Ted Drafting in the Trenches

[Ace]

Compare the list of Ted’s offensive lineman to defensive lineman. This is why I don’t want him to go defensive line, especially early. There’s like one guy you could maybe say was a great pick (Raji which I think "great" is a huge reach) on the defensive line group, and maybe 2-3 good.

Offensive line you could pick out like 3-4 guys that were great and 2-3 that were good. For as BAD as TT was at drafting O-Lineman early in his time here, he has really made up for it the past couple of years.

Total players drafted: 18 – Will Whittacker, Junius Coston, Tony Moll, Jason Spitz, Daryn Colledge, Allen Barbre, Josh Sitton, Breno Giacomini, Jamon Meredith, T.J. Lang, Marshall Newhouse, Bryan Bulaga, Caleb Schlauderaff, Derek Sherrod, Andrew Datko, JC Tretter, David Bakhtiari, Corey Linsley.

Total players drafted: 15 – Mike Montgomery, Dave Tollefson, Johnny Jolly, Justin Harrell, Jeremy Thompson, Jarius Wynn, B.J. Raji, C.J. Wilson, Mike Neal, Lawrence Guy, Mike Daniels, Jerel Worthy, Josh Boyd, Datone Jones, Khyri Thornton.

I just thought it was interesting to see the improvement he's made drafting O-Lineman, and seems to be trending that way on the D-Lineman a little (Daniels and to a certain extent Boyd). I still think it's be in the teams best interest to not address it early especially with Guion and Raji back because track record would indicate he hasn't done the best job early in drafts on D-Lineman.

 

[yooperpackfan]

All I know is that in his 10 drafts Ted hasn't done very well on either side of the ball with regard to the trenches.
Starting with last year he has finally put together a reasonably decent offensive line.
On the defensive side of the ball Daniels and Jolly have been his best picks and there is alot of Question marks going into this year.

 

[Carl]

All I know is that in his 10 drafts Ted hasn't done very well on either side of the ball with regard to the trenches.
Starting with last year he has finally put together a reasonably decent offensive line.
On the defensive side of the ball Daniels and Jolly have been his best picks and there is alot of Question marks going into this year.

He's built a very good line including one of the best guards in the league, a steal at LT and rookie who was already a top ten center.

Completely false he hasn't done well on the offensive line.

 

[4foxes]

It has improved, but still a lot of work to do. Raji's contract has been extended one year will he be injury free and how many games will Guion be suspended before he can play.

 

[Ace]

All I know is that in his 10 drafts Ted hasn't done very well on either side of the ball with regard to the trenches.
Starting with last year he has finally put together a reasonably decent offensive line.
On the defensive side of the ball Daniels and Jolly have been his best picks and there is alot of Question marks going into this year.

Completely disagree with this. He has been building a great offensive line for the past 4 or 5 years. Early on yes he was atrotious I mean look at some of those early names but I think he has done a great job building this line.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Thompson has spent a total of six first round picks on either the offensive or defensive line during his tenure. Unfortunately Bryan Bulaga has been the only solid starter out of the group on both sides of the ball.

On the other hand TT has struck gold with late round picks in David Bahktiari, Josh Sitton, Corey Linsley, T.J. Lang and Mike Daniels.

The offensive line will be the best to start a season during his tenure (especially protecting Rodgers) with the DL either needing an upgrade at one or two positions depending on Raji's play.

 

[TJV]

Listing the rounds the players were drafted would lend some perspective IMO, but the point stands. If there were one position group Thompson would have been far better off emphasizing UFA, IMO it’s DL. Regarding OL, I wonder how much different his draft record would be without the introduction of the ZBS. One of its so called advantages is the ability to stock the OL with less than elite players and therefore not having to spend early draft picks. Also IMO losing both starting OGs when he first arrived was beyond Thompson's control: Mike Wahle's contract had a huge balloon payment due and it would have been a mistake to keep OG Rivera for the price Dallas paid him. Anyway, I agree with Carl, the Packers OL is now a very good one – “reasonably decent” is an understatement IMO.

The other caveat regarding both groups is to some extent Thompson is the victim of the Packers’ success: His average pick in the first round going into 10 drafts (before trades) is between 21 and 22, not counting #30 in the upcoming draft.

