Taking Advantage

[greengold]

Hey Do7, I like Cobb too. It is pretty simple in terms of metrics, and I think Gutes is all in on those. Cobb lit it up statistically his first 4 years w GB. Signed a big extension. His play has declined steadily ever since, as well as his availability. Both Cobb and Clay Matthews were two of our teams biggest cap hits. He didn't offer even a discussion with Clay either. Both great players who were steadily declining over last 3 years and Gutes puts a premium on players who take care of themselves and stay healthy.

It's not one little scare. There were ready signs of both players not being on the field due to this injury or that, or not bringing what they used to statistically, for the last 3 years or so. Cobb's Targets, YDs/game, YDs/target and Approximate Value have all dropped significantly since 2014. He missed 13 games since 2016. His numbers were simply going in the wrong direction.

Rodgers top cap hit, followed by Cobb at $12+M and Matthews at $11+M.... I see Gutekunst's rationale in walking away from both players. Those are the really tough decisions a good GM has to make to keep his team progressing forward.

 

[Do7]

and Jordy nelson retired at 34. Derek Carr isn't some hack at QB and we were set to pay him 10 million bucks. If you're paying 700yds a year receivers 10 million bucks a season, you're not going to e around long.

We weren't a very good team last year, we weren't winning a super bowl and we're much better off this year.

You are kidding right? Going from Rodgers to Carr? And playing on a team like The Packers to that of The Raiders? You saw James Jones have a ****** year when he was there, and look what happened when we brought him back? He should've been a pro bowler. Also need I remind you, that when Jordy had that 700 yard season that was the same year Rodgers went down with the collarbone injury, and prior to him going down Jordy was leading the league in TDs? And that we had Brett Hundley behind center who was garbage! Newsflash, every receiver outside Devante had deflated stats that year. The dude was garbage. Again, 1 little scare is all it takes, despite Jordy's model of consistency that's the sad part.

From my understanding we only offered him a million to play. That's chicken feed! If Jordy was offered 4 mil, I'm sure he would've accepted.

 

[PackAttack12]

You are kidding right? Going from Rodgers to Carr? And playing on a team like The Packers to that of The Raiders? You saw James Jones have a ****** year when he was there, and look what happened when we brought him back? He should've been a pro bowler. Also need I remind you, that when Jordy had that 700 yard season that was the same year Rodgers went down with the collarbone injury, and prior to him going down Jordy was leading the league in TDs? And that we had Brett Hundley behind center who was garbage! Newsflash, every receiver outside Devante had deflated stats that year. The dude was garbage. Again, 1 little scare is all it takes, despite Jordy's model of consistency that's the sad part.

From my understanding we only offered him a million to play. That's chicken feed! If Jordy was offered 4 mil, I'm sure he would've accepted.

James Jones wasn't on an NFL roster until Jordy went down in preseason of 2015. He was washed up and the fact that Rodgers was about to pull nearly 900 yards and 8 touchdowns out of him is a testament to how great he is. Not a testament to what Jones had left in the tank. What team did Jones play for after that season?

You cannot look at production numbers under Rodgers as justification that a player is still good and that's because Rodgers is one of the best of all time at making players look better than what they really are. Like Mondio pointed out, Carr is more than a respectable quarterback in the NFL. If Jordy was still good, he should've been more productive.

Your point about what happened when Rodgers went down in regards to the receivers actually contradicts your point. No one besides Davante was able to produce because everyone outside of Davante wasn't any good! Why was he able to produce and others weren't? It's because Rodgers made those guys better.

 

[Mondio]

You are kidding right? Going from Rodgers to Carr? And playing on a team like The Packers to that of The Raiders? You saw James Jones have a ****** year when he was there, and look what happened when we brought him back? He should've been a pro bowler. Also need I remind you, that when Jordy had that 700 yard season that was the same year Rodgers went down with the collarbone injury, and prior to him going down Jordy was leading the league in TDs? And that we had Brett Hundley behind center who was garbage! Newsflash, every receiver outside Devante had deflated stats that year. The dude was garbage. Again, 1 little scare is all it takes, despite Jordy's model of consistency that's the sad part.

