"Realistic" WR Discussions...

[Dantés]

Rodgers has clearly been surpassed by guys like Mahomes and Wilson, but I still see him make some wow throws in his current state. The bigger problem to me is not the arm but that he seems perpetually out of sync with his offense (in some games-- obviously he was in a nice groove against Philly).

This is why I've wanted to give the offense a month or so before I drew any conclusions. It's settling in and Rodgers and Petals seem to be looking for their sweet spot between their different philosophies.

 

[Wi. Mike now in Florida]

Ok, here's my take.
We paid Rodgers X millions before his two year contract was up,
and now he has nobody to throw to that he trust.

Sometimes fishy here people

 

[Poppa San]

You did not account for the fact that a trade this moment would cost 13/17 of that $8.9 mil. MIN already paid him 4 game checks. Diggs would also be owned 12/16 of his $500,000 per game roster bonuses.

You did not include $600,000 per year starting in 2020 for workout and per game roster bonuses.

That said, Diggs is not going anywhere unless MIN is elimitated from the playoffs by week 8, which is not going to happen.

I was doing a "he's in this price range" level of data, not a dime-by-dime breakdown.

Anywho we ain't getting him in a trade.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Anywho we ain't getting him in a trade.

Of course not. Nobody is.

 

[HardRightEdge]

He passes up probable receptions because he can no longer trust his arm.

Again, I'd be inclined to say "sometimes" but more often it is (1) the receivers not running the route as expected and (2) being conditioned over the years to value limiting turnovers with sub-standard defenses backing him up. In general, I would say the Rodgers approach has become one where the QB Rating under-penalizes turnovers and overvalues completion percentage. There might be something to that.

I notice it when I watch younger QBs. In Wilson vrs Goff it was a bit of a trip down memory lane as I saw them making passes AR used to make.

I would not put Goff and Rodgers in the same sentence.

Once a player is on a pedestal, especially a QB, fans will stick with him long after they should.

That's your response to throwing for 400 yards with no running threat?

 

[AmishMafia]

I would not put Goff and Rodgers in the same sentence.

And yet you just did.

That's your response to throwing for 400 yards with no running threat?

Are we talking stats or performance? Maybe the old AR would have thrown for 500. I'm not sure what to tell you. I thought AR 7 yrs ago was the most impressive I had seen. Lightning quick release as the WR was going into his break. DB had no chance as a perfect pass on a rope hits the WR in stride. I just don't see that anymore.

And don't be down on Goff. The guy made 2 really incredible throws that I saw. Goff currently leads the NFL in passing yardage I although has played 5 games.

 

[Calvin]

Honestly, on all levels GB don't need a # 2. I do remember Ryan Grant 1st year when GB had zero running game before he comes on, they basically gave up on the run and just started the 5 wide in the NFL. I really think the offense currently should go to shorter routes, let the WRs get YAC, Rodgers is super accurate. Obviously, save the downfield stuff once they build a trust. Will this happen, nope but if implemented, I think it would work. My point, you have to work with what you have, do that and many times players progress. I wouldnt stay this on D but on offense with a great QB, no excuses.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Are we talking stats or performance? Maybe the old AR would have thrown for 500. I'm not sure what to tell you. I thought AR 7 yrs ago was the most impressive I had seen. Lightning quick release as the WR was going into his break. DB had no chance as a perfect pass on a rope hits the WR in stride. I just don't see that anymore.

Never? Not as often? A lttle less often? Watch closer.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Peyton Manning led a Super Bowl winning team with a dead arm.

While Peyton was the Broncos starting quarterback in 2015 he didn't lead them to winning the Super Bowl.

My thinking is that as ARs arm softens, he can't sling em as well as he once did. He still abhors throwing picks. Therefore he doesn't throw it in tighter coverage as he once did. He passes up probable receptions because he can no longer trust his arm.

Rodgers threw the ball into tight coverage to end the game vs. the Eagles. I would have felt better about if he didn't though.

And don't be down on Goff. The guy made 2 really incredible throws that I saw. Goff currently leads the NFL in passing yardage I although has played 5 games.

Goff ranks only 17th in yards per attempt though.

I really think the offense currently should go to shorter routes, let the WRs get YAC, Rodgers is super accurate.

