Ranking Thompson's Drafts

[El Guapo]

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sp...06/ranking-thompsons-packers-drafts/82713114/

I generally don't have a problem with the way that Dougherty ranked the drafts. However, when you get down to the worst drafts I don't like how he discounts some players. Johnny Jolly for example is discounted because of his drug conviction and lost years. That shouldn't reflect on whether TT had a good draft. He drafted a very good player. The same goes with his discount of Desmond Bishop. The guy was a good, ferocious linebacker who sustained a terrible hamstring injury. To me this is different than a Justin Harrel type, who was drafted with a significant injury history.

Alas I'm nitpicking. It's the off season.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sp...06/ranking-thompsons-packers-drafts/82713114/

I generally don't have a problem with the way that Dougherty ranked the drafts. However, when you get down to the worst drafts I don't like how he discounts some players. Johnny Jolly for example is discounted because of his drug conviction and lost years. That shouldn't reflect on whether TT had a good draft. He drafted a very good player. The same goes with his discount of Desmond Bishop. The guy was a good, ferocious linebacker who sustained a terrible hamstring injury. To me this is different than a Justin Harrel type, who was drafted with a significant injury history.

Alas I'm nitpicking. It's the off season.

I don't think Dougherty is blaming Thompson for careers of players like Jolly or Bishop being cut short for various reasons but just doesn't include any predictions on what might have been if it had worked out differently for them.

 

[HardRightEdge]

As Demovsky said, he "places a premium on quality over quantity".

I think he overshot on the 2012 draft based on Daniels. Heyward? Yeah, he was OK. Perry? We're still waiting in year 5. Nobody else lasted past 2 years. I'd rank this draft lower.

 

[El Guapo]

It's also a little confusing because he lists Sam Shields at the top of the 2010 draft class, yet acknowledges that Shields was an UDFA. Why not include other UFDAs if you're going to essentially evaluate all of the rookies brought into camp each year?

Like I said, still a generally solid analysis but there are a few issues.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Why not include other UFDAs if you're going to essentially evaluate all of the rookies brought into camp each year?

Probably because there are none worth mentioning. Tramon Williams didn't come to the team until the end of November his rookie year in 2006. Even if you stretch the definition to include Williams, this Thompson/UDFA stuff is an anachronism.

At the end of the 2010 season, you could point to Shields and Williams (with the stretch) acquired over 4 1/2 years and say he might have a knack. Over the last 5 years? No magic touch.

 

[adambr2]

Yeah, UDFA's are not really part of a 'draft class', IMO.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Yeah, UDFA's are not really part of a 'draft class', IMO.

Oh, I'd count them. The only one worth mentioning in nearly a decade is Shields.

 

[adambr2]

Probably because there are none worth mentioning. Tramon Williams didn't come to the team until the end of November his rookie year in 2006. Even if you stretch the definition to include Williams, this Thompson/UDFA stuff is an anachronism.

At the end of the 2010 season, you could point to Shields and Williams (with the stretch) acquired over 4 years and say he might have a knack. Over the last 5 years? No magic touch.

I'd look at Thompson's entire 10 years and say there's no real 'knack' on his point for an eye on UDFA talent.

I'd venture to guess without looking it up that most GMs over a 10 year period are going to make at least one find of a Sam Shields type among UDFA.

The rest who have managed to crack a roster (Zombo, Moses, So'Oto, Mulumba, MD Jennings, etc. etc.) are just roster fodder at best. Maybe Zombo was a little more than that. But for the most part, it's just Shields.

 

[El Guapo]

Tim Masthay was similar to Tramon as he tried out for the Colts as a UDFA in 2009 before trying out with GB in 2010. Other notable UDFAs that I would mention if all rookies are considered in a class:

Evan Dietrich-Smith
Mike Pennel
Sean Richardson
Brett Goode
Frank Zombo
Don Barclay
Lane Taylor
Chris Banjo
Jayrone Elliott
Joe Thomas

 

[Poppa San]

Tim Masthay was similar to Tramon as he tried out for the Colts as a UDFA in 2009 before trying out with GB in 2010. Other notable UDFAs that I would mention if all rookies are considered in a class:

Evan Dietrich-Smith
Mike Pennel
Sean Richardson
Brett Goode
Frank Zombo
Don Barclay
Lane Taylor
Chris Banjo
Jayrone Elliott
Joe Thomas
Excluded special teams only players (even if they got some position snaps.) Zombo and EDS got picked up by other teams so there must be something above camp fodder there. Pennel played his way into rotation and probably a 2nd contract if he straightens up. Barclay and Richardson probably were derailed by injuries. Thomas and Elliot are seat warmers ATM.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Evan Dietrich-Smith
Mike Pennel
Sean Richardson
Brett Goode
Frank Zombo
Don Barclay
Lane Taylor
Chris Banjo
Jayrone Elliott
Joe Thomas
Excluded special teams only players (even if they got some position snaps.) Zombo and EDS got picked up by other teams so there must be something above camp fodder there. Pennel played his way into rotation and probably a 2nd contract if he straightens up. Barclay and Richardson probably were derailed by injuries. Thomas and Elliot are seat warmers ATM.

Zombo was a rotational player, splitting time with Walden in 2010. He's a ST player in Kansas City. I don't think he's worth mentioning in this context.