From my understanding we only offered him a million to play. That's chicken feed! If Jordy was offered 4 mil, I'm sure he would've accepted.

Jordy retired 1 year after leaving here. 1. So we keep him, pay him 10 million and for what? We had a super bowl team last year? Jordy was near the end, it wasn't "one little scare". And James Jones had a pretty good year with a rookie Carr. You may want to revisit that.

 

[greengold]

Not being argumentative on this with you Do7, at all. But, the Packers GM saw things differently, and both Jordy and Cobb had MAJOR cap ramifications. Hell, I'd love to see Jordy come out of retirement and light em up again. Just saying I can see Gutekunst's rationale in dumping a handful of our top cap hits over the last two seasons, ones that were opposite of "ascending."

For instance, Cobb lit up CHI like a Christmas tree last season, game 1. In game 2 v. WAS, he was the exact opposite. Caught 4 of 11 targets for 20 something yds and a costly fumble... a lot of hot and cold stuff with Aaron throwing to both players near the end of their stays here. I did find the fact that Jordy is already retired is kind of telling. Damn! He was FUN! I miss the hell outta him.

Add to that, our Defense was calling out for help. Can't win a Championship without it. Gutekunst reallocated those resources into what we witnessed on D Thursday night, and I think the D will only get better if we can stay healthy. I can't argue that trade off. Good to see, and the offense will only get better as well. Our OL was one of the top OL units in the NFL last season, and we returned most of it in tact, with some added depth. Rodgers is a fierce competitor, and LaFleur will want to right that part of the ship. This will get better in time.

We might see some surprising contributions from our WRs v. MIN.

 

[swhitset]

So we ditch players based on past missed games and no assurance they’ll never be injured again? ...... Rodgers?

Sometimes... enough is enough. Rodgers is a bad example for many reasons, not the least of which was unlike Cobb, he was not a free agent.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Cobb was just WAY too expensive with his productivity and availability dipping his last 4 seasons. I like having the 2 Smith Bros. instead of just one.

Cobb was a declining player. Gutes likes ascending players. He’s made that clear with his sweeping roster changes. Let’s just wait and see if we realize the dividends Gutes is expecting paid as a result. I think we will.

Yeah as much as I liked Cobb, I just think letting him go was the only way he was going to hit the reset button. But this next year all first round picks must be WRs to replace Cobb.

 

[swhitset]

Always a tough decision with long time vets and fan favorites. You can go over the history of the Packers in just the last 10-12 years and look at each one of those decisions of "when to cut bait with a player", starting with Favre.

There is really no clear cut formula on when it is the right time and we can all use hindsight in saying it was the right or wrong thing to do. The Packers GM doesn't have that crystal ball at the time and has to weigh a number of things into the decision for each player.

One might say TT held on to players too long, but 2 posts later, say he made a mistake for getting rid of this guy.

Never a popular decision to purge a player who's jersey is hanging in many fans closets, but a necessary evil in Football. Sometimes you get them right, sometimes you don't. Nor will all the posters in here ever come to a true consensus on these decisions, unless maybe it's one regarding Nick Perry or Dom Capers.

Yeah... they definitely should have kept a Jeff Janis ... j/k

 

[greengold]

I'd like a mauler OT behind/to take the place of Bulaga #1.... Plus, let's just see what we have with our WRs first with the next 18 games...! I really think we are going to be just fine at WR. These guys are good, and it is a deep mix of talents 1-7. Why be impatient? Let's just let it play out and see what we've got.

If things go the wrong direction, I believe Gutekunst would address it before the trade deadline, October 29th at 4:00 ET. I highly doubt he will have to go there.

