Ted Drafting in the Trenches

[Carl]

Unless someone who holds the opposite opinion uses nfl.com's metric instead, in which case
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...onType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

2014 = 12th
2013 = 24th
2012 = 31st
2011 = 21st
2010 = 19th
2009 = 32

PFF looks at the individual lineman grades for everything they did.

All you did on NFL.com is rank by the number of sacks.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Unless someone who holds the opposite opinion uses nfl.com's metric instead, in which case
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...onType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

2014 = 12th
2013 = 24th
2012 = 31st
2011 = 21st
2010 = 19th
2009 = 32

Only taking the total number of sacks allowed into consideration isn't the best way to rate the offensive line's play.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

All I know is that in his 10 drafts Ted hasn't done very well on either side of the ball with regard to the trenches.
Starting with last year he has finally put together a reasonably decent offensive line.
On the defensive side of the ball Daniels and Jolly have been his best picks and there is alot of Question marks going into this year.

He switched from "zone blocking" O-linemen. Which I refer to as runts of the litter. AFTER the Giants D-line stole a title from us. So the current O-line has been built only half thet time...

I think he switched to the same theory on D-line after the 2nd Giants loss... Before that it was thinner, pass rushing types. Or I like to call then runts of the litter Seriously though. He add some beef, and those guys are the ones turning this defense around. Jones was another one I would have prefered to be larger. But both Jones and Perry were physical freaks that were surely suposed to increase the pass rush... All in all we are on the right path.

I would like another big D-lineman contributor. Considering Raji, Guion, and Daniels contracts are coming up soon.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

So it's pretty easy to find pro football focus's offensive line rankings. Here is where the Packers have ranked throughout the years.

2014: 4th
2013: 10th
2012: 21th
2011: 11th
2010: 12th
2009: 22th

The premise that the line hasn't been good until last season is incorrect.

As I've said before the offensive line was great protecting Rodgers while they have to improve in run blocking. Last season the Packers OL were the best in the league in pass protection while only being ranked 17th in run blocking according to PFF.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I think he switched to the same theory on D-line after the 2nd Giants loss... Before that it was thinner, pass rushing types.

For most of Capers tenure as the Packers DC the defense live in base consisted of three guys weighing 330+ pounds. They decided to get more athletic on the DL before last season.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

As I've said before the offensive line was great protecting Rodgers while they have to improve in run blocking. Last season the Packers OL were the best in the league in pass protection while only being ranked 17th in run blocking according to PFF.

Not bad for a rookie center, and a 2nd year LT I think the teams first priority is to protect Rodgers. Mission accomplished. I hope they dont stop short though. We need some quality Tackle depth. Strange how we are 17th in run blocking, and I feel like our run game is dominant with Lacy. That must all be Lacy?
Bahktiari will get better every year. And I think our rankings will follow him.

 

[TJV]

I could hardly believe how well the OL protected Rodgers toward the end of last season, particularly after the injury. And the Packers rushed for 100 yards plus in the last 10 games of the season (Lacy obviously was a big part of that). No matter how one views the OL over the past several years, IMO Packers fans should be excited about how well it played last year, particularly the last half of the season. Bakhtiari showed significant improvement from year one to two, after having been ‘thrown into the fire’ as a 4th round rookie at the line's toughest position. He added weight and strength last offseason and it showed. He gave up more sacks and bad runs than the other O linemen according to McGinn but, again, he plays the toughest position on the line. And because of his dedication, I expect him to improve again this season. He turns 24 in September. I don't know if the Packers have the best OG tandem in the league but they’ve got to be in the top 2 or 3: They’re damn good. Bulaga really came into his own at RT. After the season McGinn wrote he, “began really punishing defenders from about midseason on.” Corey Linsley rewarded Thompson for breaking the mold on how he drafts OL. Instead of the "default" of drafting college OTs (usually LTs) to play every position on the line he struck gold by drafting a center to play center in the 5th round. Linsley paid dividends from the first game of the season on, in spite of having about a week to prepare to start the first game. He didn’t give up a sack in the regular season. According to McGinn, he “wasn't used to pull until midseason but finished with 16 on runs totaling 71 yards (4.4).” He too was damn good and he should only improve. Linsley also rewarded Thompson for not re-signing mediocre EDS.

