.
     
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  10. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    By your logic, so long as something good is going on with the team, then we should just ignore (or at least not discuss) the negatives. Sorry, I disagree.

    As for telling someone to grow up becoming less and less condescending, no it won't. The initial post was very well written and well thought out. There was abosultely no reason to throw some random back handed shot at people simply for disagreeing. Generally when people say grow up, it's because either they have no real rebuttal and it's simply a way to try and deflect the conversation or it's in response to someone who has turned a conversation into a personal attack (e.g., telling someone to grow up because they insult your mother in a reply). Grow up implies that the person you're talking with is immature. That's condescending. I didn't take it as a personal affront, I generally just don't like posts that attempt to insult others. Just because people don't agree with your point of view, so long as they keep the discussion civil and on topic, doesn't make them intellectually inferior.
     
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  11. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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  12. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I think you protest too much, Sunshinepacker. You say you didn’t take it personally but your posts say otherwise. :D Perhaps this will help: Just to be clear, it was Thomas Paine who came up the phrase, "Sunshine Patriot"; neither he nor I had you in mind. BTW, the last sentence appears in italics for a reason. Secondly it's interesting you object to one two-word phrase but ignore who it is aimed at: "…those spoiled fans…", "…fair weather fans…", and "…some are coming across as the worst kind of 'entitled' and immature children all too common in our culture…" I was not condescending regarding someone with whom I disagree on a substantive matter, I was pointing out what I, and apparently a few others, view as an immature attitude displayed by some in this forum.
    I wasn’t implying some here are immature, I stated it outright.
    Now this is just hilarious. Of course he had to read it to know whether or not to post on this thread and by doing so, he 'self-selected' into the group which is the object of the OP. And because he can't really rebut this post because he alleges he doesn't know what it's about! :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
  13. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    TL;DR
     
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  14. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    From kindergarten in Minnesota and then California, to 3rd grade-high school back in Minnesota, thru college, the Packers were horrible, and I think won one playoff game, in a strike-shortened season over the Cardinals (St Louis or Arizona, I can't even remember)..... the Packers were a joke and embarrassment my whole scholastic career, and I got teased multiple times for wearing Packer jerseys and shirts, and being a Packer fan, in Minnesota.

    I know what lean years, decades, felt like.

    My kids have been born and grown up with us almost always making the playoffs.
    Heck, anyone (Packer fan) about 21 and under has been spoiled compared the the 20 years before that.

    That being said, like Ron Wolf publicly regretting only one ring in Green Bay, and like Mike McCarthy privately regretting only one ring in this unprecedented period of greatness from Aaron Rodgers (it won't last much longer), it is perfectly fine for coaches, management, journalists, players, and fans to wonder "what could have been".

    And when you go down that path, the could haves obviously are negative.

    The #1 culprit, in my opinion, is the "injury-God", or should we say "injury-devil".

    Ted (wisely) invested in back-to-back bookend, supposed-franchise OT's to protect "the franchise" with his 2010 & 2011 1st round picks (Bulaga & Sherrod).
    Had those 2 guys enjoyed the good health of guys like Ogden, Roaf, Hannah, Anthony Munoz, and all the 49er stud OL have been enjoying, then Rodgers would have had a great group of pass protectors all these years. His sacks would have been down, and Donny Barclay wouldn't have been out there trying to block Shea McClellin in the first place.

    The #2 culprit, in my opinion, has to be on the defensive side of the ball and that starts with the man running the defense, Dom Capers.

    The #3 culprit, in my opinion, are some personnel mistakes. The same guy who made the most brilliant draft-day move of the decade (that was trading up, and selecting Clay Matthews), and who had the ballz to snatch the free-falling Aaron Rodgers in 2005, and who found a diamond in the rough in Nick Collins, a Hall of Fame player (and quality person) for us, also has gone against the grain and has really avoided the building blocks via free agency.

    This has helped in some regards, but in cases like this year, it's backfired. The back end of the defense has been a black hole. All youth. Morgan Burnett has never shown to be a stud back there yet. He's still potential. And we know nobody else at Safety has stepped up yet.