 

[Do7]

James Jones wasn't on an NFL roster until Jordy went down in preseason of 2015. He was washed up and the fact that Rodgers was about to pull nearly 900 yards and 8 touchdowns out of him is a testament to how great he is. Not a testament to what Jones had left in the tank. What team did Jones play for after that season?

You cannot look at production numbers under Rodgers as justification that a player is still good and that's because Rodgers is one of the best of all time at making players look better than what they really are. Like Mondio pointed out, Carr is more than a respectable quarterback in the NFL. If Jordy was still good, he should've been more productive.

Your point about what happened when Rodgers went down in regards to the receivers actually contradicts your point. No one besides Davante was able to produce because everyone outside of Davante wasn't any good! Why was he able to produce and others weren't? It's because Rodgers made those guys better.

I don't see how I contradicted myself. If anything you're making my point. You saw how well Jones did in Oakland and then how well he did when he returned to GB playing back under Rodgers, and look how well he was able to get out of Jones. Like I mentioned before Jordy was leading the league in TDs when The Packers went 4-1 and then his stats dipped under Hundley. You honestly think Jordy wouldn't have had 1000 yards had Rodgers played that entire year?

Carr is mediocre at best. There's a huge drop off from going to guy like Rodgers to someone like Carr and you know it. So all evidence is to the contrary on that argument. If Jordy had played with someone in a higher tier like a Matt Ryan, or Big Ben, and under performed then you would have a point.

Going back to Devante, that is a poor conclusion saying how everyone outside of Devante was good when Hundley was under center, especially when week after week you guys bashed Hundley for how much of a ****** job he did at QB. There's a reason why people were glad he was let go in favor for Kizer. We saw this play out with about all our backups when, or do I need to remind you how well the offense did with Tolzien under center?

Even at his age, Jordy and Rodgers had a better connection than most. And as I previously had stated, while Devante grew into the number 1 roll, Jordy easily could've been #2 because of his route running, knowledge, and most importantly the trust he has developed with Rodgers. And like you mentioned you saw what Rodgers did with a returning James Jones, you're telling me he couldn't do the same with Jordy who he has a great wavelength with? Again I'm certain we would've won more games than we did last year had he still been here. As I mentioned before Edelman is 33 and he's still doing well in New England with Tom Brady, because the two have a great wavelength. Something that outside of Devante, Rodgers clearly hasn't developed that trust yet.

We'll see how it goes as time progresses though.

 

[XPack]

But if keeping him around would have compromised the Packers ability to sign one less free agent than they did this past offseason, then we made the right call. You're seeing the immediate impact of Gute's 2019 free agent class.

It's reasonable to expect we could have managed Cobb's cap hit without affecting our FA signings.

But anyway, going in with Allison and Eq. at slot is unproven and not really a ideal proposition.

Gute manges players and FA very well, but he's not up to mark in transitions. Perhaps too soon to judge him, but the ruthless jettisoning of players don't really bode well for continuity.

 

[Do7]

and Jordy nelson retired at 34. Derek Carr isn't some hack at QB and we were set to pay him 10 million bucks. If you're paying 700yds a year receivers 10 million bucks a season, you're not going to e around long.

We weren't a very good team last year, we weren't winning a super bowl and we're much better off this year.

And like I said before, when you factor in the fact that we played with a backup QB who was straight up garbage, then the fact that Jordy was leading in TD's prior to Rodgers going down, and the fact that was his ONLY YEAR he finished under 1000 yards in years, I think there was a logical explanation for his dipped performance. He clearly didn't have a good connection with Hundley as none of the receivers did outside of Adams.

And like I said before maybe Jordy wasn't worth 10 million, but I certainly would've offered him more than just a million dollars to play. Hell Im willing to bet Jordy would've came back under a 4-5 million dollar contract. Plus we would've had someone to mentor the receivers. On top of that have someone that has Rodgers trust besides Adams. Bare in mind a lot of those games we lost was by one score differentials. Granted this would've meant we would have McCarthy with us still, but I'm of the mindset that we would've won a plethora of those games had Jordy been here. It certainly would've been better having him out there rather than having unproven receivers.