If those aren’t enough positives, the Packers OL seems to be as close and cohesive as ever, even with the addition of newcomer Linsley. Grantland had a great story about their camaraderie: http://grantland.com/features/green-bay-packers-offensive-line-aaron-rodgers/ One last positive: All five starters are signed through the 2016 season.

I have complained about the Packers OL on and off for decades. It’s been a long time since I’ve been so excited about it and that excitement isn’t based on hope. It’s based on stats, facts, and observation.

BTW, McGinn has Rodgers responsible for 11 of the team's 33 sacks.
References to McGinn: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-2014-team-report-card-b99431310z1-289705181.html

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

For most of Capers tenure as the Packers DC the defense live in base consisted of three guys weighing 330+ pounds. They decided to get more athletic on the DL before last season.

Montgomery, Tollefson, Thompson, Wynn, Wilson, Neal, were all too small when we drafted them. Note the big draft picks were among the better picks...Then the trend changed to Bigger. Guy, Daniels, Worthy, Boyd, Thornton, brought back Jolly...... Then he reverted back and got Jones, which hasnt quite paid off against the run... If Thompson does draft D-line early. It should be a big boy... IMO

 

[HardRightEdge]

Then he reverted back and got Jones, which hasnt quite paid off against the run... If Thompson does draft D-line early. It should be a big boy... IMO

That's because Capers wanted more "length" at the position.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

That's because Capers wanted more "length" at the position.

I agree we needed a dominant Pass rusher for the D-line. I like Jones alot, and think his value will develop a little later. The mistake was not having a bruising veteran to wear down the O-line for him.
Cullen Jenkins , one of my favorites who I watched closely from his first pre-season. Lobbied for him to be a DE for a couple years before he got his chance. He was a under sized 5th string DT, barely holding a roster spot, until he developed his technique enough to legitimately be able to even try at DE... But I seen a poor mans Reggie White very early on. I thought Worthy Daniels picks were GREAT! Shocked at how Worthy flopped. The back mustve been bad? Anyways, (not here so i cant prove it) I said Daniels and his low center of gravity will be like a bowling ball. And he's quick enough to get off the blocks, and get to the ball carrier. Said he will probabally be better than Worthy, and took holy hell over it. I was a big Worthy advocate too. Just really liked what I seen from daniels clips after he was drafted by Ted.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Dominant pass rusher as in a pass rushing specialist. and as usual, i want him to be great. 1st round is where you find those. Jones will pay good dividends eventually IMO.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Dominant pass rusher as in a pass rushing specialist. and as usual, i want him to be great.

Eli, we want you to be great.

 

[Half Empty]

Only taking the total number of sacks allowed into consideration isn't the best way to rate the offensive line's play.

Hate to read long posts, so I hate to write them. However, the point I was trying to make was that you choose your position, you can find a reputable individual or service that'll back you up. If you don't like sacks as a barometer, what do you want to use? The post above yours refers to PFF, and I am certain that (a) nobody really knows how they evaluate every play by every player and (b) anybody that disagrees with their ranking will find a valid way to refute it. Folks need to state their basis for comparison and others can either join in or find another discussion. Same thing with 'who was the best (not your favorite) Green Bay QB', 'is TT the best GM', or anything along those lines. State the groundrules and make everyone stick to them.

 

[yooperpackfan]

Only taking the total number of sacks allowed into consideration isn't the best way to rate the offensive line's play.

When your (our) QB is getting sacked 30,40,50 times a year that tells me the O-line isn't very good. He is taking a beating.
Now I know the next arguement is, Rodgers hangs on to the ball too long, the O-line still hasn't been good either pass blocking OR run blocking over the majority of Rodgers career.