    This was a position that everyone, fans, scouts, analysts, draftnicks, expected the Packers to select a guy high in this past draft, or the one before, and Ted did his own thing there, and it's results, are, as we all have seen, a failure back there as they have released last year's fairly-high pick McMillian.

    And then there's the backup QB deal, which, if you will remember, was ripped on by media local and nationwide, back in late August, when they first backed Graham Harrell, and Vinny Young, and BJ Coleman, and then they cast em all away at the last minute, giving up on those projects, and banking that Rodgers would never go down.

    That was terrible work there.
    Bad judgment, bad timing. Bad planning.
    And it has come back to take a huge bite in the arse.
    As everyone can now see this past 5 games.
    All we needed was a win or two in these past 5 games, and we'd be still in first place.

    I'm thankful we had Wolf, and have Thompson. They each made some brilliant moves to give us tons of happy moments and to 3 Super Bowls.
    Half of my best friends are Viking fans. Poor grape ape fans.
    I know what that could be like, and we've been blessed and lucky as fans.

    But Wolf and Thompson both made some mistakes, they both admit, that cost them, perhaps, another title or two. Wolf expected a mini-dynasty.

    Thompson, I just want him to fill some holes for once via free agency, like HIS Woodson and Pickett additions.
    If he doesn't adapt, I think we've seen the last Super Bowl in awhile, because solely relying on "draft & develop" will not improve us enough, especially the defense.

    Everyone else drafts too. Drafting is always a gamble. It's easier to project a guy who you have seen play in the NFL than a guy who's best competition was against an SEC or Big 10 team.

    A lot of great players have been acquired via free agency around the league.
    Not only Super Bowl winning QBs like Peyton Manning, Drew Brees & Kurt Warner, but the Ravens last year, Anquan Boldin? He was a free agent addition from the Cardinals a few years before. He won that game for them.

    Many offensive lineman, linebackers, and defensive backs on great teams were added via free agency.
    We obviously failed with Jerron McMillian the draft pick, and MD Jennings looks like a failure as well, at least so far... he's still "developing".

    I don't have a problem with anyone questioning things.
    Just whining and complaining about everything, while not acknowledging the good moves, that's uncalled for.
     
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  15. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Quite the contrary. I opened the thread and saw a giant wall of text and didn't feel like reading it.

    But now that I have, I do now realize I could be grouped into what you are referring to, even though I think your arguments and "offered perspective" is a little dumb and the little history lesson was a little condescending and reeks of elitism.

    First of all, there is always more to talk about after a loss, than a win. Which is why you see increased posting volume after a loss. What is there really to discuss after a win but "we won, so and so looked great, on to the next game"?

    When a team loses a number of things are going wrong, and that will always generate more discussion. Because everyone is trying to figure out what it was. When a team wins, there is no discussion, just nuthugging and often stating the obvious.

    Secondly, I'm really over comparing the struggles of another team to our own. I couldn't care less about the struggles of another team. I care about our team and our struggles. When you are labeled as a perennial contender for not only the playoffs but the Superbowl, there are expectations. Not just as an organization, but as a fan base. And there is nothing wrong with voicing displeasure at failing to live up to those expectations. Even though a lot of it may be overreacting. There is still a resonance of concern for your team, so how can you say that isn't being a fan? Now you and others want me and others to "be thankful we aren't the Bengals or the Buccaneers or the Vikings." Give me a break, Mediocrity and failing is mediocrity and failing. Regardless of the degree.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
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  16. P-E-Z

    P-E-Z Cheesehead

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    To be honest part of our bad season is injuries, part coaching part front office. Are there some changes needed. But there no need to be hating. We have some weakness they will be addressed and we will be in hunt in the future...... of course we are not dead yet this year.
     
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  17. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    No, not thxJackVaniesi, condescending? Elitism?
    Him?
    He knows everything (about society as well, not just the Packers), how can that be?
     