1 little scare. 1 year in which he's underperformed in spite of being a model of consistency is all it takes. With people like us, who needs enemies.

And for the love of God can we PLEASE stop making Carr into something he isn't. He's on the mid-low tiers of QBs. He's mediocre at best.

And for the record you're telling me Jordy couldn't have contributed on this team on a minimum vet agreement for say around 3-5 mil? If I recall we offered Jordy like roughly a million. Had he been offered a FAIR vet deal, I'm sure he would've stayed.

 

[mongoosev]

Wait...not trying to be funny but Cobb is gone? I haven't been following this year as you can tell by my half-witted dumb posts. No sh908, they traded Cobb? WOW! One of my favorite receivers besides Nelson is gone! Damn!
If you are reading this Cobb, This bud's for you!

Anyway...back to the thread, I agree with the creator of this thread that they better take advantage of this schedule!

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

ruthless jettisoning of players don't really bode well for continuity.

I think using "ruthless jettisoning" is a bit of hyperbole here. There has been quite a bit of turnover in the last 1 1/2 years since Gute took the reigns and seeing him purge players and coaches that didn't fit with what he was wanting to do was deemed necessary and not that unusual under the circumstances.

 

[Do7]

Not being argumentative on this with you Do7, at all. But, the Packers GM saw things differently, and both Jordy and Cobb had MAJOR cap ramifications. Hell, I'd love to see Jordy come out of retirement and light em up again. Just saying I can see Gutekunst's rationale in dumping a handful of our top cap hits over the last two seasons, ones that were opposite of "ascending."

For instance, Cobb lit up CHI like a Christmas tree last season, game 1. In game 2 v. WAS, he was the exact opposite. Caught 4 of 11 targets for 20 something yds and a costly fumble... a lot of hot and cold stuff with Aaron throwing to both players near the end of their stays here. I did find the fact that Jordy is already retired is kind of telling. Damn! He was FUN! I miss the hell outta him.

Add to that, our Defense was calling out for help. Can't win a Championship without it. Gutekunst reallocated those resources into what we witnessed on D Thursday night, and I think the D will only get better if we can stay healthy. I can't argue that trade off. Good to see, and the offense will only get better as well. Our OL was one of the top OL units in the NFL last season, and we returned most of it in tact, with some added depth. Rodgers is a fierce competitor, and LaFleur will want to right that part of the ship. This will get better in time.

We might see some surprising contributions from our WRs v. MIN.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it just baffles me how this is going over you guy's heads. What addition would we have not been able to pick up had we offered Jordy a small contract roughly about 3-5 million? Who would we have missed out on last year?

Our defense WASN'T that bad considering we only lost in double digits a handful of times. If anything our offense, (along with injuries) was the reason why we lost those games.

I hope I'm proven wrong this year as I have big hopes for some of these receivers but you guys were the same way with Rodgers last year after one lousy year, and some of us were ready to turn on him.

1 little scare. 1 little is all it takes and it's off with their heads. If say hypothetically Jordy returns and has over 1000 yards yet again, what will you guys be saying then?

Again I'm not trying to pick a fight, and yes I admit maybe I am a bit too emotional with this as Jordy was my favorite player on The Packers, as he embodimizes what a Packer should be, but I still think he had more fuel to the tank, and he left way too early. I mean Fitzgerald had a pretty lousy year, last year and yet Arizona decided to keep him. Why couldn't we have done that with Jordy for a 3-5 mil contract for one year?

With Cobb I think he might've been asking for a bit much, but I would've kept him for maybe 5-7 mil.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it just baffles me how this is going over you guy's heads. What addition would we have not been able to pick up had we offered Jordy a small contract roughly about 3-5 million? Who would we have missed out on last year?