 

[Ace]

Listing the rounds the players were drafted would lend some perspective IMO, but the point stands. If there were one position group Thompson would have been far better off emphasizing UFA, IMO it’s DL. Regarding OL, I wonder how much different his draft record would be without the introduction of the ZBS. One of its so called advantages is the ability to stock the OL with less than elite players and therefore not having to spend early draft picks. Also IMO losing both starting OGs when he first arrived was beyond Thompson's control: Mike Wahle's contract had a huge balloon payment due and it would have been a mistake to keep OG Rivera for the price Dallas paid him. Anyway, I agree with Carl, the Packers OL is now a very good one – “reasonably decent” is an understatement IMO.

The other caveat regarding both groups is to some extent Thompson is the victim of the Packers’ success: His average pick in the first round going into 10 drafts (before trades) is between 21 and 22, not counting #30 in the upcoming draft.

This is also a VERY good point that I had thought of but wasn't sure when we implemented it. I believe switching to the zone scheme led to some of the early struggles he had drafting O-Lineman but has since figured out the type of guys that fit.

 

[TJV]

The ZBS was instituted when McCarthy arrived in 2006. IMO going away from it more and more has also helped the progress of the OL and Thompson's talent acquisition for it.

 

[Mondio]

On the topic of defensive linemen, i think it's a position that many teams miss on more than they hit. Looking thru an article on the best and worst picks for all 32 picks in round one, there are a few hits likeNgata, Wilfork, Hali and many more of the "worst" picks at 1-32 were DT's or DE's.

 

[AmishMafia]

Thompson has spent a total of six first round picks either the offensive or defensive line during his tenure. Unfortunately Bryan Bulaga has been the only solid starter out of the group on both sides of the ball.

2 were injured as rookies and never fully made it back.

Raji was a stud and helped us win a SB. I don't care if faltered after that, he was a great player and that was TT's job of bringing him to the Packers. Why he didn't stay good - was he suddenly unmotivated or maybe because he was playing 99% of snaps for a few years and burnt out - maybe that is why his play dropped off. Either way - those are coaching errors, not an error by TT.

As far as offensive line picks - I don't think TT has changed his selection process. There is a chance he now looks for different qualities or he modified the scouting staff that specializes in OL, but I think it was improvement of coaching. There are players who left here and had decent careers elsewhere - Giacommmi, Junious Coston, and I think Merideth all moved on and started games elsewhere to various degrees of success. Seems I am missing someone. Anyway, I think James Campen is slowly coming around as a coach and that has more to do with players now developing.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The other caveat regarding both groups is to some extent Thompson is the victim of the Packers’ success: His average pick in the first round going into 10 drafts (before trades) is between 21 and 22, not counting #30 in the upcoming draft.

The Packers have picked 21st on average (after trades) in the first round during Thompson's tenure. Only five teams have a higher average over the same period. That makes it really difficult to get sure fire prospects.

2 were injured as rookies and never fully made it back.

Raji was a stud and helped us win a SB. I don't care if faltered after that, he was a great player and that was TT's job of bringing him to the Packers. Why he didn't stay good - was he suddenly unmotivated or maybe because he was playing 99% of snaps for a few years and burnt out - maybe that is why his play dropped off. Either way - those are coaching errors, not an error by TT.

Harrell was injury prone in college, he shouldn't have been picked that high. While Sherrod suffered a terrible injury and we don't know how his career would have unfolded he wasn't off to a great start by not being able to get ahead of Marshall Newhouse as a first round pick for most of his rookie season.

You're right about Raji, can't blame Thompson for his lack of motivation.

 

[Ace]

The Packers have picked 21st on average (after trades) in the first round during Thompson's tenure. Only five teams have a higher average over the same period.

Who are the 5 other teams just out of curiosity? I'm going to guess New England, Pitt and Indy are 3 of them.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Who are the 5 other teams just out of curiosity? I'm going to guess New England, Pitt and Indy are 3 of them.

You got all three correct.

The Colts (24.5) have the highest average followed by the Giants (23.2), Steelers (23.0), Patriots (22.9) and Ravens (22.5).

Only two of these teams once had a pick within the top 10 during that span with Indy selecting Andrew Luck first and the Patriots picking Jerod Mayo at #10.

 

[Ace]

You got all three correct.

The Colts (24.5) have the highest average followed by the Giants (23.2), Steelers (23.0), Patriots (22.9) and Ravens (22.5).