Actually Rodgers has struggled throwing short passes for most of his career.

 

[HardRightEdge]

While Peyton was the Broncos starting quarterback in 2015 he didn't lead them to winning the Super Bowl.

Regardless of how good that defense was, Manning was the leader of that team. I don't know how you could say otherwise. The point is not that Rodgers has a dead arm, which he does not. It's that winning, or even completing passes, doesn't require the fastest gun in the West.

There's also something to be said for taking something off the ball. The young Favre was breaking fingers in practice. Packer receivers this season have recorded only 2 drops.

Actually Rodgers has struggled throwing short passes for most of his career.

This is true, off and on, for some stretches of games. It's the touch passes: screens, bubble screens, or having to put some loft on a check down when there is no throwing lane. Not so much the 6 yard out. It's the ones where he's taking something off the ball. Earlier this season we saw him throw a couple of bubble screens at MVS's feet. It comes and goes, sometimes not evident for an entire season, but it has always been there.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Rodgers has clearly been surpassed by guys like Mahomes and Wilson, but I still see him make some wow throws in his current state. The bigger problem to me is not the arm but that he seems perpetually out of sync with his offense (in some games-- obviously he was in a nice groove against Philly).

This is why I've wanted to give the offense a month or so before I drew any conclusions. It's settling in and Rodgers and Petals seem to be looking for their sweet spot between their different philosophies.

And yet we have calls to trade for a receiver. Graham has been here two years in two different route schemes (sort of) and I still don't see him running good routes. I've come to the surprising conclusion that Graham is not the smartest knife in the NFL drawer, in retrospect a guy who made his dough on pure athleticism when he had it. MVS and Allison just passed 100 career targets, Graham a little over 100 in Green Bay. It's like we've got a bunch of second year receivers, one actually in his second year, in a new offense.

These are factors.

 

[Dantés]

And yet we have calls to trade for a receiver. Graham has been here two years in two different route schemes (sort of) and I still don't see him running good routes. I've come to the surprising conclusion that Graham is not the smartest knife in the NFL drawer, in retrospect a guy who made his dough on pure athleticism when he had it. MVS and Allison just passed 100 career targets, Graham a little over 100 in Green Bay. It's like we've got a bunch of second year receivers, one actually in his second year, in a new offense.

These are factors.

Yep. Bigger factors than a perceived Rodgers decline.

I personally think three bad decisions happened this off-season. One bad in hindsight and two bad, at least for me, in foresight.

1) How they decided to handle the slot position. They thought Allison would offer more than he has, based on what he had shown in limited work previously. Plus they had two guys that can play in the slot behind him in Moore and St. Brown. Allison, to this point, is not as good in this offense, Moore washed out with drops, and St. Brown got hurt. This is all hindsight analysis. I'm not so much criticizing the process as I am highlighting the negative outcome. Though I and most others thought the Packers would target a receiver in this most recent draft, specifically one with some YAC ability, which is arguably now the biggest hole on the offense.

2) Keeping Graham. It's not just that he isn't the player he once was, which he isn't. It's that he was never the right player for the coach that the Packers hired. Gutekunst wouldn't swallow the move and now he's sending good money after bad.

3) Not pursuing an heir apparent to Bulaga. Bulaga is great but he's fragile and he's a pending UFA. The Packers are now starting Alex Light, who was a disaster in limited snaps against the Eagles.

 

[greengold]

My first 3 draft picks, as hopeful a mock as I could produce was: 1. Cody Ford 2. Hakeem Butler 3. Darnell Savage.... Now, granted, this was WAY before the draft, around the time of the combine, thinking about where we could realistically see some players.

The #1 player I wanted GB to take was Savage. When Gutes traded up for him I completely freaked out. Regardless, I think stuff like this is somewhat telling of a fan, and where they stand on some of these kinds of issues. Another mock I had put together: Devin Bush, Darnell Savage, Dalton Risner... Yet another I put together had Christian Wilkins changed out for Bush... These were the needs I had been wanting addressed, for years on our Packers team. I'd love to hear any of yours... just thinking about it, that kind of clues you into another fan's perspective.