 

[Pack-12]

When your (our) QB is getting sacked 30,40,50 times a year that tells me the O-line isn't very good. He is taking a beating.
Now I know the next arguement is, Rodgers hangs on to the ball too long, the O-line still hasn't been good either pass blocking OR run blocking over the majority of Rodgers career.

It's not as simple as he hangs on to the ball too long. The main thing is he isn't afraid to take a sack specifically on 3rd down when throwing the ball away doesn't really do any good and losing a few yards doesn't really hurt. So he keeps the ball and tries to make something happen instead of giving up on the play. Also 30 or 40 sacks isn't really a beating, that's a pretty small amount of plays when you consider 600-700 drop backs. A beating is what happens on all of those other plays. Even if Rodgers is taking a lot of sacks I don't think he's really getting hit a lot as he throws or immediately afterward and he's not throwing under pressure a lot either. Especially last year he typically had a very clean pocket to throw from unless he kept the ball for 4 or 5 seconds. As far as sacks though, they are usually high because Rodgers would rather take the risk of a sack to make a big play happen, it's just his style and it works no matter how many people freak out about it.

Now there have certainly been times where the line or parts of it were pretty bad but those usually get remedied. Like the Allen Barbre debacle was just horrible but then we got Tauscher back and the line was solid the rest of that season but people only remember that it was terrible to start off and that's what sticks in their memories not that he had pretty good pass blocking the majority of the season afterwards.

 

[yooperpackfan]

It's not as simple as he hangs on to the ball too long. The main thing is he isn't afraid to take a sack specifically on 3rd down when throwing the ball away doesn't really do any good and losing a few yards doesn't really hurt. So he keeps the ball and tries to make something happen instead of giving up on the play. Also 30 or 40 sacks isn't really a beating, that's a pretty small amount of plays when you consider 600-700 drop backs. A beating is what happens on all of those other plays. Even if Rodgers is taking a lot of sacks I don't think he's really getting hit a lot as he throws or immediately afterward and he's not throwing under pressure a lot either. Especially last year he typically had a very clean pocket to throw from unless he kept the ball for 4 or 5 seconds. As far as sacks though, they are usually high because Rodgers would rather take the risk of a sack to make a big play happen, it's just his style and it works no matter how many people freak out about it.

Now there have certainly been times where the line or parts of it were pretty bad but those usually get remedied. Like the Allen Barbre debacle was just horrible but then we got Tauscher back and the line was solid the rest of that season but people only remember that it was terrible to start off and that's what sticks in their memories not that he had pretty good pass blocking the majority of the season afterwards.

LAST YEAR, LAST YEAR!
What about the other 9 years the OL sucked?
I already said last year was a good year for theOL!

 

[Carl]

LAST YEAR, LAST YEAR!
What about the other 9 years the OL sucked?
I already said last year was a good year for theOL!

When your (our) QB is getting sacked 30,40,50 times a year that tells me the O-line isn't very good. He is taking a beating.
Now I know the next arguement is, Rodgers hangs on to the ball too long, the O-line still hasn't been good either pass blocking OR run blocking over the majority of Rodgers career.

It is facts that Rodgers has been known to hang onto the ball too long and a pass heavy offesne will have more sacks than other offenses.

You've ignored evidence given to you (that isn't just sacks alone) that completely goes agaisnt your premise that the line was bad before last season.

Can you at least try to back it up or you just going to repeat it over and over until we agree?

 

[Pack-12]

LAST YEAR, LAST YEAR!
What about the other 9 years the OL sucked?
I already said last year was a good year for theOL!

I already pointed out how they've been up and down throughout the season before. There are different levels of quality between elite and suck. Just because they haven't been as good previously as they were last year does not automatically = sucked.