Only two of these teams once had a pick within the top 10 during that span with Indy selecting Andrew Luck first and the Patriots picking Jerod Mayo at #10.

And what is that 7 SB's between those teams during that stretch? Yeah that Ted is clueless when it comes to assembling a team...

Sorry I couldn't resist.

 

[Half Empty]

And what is that 7 SB's between those teams during that stretch? Yeah that Ted is clueless when it comes to assembling a team...

Sorry I couldn't resist.

No sarcasm intended, I just really don't understand this. I'm assuming you're saying that he's NOT clueless, and that's obviously correct, but using these data doesn't support that. The five teams with worse draft position have 7 of the 10 SB wins putting him behind two of them, tied with the other three. Winning a SB while drafting after New Orleans and Seattle does help the argument a bit. What am I missing?

 

[Ace]

No sarcasm intended, I just really don't understand this. I'm assuming you're saying that he's NOT clueless, and that's obviously correct, but using these data doesn't support that. The five teams with worse draft position have 7 of the 10 SB wins putting him behind two of them, tied with the other three. Winning a SB while drafting after New Orleans and Seattle does help the argument a bit. What am I missing?

You're over thinking it, or maybe it doesn't make sense, which is VERY possible as well. Simply saying to anyone who doesn't agree with his methods that he is among the teams drafting at the end of the 1st round every year, the cream of the crop, the teams who continuously win SB's.

Apparently this was a failed attempt at humor and I'll be exiting stage left for the rest of the night.

 

[yooperpackfan]

He's built a very good line including one of the best guards in the league, a steal at LT and rookie who was already a top ten center.

Completely false he hasn't done well on the offensive line.

Really!
Bakhtiari is pretty shaky as has been Bulaga throughout his career. Until last year Bulaga was wildly inconsistent. He solidified his game in a contract year.
And finally last year he drafted a true center who wouldn't have started except for an injury, but was a good pick.
And finally after ten years of drafting the Packers aren't playing "musical chairs" when an injury arises.
Finally to be at this point after ten years is NOT DOING WELL.
Sitton AND Lang are solid and due to Thompson finally waking up we should have our center for the next 5 or 10 years, unless he lets him go in free agency which he has been known to do.

 

[yooperpackfan]

The ZBS was instituted when McCarthy arrived in 2006. IMO going away from it more and more has also helped the progress of the OL and Thompson's talent acquisition for it.

I agree with this.

 

[Carl]

Really!
Bakhtiari is pretty shaky as has been Bulaga throughout his career. Until last year Bulaga was wildly inconsistent. He solidified his game in a contract year.
And finally last year he drafted a true center who wouldn't have started except for an injury, but was a good pick.
And finally after ten years of drafting the Packers aren't playing "musical chairs" when an injury arises.
Finally to be at this point after ten years is NOT DOING WELL.
Sitton AND Lang are solid and due to Thompson finally waking up we should have our center for the next 5 or 10 years, unless he lets him go in free agency which he has been known to do.

Bulgua stepped in as a rookie and was very solid. He has been a good player while on the field. TT can't help a torn ACL and hip injury.

Yes, Bahktiari had a rough rookie season, but improved drastically. To get a starting LT in the 4th round is a complete steal.

You also act like it was never good before last lesson, which is false.

The line as whole was fantastic towards the end of the year no matter what nit picky things you'd like to say about it. If you want to complain about a line that was one of the best in the league last season, there's no point in continuing this discussion with you.

TT has never been known to let good young players go after a rookie deal too by the way.

 

[yooperpackfan]

Bulgua stepped in as a rookie and was very solid. He has been a good player while on the field. TT can't help a torn ACL and hip injury.

Yes, Bahktiari had a rough rookie season, but improved drastically. To get a starting LT in the 4th round is a complete steal.

You also act like it was never good before last lesson, which is false.

The line as whole was fantastic towards the end of the year no matter what nit picky things you'd like to say about it. If you want to complain about a line that was one of the best in the league last season, there's no point in continuing this discussion with you.

TT has never been known to let good young players go after a rookie deal too by the way.