Our defense WASN'T that bad considering we only lost in double digits a handful of times. If anything our offense, (along with injuries) was the reason why we lost those games.

I hope I'm proven wrong this year as I have big hopes for some of these receivers but you guys were the same way with Rodgers last year after one lousy year, and some of us were ready to turn on him.

1 little scare. 1 little is all it takes and it's off with their heads. If say hypothetically Jordy returns and has over 1000 yards yet again, what will you guys be saying then?

Again I'm not trying to pick a fight, and yes I admit maybe I am a bit too emotional with this as Jordy was my favorite player on The Packers, as he embodimizes what a Packer should be, but I still think he had more fuel to the tank, and he left way too early. I mean Fitzgerald had a pretty lousy year, last year and yet Arizona decided to keep him. Why couldn't we have done that with Jordy for a 3-5 mil contract for one year?

With Cobb I think he might've been asking for a bit much, but I would've kept him for maybe 5-7 mil.

This is coming from a guy who loves both Jordy and Randall. At some point you have to move on from these kinds of players, Clay Matthews included. The decision isn't easy, but you have to try and predict just how much gas that player has left in his tank for the next season (or two or three), how much that gas is going to cost you and will all that new gas you just bought go bad sitting on the shelves? Factoring into that decision is injury history, age and productivity. I think in the case of all 3 players, Gute felt it was time to fill the tank with fresh gas and not try to squeak out a few more miles and end up running out of gas before the next station.

*burp*

 

[Do7]

This is coming from a guy who loves both Jordy and Randall. At some point you have to move on from these kinds of players, Clay Matthews included. The decision isn't easy, but you have to try and predict just how much gas that player has left in his tank for the next season (or two or three), how much that gas is going to cost you and will all that new gas you just bought go bad sitting on the shelves? Factoring into that decision is injury history, age and productivity. I think in the case of all 3 players, Gute felt it was time to fill the tank with fresh gas and not try to squeak out a few more miles and end up running out of gas before the next station.

*burp*

That's fair. I just wish we kept one of them. Not Clay! I mean either Jordy or Cobb. I hate seeing them go.

I know we'll get through this somehow, but it still stings.

 

[greengold]

This is coming from a guy who loves both Jordy and Randall. At some point you have to move on from these kinds of players, Clay Matthews included. The decision isn't easy, but you have to try and predict just how much gas that player has left in his tank for the next season (or two or three), how much that gas is going to cost you and will all that new gas you just bought go bad sitting on the shelves? Factoring into that decision is injury history, age and productivity. I think in the case of all 3 players, Gute felt it was time to fill the tank with fresh gas and not try to squeak out a few more miles and end up running out of gas before the next station.

*burp*

That was pretty damn good.

 

[Mondio]

And like I said before, when you factor in the fact that we played with a backup QB who was straight up garbage, then the fact that Jordy was leading in TD's prior to Rodgers going down, and the fact that was his ONLY YEAR he finished under 1000 yards in years, I think there was a logical explanation for his dipped performance. He clearly didn't have a good connection with Hundley as none of the receivers did outside of Adams.

And like I said before maybe Jordy wasn't worth 10 million, but I certainly would've offered him more than just a million dollars to play. Hell Im willing to bet Jordy would've came back under a 4-5 million dollar contract. Plus we would've had someone to mentor the receivers. On top of that have someone that has Rodgers trust besides Adams. Bare in mind a lot of those games we lost was by one score differentials. Granted this would've meant we would have McCarthy with us still, but I'm of the mindset that we would've won a plethora of those games had Jordy been here. It certainly would've been better having him out there rather than having unproven receivers.

1 little scare. 1 year in which he's underperformed in spite of being a model of consistency is all it takes. With people like us, who needs enemies.

And for the love of God can we PLEASE stop making Carr into something he isn't. He's on the mid-low tiers of QBs. He's mediocre at best.

