Ted Drafting in the Trenches

[GreenBaySlacker]

The Packers finished in 11th in rushing last season. While that´s pretty good for a pass first team it´s hardly dominant.



Once again, before last season the Packers mostly played two guys weighing 330+ pounds on the defensive line.

I heard you the first time. My point is that those two 330 pounders were the best D-linemen we had at the time. The other two Harrell, and Worthy hurt their backs and disapeared. Thompson pushed and pushed to fill that line with 280 pounders... None of them stuck. None could carry the load in the 3-4 IMO. After Jolly went away. I cringe when I speculate what would have happened if Raji had gone down from 2011 -2013... Pickett was another 1st round big boy, but was really slow those last few years.

And I still believe if we had more than 2 D-linemen worth a fece. We wouldnt have went to the 2 man front as often... I want to see what the percentage of 3 down linemen (not OLB/DE) we have this year. With Raji, Daniels, Guion, and Jones... Plus a great young rookie hopefully.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I heard you the first time. My point is that those two 330 pounders were the best D-linemen we had at the time. The other two Harrell, and Worthy hurt their backs and disapeared. Thompson pushed and pushed to fill that line with 280 pounders... None of them stuck. None could carry the load in the 3-4 IMO. After Jolly went away. I cringe when I speculate what would have happened if Raji had gone down from 2011 -2013... Pickett was another 1st round big boy, but was really slow those last few years.

And I still believe if we had more than 2 D-linemen worth a fece. We wouldnt have went to the 2 man front as often... I want to see what the percentage of 3 down linemen (not OLB/DE) we have this year. With Raji, Daniels, Guion, and Jones... Plus a great young rookie hopefully.

You´re making way too much out of a defensive lineman´s weight. Talented DL will make plays both against the run and rushing the passer no matter what. Take a look at my reply in another thread as to why the Packers only use two DL in nickel and dime packages.

BTW Pickett was a first round pick by the Rams in 2001. He signed with the Packers as an unrestricted free agent in 2006.

 

[PikeBadger]

. The offensive line has mostly been average over that period.

Average? Maybe. But plenty good enough to move the ball consistently against just about everyone. If the defense had been able to get more three and outs we'd have a 10 year average of over 30 ppg imo. Over the past 10 years, I'd have to guess that we are in the bottom 5 in defensive 3 and outs. That's where the field position switches to the favor of the offense.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Average? Maybe. But plenty good enough to move the ball consistently against just about everyone.

Once again, having Favre and Rodgers at QB is the main reason the offense has been great over the last 10 seasons.

If the defense had been able to get more three and outs we'd have a 10 year average of over 30 ppg imo. Over the past 10 years, I'd have to guess that we are in the bottom 5 in defensive 3 and outs. That's where the field position switches to the favor of the offense.

Since Capers took over as defensive coordinator the Packers have finished 17th, 4th, 29th, 10th, 23rd and 26th last season in forced three and outs percentage.

 

[tynimiller]

All I know is that in his 10 drafts Ted hasn't done very well on either side of the ball with regard to the trenches.
Starting with last year he has finally put together a reasonably decent offensive line.
On the defensive side of the ball Daniels and Jolly have been his best picks and there is alot of Question marks going into this year.

I'm sorry but how in the world can you say this? Take away the solid/great/All-Pro lineman he has drafted and this team is worthless...utterly worthless. Has there been some BIG misses...sure Montgomery and Harrell are the two that come to mind the most to me.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

You´re making way too much out of a defensive lineman´s weight. Talented DL will make plays both against the run and rushing the passer no matter what. Take a look at my reply in another thread as to why the Packers only use two DL in nickel and dime packages.

BTW Pickett was a first round pick by the Rams in 2001. He signed with the Packers as an unrestricted free agent in 2006.

I know Pickett came from the Rams... And the comment about making too much out of a D-linemans weight... Its true there will always be the guy that breaks the mold. But I heard it for half a decade that 280 is perfect, and they get more rush , and and and... BUT after half a decade of drafting these types of guys, and watching them become invisible on our D-line. I would have to disagree, and draft the percentages. That being bigger 300+ pound D-linemen. and IMO there should always be a physical freak like Raji, 340 pounds with a 33" verticle, and can bench press a small car. In the middle at nose, every play... every play... every play.....