I felt our OL was in DIRE need of additions, plural. Loved the Elgton Jenkins selection, and I feel he will go down as a complete steal. Wish we could have added the road grader/concrete wall Ford, though I have yet to check in to see how he has been faring. Butler, to me, was a prize that I felt Rodgers would LOVE to throw to. Tall slot WR too. If I'm not mistaken, Butler went to ARI and is out injured? IR?

Regardless, Savage shot up draft boards, and I could not be happier we nabbed him. Transformative player for our defense who will only get better and better. That leaves us with perceived holes at WR and OT. I still believe Yosh may develop into a true stud OT, but question how far along he is in providing depth for this season. To me, I would not waste a minute getting him signed onto the roster, I believe in him that much. Others may not agree, but, that's my position on him.

Again, let's wait two more weeks. I firmly think my own wishes at WR may not have been such a dire need, as I now believe very much in MVS, Geronimo and the new additions of Shepherd and Lazard. Kumerow's falling off the radar has been troubling, but, maybe he comes along here and gets dialed in nicely against DAL.

As for Graham, yeah, I was not a fan of his signing, and he's pushing my own boundaries as a fan. However, he does have 2 TDs, his numbers from a career standpoint are currently on the low side projecting current production through 16 games, but, this is through 4 weeks with the offense still struggling to find its way to top gear. I think as the season progresses, Graham's production could increase significantly. If not, then we will know this was a costly two year miscue. I do not like the lack of hustle I've witnessed to start this season, and I'm hoping that gets turned around, guardedly so.

Oddly enough, Gutes seems to like building in two year outs with most of his FA signings. Seems a reasonable ploy, see what you get, and if it doesn't work, move along. Two years is not too bad, but, I would prefer solid hits when it comes to providing Rodgers weapons to get the job of winning a SB accomplished, like any of us. Maybe Graham still pays those dividends.

You know he will be adding WR next season, for sure. In the meantime, we are not even cooking yet... we might be surprised with what we have at WR this year.

 

[PackinMSP]

I think it's time to see what Jake Kumerow is REALLY about... it's his chance for opportunity RIGHT NOW

I seriously don't believe that Allison will be back next year (or should be back) and MVS will have another year to mature.

ESB, we all have high hopes for, but obviously he's out for the year.

So this week will really just be an opportunity for Kumerow to step up

 

[pacmaniac]

Rodgers may have declined a bit. But that only means he is no longer playing like the greatest QB in history. He can still play like a top 5 QB.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Regardless of how good that defense was, Manning was the leader of that team. I don't know how you could say otherwise.

Peyton might have been a leader on the 2015 Broncos but his performance wasn't the reason they won the Super Bowl.

1) How they decided to handle the slot position. They thought Allison would offer more than he has, based on what he had shown in limited work previously. Plus they had two guys that can play in the slot behind him in Moore and St. Brown. Allison, to this point, is not as good in this offense, Moore washed out with drops, and St. Brown got hurt. This is all hindsight analysis.

Actually there were posters including me mentioning that Allison is a terrible fit to line up in the slot, yet others were fooled by reports out of OTAs. Therefore I don't consider criticizing the Packers not making a move for a slot receiver as hindsight analysis.

I think as the season progresses, Graham's production could increase significantly. If not, then we will know this was a costly two year miscue.

Maybe Graham still pays those dividends.

You know he will be adding WR next season, for sure. In the meantime, we are not even cooking yet... we might be surprised with what we have at WR this year.

It will be interesting to see *** Graham and the receivers perform at Dallas today. It might tell us a lot about what to expect moving forward.

 

[Pugger]

I would qualify that by saying "sometimes" on the zip and accuracy. On some throws he looks just as he always has. Without charting every throw it would be hard to say which kinds of throws are which. I suspect, and it is only a suspicion, that the plate in his shoulder, or maybe that cracked knee, affects certain throwing positions.

And yet, he threw for 400 yards with no running game and a bunch of receivers everybody seems to want to replace.

Peyton Manning led a Super Bowl winning team with a dead arm.

Manning also had an historically good defense. The only reason the Bears are winning is that scary defense they have. Until we figure out how to stop the run consistently we still need an elite QB like Rodgers under center.

 

[Dantés]

Actually there were posters including me mentioning that Allison is a terrible fit to line up in the slot, yet others were fooled by reports out of OTAs. Therefore I don't consider criticizing the Packers not making a move for a slot receiver as hindsight analysis.