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  18. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Here is where some posters go awry. 'All evidence points to the contrary' is something actually believed. They chose to ignore the SB victory; the 15-1 season; and the impressive streak of playoff appearances. The success of Thompson in his time in GB is impressive. Why suddenly, after a few losses, is the system broken? Are there issues? Yes. Is 'all evidence' pointing to something wrong? No! Not even close. The system is what it is and it has produced one of the youngest most successful franchises in the NFL.

    The 'spoiled' part comes in when the expectation is for near perfection. Every season the Packers should go 15-1 and win a SB. Anything less than that produces venomous posts from certain posters directed at TT. If there was a couple franchises out there who signed 2 or 3 FAs and thus win the SB every season then I would agree, signing FAs is what we need to do. But from what I see, more teams are adapting the TT philosophy and are now experiencing more success. Not sure why the desire is to step backward into some mythical panacea of FAs.
     
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  19. weeds

    weeds Cheesehead

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    Me neither...and I liked the way that was framed up "........ mythical panacea...."

    Good construction. :)
     
  20. buggybill2003

    buggybill2003 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I`m going out on a very dodgy limb here but I feel it needs to be said. The doubters of todays result, of which I was one, didn`t see us with a chance without Rodgers playing. WE were wrong. Those who say they knew we were still going to fight for it ? yeah, you were right, but honestly ??? did you really think we had a chance with the defense playing as bad as they were ?
    I respect a hell of a lot of you guys on here. I respect your opinions, and your knowledge so I`m asking politely, can`t we just enjoy the win today and stop with the "I told you so !" stuff just for a short while ?? The beauty of the forum is that people can have different opinions and can express them here. I don`t think this one win makes it all right again, something is wrong at this ball club, with the coaching ? with the conditioning ? TT ? MM ? who REALLY knows ? not us certainly. I`m just disappointed to see bickering instead of enjoying it for what it was......a very slim lifeline.

    Just my two cents, sorry
     
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  21. weeds

    weeds Cheesehead

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    Bill, your expression of your doubts is nowhere NEAR the level that some have taken to bash the Pack and it's construction. I wouldn't make a prediction on the score and only a bald faced liar would say that they were 100% confident that the Pack would win today. This win was ugly...very ugly against a struggling team -- just like the Pack.

    Sometimes, just sometimes ... it's best to just let the guys play out the game and see where the wins and losses fall. Hopefully, we'll be able to put 4 wins together and watch as Detroit implodes. If they do and the Pack get into the playoffs where ANYTHING can happen, but only if you get in. That's all I want -- and I really don't give a rat's behind about who is 'right' and who is 'wrong' because essentially, none of us know what in the hell we're talking about anyway. :)
     
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  22. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    If you don't think they are problems in Green Bay that need to be addressed, then you simply are a homer. I never said that we were not doing things well, but this team needs more if it is going to contend for another SB title, denying that is simply foolhardy.

    People like you seem to choose the greatness of this team being destroyed by the lousy performances put in by our defenses. But hey, I am sure you would be fine with another playoff appearance with a quick exit because an historically bad defensive performance in the playoffs yet one again.

    You are simply proving the point of my whole post, you are on the other extreme of all the doomsayers who say fire everyone. You blindly ignore the serious problems with parts of the team and say everything is fine. It is not, there are some serious issues, especially on the defensive side of the ball that need to be addressed.

    And I am so beyond sick of blind homerism leading to people like myself who see and understand that the Packers are not perfect and need to get better being called spoiled. It is ridiculous. There was another thread where I talked about Ted being a great GM and pointed out the fact that the last time the Packers had Super Bowl success was a direct result of some FA moves that were made, I also said that there really has not been much available the last few years in this department.

    So where is all your FA talk after quoting my post coming from?
     
  23. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    If there was an available free agent who could Ted felt could help the team at a reasonable price, he'd be signed.

    It's not like he just doesn't feel like signing guys. He won't risk hurting the cap.
     
  24. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    There is an old saying - plays are on the players; games are on coaches; and seasons are on the GM. Ripping on TT as soon as they start to stumble - ignoring all the past success - is like ripping on Rodgers as soon as he throws a bad pass.
     
  25. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Anaylsis of the Packers needs to go deeper than, did they win? They are good. Did they lose? TT sucks!
     

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