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I know Pickett came from the Rams... And the comment about making too much out of a D-linemans weight... Its true there will always be the guy that breaks the mold. But I heard it for half a decade that 280 is perfect, and they get more rush , and and and... BUT after half a decade of drafting these types of guys, and watching them become invisible on our D-line. I would have to disagree, and draft the percentages. That being bigger 300+ pound D-linemen. and IMO there should always be a physical freak like Raji, 340 pounds with a 33" verticle, and can bench press a small car. In the middle at nose, every play... every play... every play.....

The Packers mostly drafted smaller prospects on the DL because they had enough big guys on the line and wanted to get more athletic in sub packages.

There's statistical evidence that a 3-4 defense doesn't need to have 330+ pounds NTs to be successful.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Im not saying we need one to be sucessful. I think our weird 3-4 hybrid was sucessful last year. But we needed a recipe of Peppers to come play much better than I ever expected. Dix to play as good as I had hoped. And McCarthy to break the mold and Move Mathews inside, and around to new looks. These moves made us very good. But IMO, had we had 3 dominant D-linemen wrecking the trenches. Peppers, Mathews, and our great secondary(with Williams and House still) would have cleaned up, and we would have been GREAT! and probabally world champions right now...

 

[TJV]

There's statistical evidence that a 3-4 defense doesn't need to have 330+ pounds NTs to be successful.

Right, but you'd have to be a self-proclaimed "mathematical wizzard" to understand that. ... Oh wait.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

But IMO, had we had 3 dominant D-linemen wrecking the trenches. Peppers, Mathews, and our great secondary(with Williams and House still) would have cleaned up, and we would have been GREAT! and probabally world champions right now...

Of course it would be awesome to have three great defensive linemen but it's not necessary to be successful. The New York Jets probably had the best defensive line out of all 3-4 teams last season and finished the season with four wins.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

And we might have the same 4 wins without Aaron Rodgers, McCarthy duo...

Curious how the crumby Buffalo Bills will be with their new 3-4...... Mario Williams moving to OLB. Im going to bet they still have 3 down linemen... And I also think they could make the playoffs without a QB or staedy coach... Based solely on Darius being the centerpiece, with two very good D-linemen on either side of him... Mario Williams is going to wreak Havoc on the NFL... I hope that group can stay healthy.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

And we might have the same 4 wins without Aaron Rodgers, McCarthy duo...

Exactly, that should make you realize that teams need a great QB not three impact defensive linemen.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Exactly, that should make you realize that teams need a great QB not three impact defensive linemen.

Im not saying that at all. But one could make the argument that we dont need 2x 10mil/yr WRs ANNND 2x 10mil/OLBs...

Dont get me wrong. I only say that because I would have spent all the cheese in my cheese drawer on the dominant D-linemen, and wouldnt have been able to sign peppers or Cobb... And that would've sucked! possibly...

I think the defense we have now is great. Diverse, and inteligent. We spent the money on great weapons!!! We have retained Raji, Guion, and have Daniels, Jones, Boyd to do what they did last year plus the help of our big strong nose.... We should only get better...

This year is a window of opportunity before Raji, Guion, and Daniels contracts are up... If we draft a big dominant D-lineman that can beat out Jones, and Guion... Giving us a powerful front to open up our dominant pass rushing LBs... The secondary will feast with that kind of pressure on the QB. Next year we will be back to filling in the holes on our D-line, rather than stacking them with enough talent to legitimately have 3 D-linemen in our 3-4...

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I'm sorry but how in the world can you say this? Take away the solid/great/All-Pro lineman he has drafted and this team is worthless...utterly worthless. Has there been some BIG misses...sure Montgomery and Harrell are the two that come to mind the most to me.

Ted has been fairly decent on the oline, very good at interior oline. Ted's real weakness has been the dline. Only player of real value that he's drafted on the dline is Daniels (who is very good). I mean, since Ted got here, the best Packer's dlinemen have probably been Daniels and Jenkins, then a BIG drop to Pickett and Raji. Ted only drafted two of those guys and only one is on the good list.