It will be interesting to see *** Graham and the receivers perform at Dallas today. It might tell us a lot about what to expect moving forward.

This is why I said right at the beginning of that post that these thoughts are hindsight or foresight for me in particular.

 

[HardRightEdge]

And don't be down on Goff. The guy made 2 really incredible throws that I saw. Goff currently leads the NFL in passing yardage I although has played 5 games.

He also leads the league in INTs.

 

[gbgary]

He also leads the league in INTs.

so did favre many years. his willingness to go for it cost him but it also rewarded him. rodgers used to go for it but does it a lot less the last few years. his arm is still strong enough but it's crossed the line, when combined with not having his feet set, that it's not getting the job done most plays. his ego is getting in the way too imo. he thinks running MLF's O makes him a "game manager" and has said as much. so they're trying to run a mish-mash of the old and new offenses with very limited success. with the lack of talent on the O side of the ball it would be to his advantage to run the system as designed, toss out the "trust" bs (throw to anyone in other words), and take what the D gives him. get the ball out quick instead of holding the ball (he's leading in the league in throwaways again).

 

[HardRightEdge]

so did favre many years. his willingness to go for it cost him but it also rewarded him. rodgers used to go for it but does it a lot less the last few years. his arm is still strong enough but it's crossed the line, when combined with not having his feet set, that it's not getting the job done most plays. his ego is getting in the way too imo. he thinks running MLF's O makes him a "game manager" and has said as much. so they're trying to run a mish-mash of the old and new offenses with very limited success. with the lack of talent on the O side of the ball it would be to his advantage to run the system as designed, toss out the "trust" bs (throw to anyone in other words), and take what the D gives him. get the ball out quick instead of holding the ball (he leading in the league in throwaways again).

I don't subscribe to the theory that Favre's risk/reward when in gunslinger mode was favorable. I also do not subscribe to the theory that Rodgers has lost velocity as a general proposition, more a matter specific platforms.

 

[gbgary]

I don't subscribe to the theory that Favre's risk/reward when in gunslinger mode was favorable. I also do not subscribe to the theory that Rodgers has lost velocity as a general proposition, more a matter specific platforms.

i don't either as a whole. favre was always in gunslinger mode...as rodgers is always in superman mode. a little less of both would have benefited each immensely.

 

[PackAttack12]

so did favre many years. his willingness to go for it cost him but it also rewarded him. rodgers used to go for it but does it a lot less the last few years. his arm is still strong enough but it's crossed the line, when combined with not having his feet set, that it's not getting the job done most plays. his ego is getting in the way too imo. he thinks running MLF's O makes him a "game manager" and has said as much. so they're trying to run a mish-mash of the old and new offenses with very limited success. with the lack of talent on the O side of the ball it would be to his advantage to run the system as designed, toss out the "trust" bs (throw to anyone in other words), and take what the D gives him. get the ball out quick instead of holding the ball (he's leading in the league in throwaways again).

Favre would have won more playoff games if he wouldn’t have thrown so many damn interceptions. You can commend him for being a gunslinger and make the case it helped him, but far too often in the playoffs it bit him in the ***, and cost his team chances to win more playoff games.

 

[HardRightEdge]

i don't either as a whole. favre was always in gunslinger mode...as rodgers is always in superman mode. a little less of both would have benefited each immensely.

There's lots of "always" that always goes around. Lots of black and white, all or nothing. It is almost never the case, and certainly not in this one.

 

[tynimiller]

Diggs is not worth that kinda jack... sorry. Thx Pops

I've got a whacky realistic WR signing that I can seriously see happening... Chad Ocho Cinco. Granted, this is a bit out of the box-ish, but I do think adding him as a #2 WR somewhere down the line is not out of the realm of possibility, unless I'm wrong about another team having a lien on his rights or something.

Seems he's gone out of his way to show his support for what the Packers are doing, and I would not doubt his ability to be effective again if given the opportunity.

I'm curious what you guys might think about this one....? Just tossin' it out for kicks. It would cost us virtually nothing, if I'm not mistaken.

Do you think that dude would want a ring? I sure do.

Heard he is in ridiculous shape...does he really still wanna play?