And for the record you're telling me Jordy couldn't have contributed on this team on a minimum vet agreement for say around 3-5 mil? If I recall we offered Jordy like roughly a million. Had he been offered a FAIR vet deal, I'm sure he would've stayed.

If Jordy needs Rodgers to be effective, he's not worth 10 million a year. why pay him 5 million for last year. Where were we going? Re-check Jones in Oakland. Very, very comparable season with a rookie you call barely mediocre compared to the seasoned vet in Rodgers. Jordy retired. He was not taking us anywhere last year and he wasn't going to be in the future as he retired a year later. He was near the end and they recognized it. It was not a mistake to let him go.

 

[swhitset]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it just baffles me how this is going over you guy's heads.

D07 I took you off of ignore, and this is how you start a post. Do you even realize how arrogant and or naive that sounds? Sometimes people aren’t going to agree with you no matter how well you believe you have presented your argument.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That's fair. I just wish we kept one of them. Not Clay! I mean either Jordy or Cobb. I hate seeing them go.

I know we'll get through this somehow, but it still stings.

Glad to see you have begun to drink the forum Kool-Aid. "bahahahahaha".

But in all seriousness, as a fan, it is tough to see a favorite player seemingly cast aside, I get it. However, at the end of the day, that player is probably still able to play elsewhere and in the case of many, still make a small fortune and eek out a few more years of a good football career on their own terms. So we are probably feeling more sorry for ourselves over the perceived loss, than the player themselves.

I predict if Clay Matthews has double digit sacks and a solid year for the Rams, coupled with any linebacker issues for the Packers and it won't be long before a few people are going to start screaming that Clay should have been resigned.

 

[Mondio]

Wait...not trying to be funny but Cobb is gone? I haven't been following this year as you can tell by my half-witted dumb posts. No sh908, they traded Cobb? WOW! One of my favorite receivers besides Nelson is gone! Damn!
If you are reading this Cobb, This bud's for you!

Anyway...back to the thread, I agree with the creator of this thread that they better take advantage of this schedule!

we have a new head coach too, his name is Matt.

 

[XPack]

I think using "ruthless jettisoning" is a bit of hyperbole here. There has been quite a bit of turnover in the last 1 1/2 years since Gute took the reigns and seeing him purge players and coaches that didn't fit with what he was wanting to do was deemed necessary and not that unusual under the circumstances.

There is no hyperbole. I'm just calling it as it is. They are deemed unnecessary, so have been let go irrespective of history with us and with no overtures even to negotiate for reduced/minimum contracts. "You are not wanted here anymore, so off you go" is probably the very definition of ruthless jettisoning and there can be no clearer example than the way Mike McCarthy was fired.

I'm not saying these players deserved their place in the team due to their performances, but rather due to necessity of not jumping blindly into a new season with all unproven cast.

 

[El Guapo]

I think that it was pretty well agreed to world-wide that the Packers have not even had an average WR group the past few years (Adams being the outlier). Part of it is on Rodgers, but speed and other issues had us searching for new blood. Jordy quit on the Packers in 2017 after Rodgers went down. I loved the guy but was happy we parted ways. Cobb had become a lot less effective for his cost. Again, loved the guy but happy to move on so that we can reload with better weapons.

 

[greengold]

That's fair. I just wish we kept one of them. Not Clay! I mean either Jordy or Cobb. I hate seeing them go.

I know we'll get through this somehow, but it still stings.

Take the pain, man! We all did on some level. Done & over with anyways.

I still think the talent acquisitions Gutes has added to this team are significant. I’m impressed by his hitting on players late. MVS & ESB. Kumerow, Shep & Laz in UDFA. There is a lot left to play out.

You think Rodgers wanted Kumerow “Inactive?” These are things that will get worked out along the way with Rodgers/LaFleur.

My beliefs are that we’ll see all of these guys make solid contributions throughout.