 

[Sky King]

Yeah, TT seems to have a much keener eye for O talent, in general. More than anything D players here already need to get better. When players such as Datone Jones and Nick Perry are sort of misfits for the existing defensive system (at the time they were drafted) it cannot help but lower the probability that they'll become successful quickly, if at all. While I cannot deny being disappointed with their level of play at this point, I'm not ready to throw-in the towel on either one of them just yet. Let's just call it guarded optimism on my part mixed with a little wishful thinking.

The same can be said of some others on the D that also need to develop. The only incumbent that greatly impressed me as being a wasted pick was Thornton. He looked terrible what little we saw of him. He's got nowhere to go but up and it looks like a daunting climb for him based on his abysmal showing last TC. If he ever becomes an All-Pro I'll buy the first quarter barrel and jumbo bag of pretzels at a future forum tailgate.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yeah, TT seems to have a much keener eye for O talent, in general. More than anything D players here already need to get better. When players such as Datone Jones and Nick Perry are sort of misfits for the existing defensive system (at the time they were drafted) it cannot help but lower the probability that they'll become successful quickly, if at all.

While Perry was a terrible pick for the Packers defensive scheme Datone was a prototypical 3-4 DE coming out of college.

 

[Sky King]

While Perry was a terrible pick for the Packers defensive scheme Datone was a prototypical 3-4 DE coming out of college.

That may be so, but he sure has not played up to it.

 

[Sky King]

As an aside on Jones, Vic Ketchman's (of packers.com) respected colleague, Tony Pauline, stated before he was drafted that Jones would need extra time to become fully comfortable with the Packers defensive style of play. He felt that Jones was not an immediate good fit to play at a high level. But, he also stated that Jones would succeed in this system eventually. Hopefully, this is the year that it happens. Like I stated in an earlier post, I'm guardedly optimistic that he will develop into the player that he was drafted to be.

 

[El Guapo]

I hope that Jones didn't read that and decide that he had some time to acclimate!

 

[Sunshinepacker]

That may be so, but he sure has not played up to it.

He's coming into his third season. Why do people always expect dlinement to be good in their rookie seasons? In his second season Jones was actually a pretty good pass rusher. Yeah, he wasn't great against the run but NFL defenses are built on great pass rushers, not dominant run stoppers. If Jones continues to develop and becomes a liability against the run but dominant against the pass, then the Jones pick will have been a resounding success.

I'm not saying Jones is on that level yet but go back and look at Calais Campbell's early years in the NFL. In his rookie season he wasn't very good. In Campbell's second season he blew up as a pass rusher but was worse than Jones against the run. Every Packers fan would be ECSTATIC if Jones could be 80% of Campbell. The only thing holding Jones back from that level right now is his snap count. He needs to stay healthy and stay on the field. If Jones could do that, and play just a little better than he did last season, he'd be one of the better 3-4 DEs in the entire league.

 

[Mondio]

I think Jones is coming around. Some of it is just hope on my part and some is that he has shown he can play at a pretty decent level. He'll get better, providing he continues to put in the work. I'm definitely not ready to write him off at all. Look at Cullen Jenkins, took him a few years of hardwork to turn into the player we all remember. Besides injury and a rough adjustment year one, I haven't seen anything out of Jones that would lead me to believe he won't continue to work hard.

 

[profile_removed]

When you get 33 shots at something, you should be right more often than not, which Ted hasn't been.

 

[Carl]

When you get 33 shots at something, you should be right more often than not, which Ted hasn't been.

The average success rate for draft picks is about one third. If any GM has been right more often than not in his career, I'd like to see it.

 

[profile_removed]

The average success rate for draft picks is about one third. If any GM has been right more often than not in his career, I'd like to see it.

You, me and any other poster on this forum could get more than 5 out of 33 right on the O and D Line. That's what this post is about, O and D Line, not overall

 

[Mondio]

Like I said earlier, when DE or DT is taking up a lot of the "worst ever" picks in the first round, something tells me its not asy easy as just picking the "best" guy.