Come on Carl, our offensive line has been truly offensive for most of Rodgers career. He has spent most of his time on the field with his head on a swivel running for his life. A QB with less mobility would have been carried out of the stadium in a coffin.
I didn't say anything about letting good young players go after a rookie deal but he let good players go. he let Wells a very good center walk and brought in Jeff dried up Saturday. He let EDS walk without having another decent center to fall back on.
Bak is still pretty damn shaky but has improved a bit.
Bulaga, throughout his career up until last year, we never knew which Bulaga was going to show up. One game he could look like the rock of Gibralter and the next game he looked like a swinging gate.
Right now I'm confident that we have a very good OL and they will get even better, but 10 years to build an OL when you have the best QB in the game does not make me ooze confidence in Ted Thompson.

And I won't even get into the defensive side. His defensive draft failures are readily apparent.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Bakhtiari is pretty shaky as has been Bulaga throughout his career. Until last year Bulaga was wildly inconsistent. He solidified his game in a contract year.
Sitton AND Lang are solid and due to Thompson finally waking up we should have our center for the next 5 or 10 years, unless he lets him go in free agency which he has been known to do.

Bakhtiari is excellent in protecting Rodgers but has to significantly improve in run blocking. Bulaga had some bad luck with injuries but has mostly been solid. Sitton and Lang are probably the best guard tandem in the league.

Bulgua stepped in as a rookie and was very solid. He has been a good player while on the field. TT can't help a torn ACL and hip injury.

The line as whole was fantastic towards the end of the year no matter what nit picky things you'd like to say about it. If you want to complain about a line that was one of the best in the league last season, there's no point in continuing this discussion with you.

A lot of people assume because we won the Super Bowl in 2010 that Bulaga had a solid season. The truth is though that he had a rough rookie year giving up a total of 13 sacks and a combined 53 pressures. He started to turn things around in 2011.

The OL did a fantastic job in pass protection in 2014, especially after Rodgers injured his calf. They still have a lot of room for improvement in run blocking though.

 

[Carl]

Come on Carl, our offensive line has been truly offensive for most of Rodgers career. He has spent most of his time on the field with his head on a swivel running for his life. A QB with less mobility would have been carried out of the stadium in a coffin.
I didn't say anything about letting good young players go after a rookie deal but he let good players go. he let Wells a very good center walk and brought in Jeff dried up Saturday. He let EDS walk without having another decent center to fall back on.
Bak is still pretty damn shaky but has improved a bit.
Bulaga, throughout his career up until last year, we never knew which Bulaga was going to show up. One game he could look like the rock of Gibralter and the next game he looked like a swinging gate.
Right now I'm confident that we have a very good OL and they will get even better, but 10 years to build an OL when you have the best QB in the game does not make me ooze confidence in Ted Thompson.

And I won't even get into the defensive side. His defensive draft failures are readily apparent.

So it's pretty easy to find pro football focus's offensive line rankings. Here is where the Packers have ranked throughout the years.

2014: 4th
2013: 10th
2012: 21th
2011: 11th
2010: 12th
2009: 22th

The premise that the line hasn't been good until last season is incorrect.

 

[Carl]

Bakhtiari is excellent in protecting Rodgers but has to significantly improve in run blocking. Bulaga had some bad luck with injuries but has mostly been solid. Sitton and Lang are probably the best guard tandem in the league.



A lot of people assume because we won the Super Bowl in 2010 that Bulaga had a solid season. The truth is though that he had a rough rookie year giving up a total of 13 sacks and a combined 53 pressures. He started to turn things around in 2011.

The OL did a fantastic job in pass protection in 2014, especially after Rodgers injured his calf. They still have a lot of room for improvement in run blocking though.

My point with Bakhtiari is not that he's been great, it's that to get a starting 4th round LT is a steal. LT is a very premium position. Yeah, he struggled right away, but he's now a starting quality player. Picking him was fantastic value.

You're right about Bulaga. I looked up his rookie season, and yeah he did have issues.

 

[Half Empty]

So it's pretty easy to find pro football focus's offensive line rankings. Here is where the Packers have ranked throughout the years.

2014: 4th
2013: 10th
2012: 21th
2011: 11th
2010: 12th
2009: 22th

The premise that the line hasn't been good until last season is incorrect.

Unless someone who holds the opposite opinion uses nfl.com's metric instead, in which case
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...onType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

2014 = 12th
2013 = 24th
2012 = 31st
2011 = 21st
2010 = 19th
2009 = 32