 

[Mondio]

I don't think our offensive line was good before last year, for a number of reasons. Up until about a third of the way thru the season last year, I was very critical of them, for a few years. I always felt injury and coaching was the biggest factor in recent years. They'd hold it together for a few games, then back to the same old, same old. They'd look good for a half, then look the complete opposite for another half. Did campen learn how to coach? did the right blend of players happen? staying relatively injury free beyond an early center loss? I don't know. But most of last year they were obviously more consistent and playing at a much higher level than in any time in recent history with this team and staff. that said, I think they can get better in the run blocking department, but when your bread is buttered by a passing QB, i'm glad they're playing better.

As for Rodgers taking sacks by holding the ball too much, on occasion. He also bailed out a poorly functioning Oline with his ability to slide and move around. It's not a one way street here. prior to last year, even considering the sacks Rodgers took because of holding the ball, I think he made that oline look better than they were on a weekly basis.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Not bad for a rookie center, and a 2nd year LT I think the teams first priority is to protect Rodgers. Mission accomplished. I hope they dont stop short though. We need some quality Tackle depth. Strange how we are 17th in run blocking, and I feel like our run game is dominant with Lacy. That must all be Lacy?
Bahktiari will get better every year. And I think our rankings will follow him.

The Packers finished in 11th in rushing last season. While that´s pretty good for a pass first team it´s hardly dominant.

Montgomery, Tollefson, Thompson, Wynn, Wilson, Neal, were all too small when we drafted them. Note the big draft picks were among the better picks...Then the trend changed to Bigger. Guy, Daniels, Worthy, Boyd, Thornton, brought back Jolly...... Then he reverted back and got Jones, which hasnt quite paid off against the run... If Thompson does draft D-line early. It should be a big boy... IMO

Once again, before last season the Packers mostly played two guys weighing 330+ pounds on the defensive line.

 

[PikeBadger]

We've mostly been able to run the ball when we want the last two years and the pass pro has been pretty tight as well considering Rodgers hangs onto the ball longer than almost every QB in the league. You can't put up offensive numbers like we have over the last 10 years with an offensive line that sucks.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

We've mostly been able to run the ball when we want the last two years. You can't put up offensive numbers like we have over the last 10 years with an offensive line that sucks.

The Packers rushing attack has been way better over the last two seasons than at any point during Rodgers' tenure as starter but I mostly attribute that to Lacy being a really good RB.

The main reason for the offense's success over the last 10 years is having two HOF QBs. The offensive line has mostly been average over that period.

 

[Sanguine camper]

TT has made progress drafting O lineman. 8 of his first 9 O linemen picks were busts. 5 of his last 9 picks have good to great. The record speaks for itself. Unfortunately, TT's record drafting D linemen doesn't show the same progress. Jolly and Daniels were good picks but one can make a good case that the rest of his D linemen picks were busts like Worthy or underachievers like Raji. For the 10th pick in the draft one good season from Raji in 2010 rates as underperforming. Given TT's track record I hope he trades out of the first round and tried to get another second round pick.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

TT has made progress drafting O lineman. 8 of his first 9 O linemen picks were busts. 5 of his last 9 picks have good to great. The record speaks for itself. Unfortunately, TT's record drafting D linemen doesn't show the same progress. Jolly and Daniels were good picks but one can make a good case that the rest of his D linemen picks were busts like Worthy or underachievers like Raji. For the 10th pick in the draft one good season from Raji in 2010 rates as underperforming. Given TT's track record I hope he trades out of the first round and tried to get another second round pick.

As someone pointed out correctly it isn't Thompson's fault that Raji has been mostly terrible since the Packers won the Super Bowl. In addition it's too early to rate Datone, Boyd and Thornton as busts.

 

[Carl]

The Packers rushing attack has been way better over the last two seasons than at any point during Rodgers' tenure as starter but I mostly attribute that to Lacy being a really good RB.

The main reason for the offense's success over the last 10 years is having two HOF QBs. The offensive line has mostly been average over that period.

When the offense is one of the best every year, having an average line is perfectly okay.