I suppose EDS had some value as a 1 year starter, but he looked better than he was in comparing his play to Jeff Saturday before him, a guy who should have been retired. I take Tretter over EDS, and he did not get a mention either. Last season was EDS's second in Tampa and it looks like he lost his job to Joe Hawley.

I like Pennel better than most (all?) commentators in these pages. But he's in a prove-it year, with respect to staying clean and what he'll do with more snaps over the back half of the season.

Barclay? A backup who was serviceable as an injury replacement. Richardson? A rotational box safety. These are not the kinds of guys who make or break a draft class.

 

[adambr2]

And although EDS had success, he didn't make the team as a UDFA, he got cut and ended up in Seattle and came back a year later after getting cut by them. Although he ended up having success here I don't look at a guy like that as the same thing as someone like Shields who came up exclusively in our system as a UDFA.

 

[Packerlifer]

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sp...pson-dominates-nfl-drafts-2nd-round/82933358/

 

[tynimiller]

Evan Dietrich-Smith
Mike Pennel
Sean Richardson
Brett Goode
Frank Zombo
Don Barclay
Lane Taylor
Chris Banjo
Jayrone Elliott
Joe Thomas
Excluded special teams only players (even if they got some position snaps.) Zombo and EDS got picked up by other teams so there must be something above camp fodder there. Pennel played his way into rotation and probably a 2nd contract if he straightens up. Barclay and Richardson probably were derailed by injuries. Thomas and Elliot are seat warmers ATM.

If you think expecting more from UDFA than a roster spot is reasonable I think you need to check your head. If you bring in a UDFA and they grab a roster spot let a lone a practice squad position they've already exceeded expectations of EVERY team in the league. Let alone if they play solid STs...or serve as a back up....or see a rotational gameday playing time.....or even see a 2nd contract.

Reality is UDFA are camp fillers and practice bodies....with the HOPE they grow into more, and when they do they have by proportion in many ways exceeded expectations far more than even a 1st rounder starting.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

If you think expecting more from UDFA than a roster spot is reasonable I think you need to check your head. If you bring in a UDFA and they grab a roster spot let a lone a practice squad position they've already exceeded expectations of EVERY team in the league. Let alone if they play solid STs...or serve as a back up....or see a rotational gameday playing time.....or even see a 2nd contract.

Reality is UDFA are camp fillers and practice bodies....with the HOPE they grow into more, and when they do they have by proportion in many ways exceeded expectations far more than even a 1st rounder starting.

It´s true that expecting to get any impact players in undrafted free agency is unrealistic. The point being that Thompson is widely considered one of the most successful one in UDFA when in reality Sam Shields is the only one he ever signed.

 

[tynimiller]

It´s true that expecting to get any impact players in undrafted free agency is unrealistic. The point being that Thompson is widely considered one of the most successful one in UDFA when in reality Sam Shields is the only one he ever signed.

Wait...in TT's time here we've signed only 1 UDFA?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Wait...in TT's time here we've signed only 1 UDFA?

What I meant is that Shields is the only impact player Thompson has ever signed in UDFA.

 

[tynimiller]

What I meant is that Shields is the only impact player Thompson has ever signed in UDFA.

I guess we define impact differently than.

To me if a UDFA sees rotational playing time their an impact to me, although not great or good even at times guys like Zombo, EDS, Taylor, Richardson, Pennel and even Banjo definitely to me a bonafide successes grabbed in UDFA.

I agree though the only guy the rose to cream of the crop and bonafide starter is Shields. Taylor in a few years could be another one...Pennel I think has the "potential" but ways off from seeing.

 

[Mondio]

I thought for sure this was going to be the year Pennel really became a solid and consistent contributor on that line. Then he gets himself suspended for the first 4 games. so, I guess I'll go into wait and see mode again.

But overall, I agree, UDFA's, 7th rounders 6th even. If they are rotational players and play ST well, i think that's a good pick. They aren't all Donald Drivers.

Overall, I take the position of, I don't care where they come from or what round. i'd like a 1st rounder to turn into a pro bowler in a couple years, but I don't care if they start immediately or not. Start them when they're ready or other variables dictate they see the field. I think any time you get a solid starter in rounds 1-2 in year 1 or 2, that's a good pick. 3-5, depending on position, take a season or so to get into real rotation and by year 2-3, depending again on position and things, if they're regularly contributing solid play, it's a good pick.

The difference makers come along every few drafts. I think it's unrealistic to get one every year.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

To me if a UDFA sees rotational playing time their an impact to me, although not great or good even at times guys like Zombo, EDS, Taylor, Richardson, Pennel and even Banjo definitely to me a bonafide successes grabbed in UDFA.

I agree that even getting a decent special teamer out of an undrafted free agent is a success but when talking about true impact players Thompson hasn´t done a better job than most other general managers.

 

[El Guapo]

I agree that even getting a decent special teamer out of an undrafted free agent is a success but when talking about true impact players Thompson hasn´t done a better job than most other general managers.

Well Captain, you can't try to paint black on a milk jug any more than you have... Face it, TT has done a good job finding UDFAs to round out the roster. Expecting them to be stars like Shields is unrealistic. Ron Wolf routinely scoured free agency for plug players such as Bruce Wilkerson, who are not stars but fill critical roles when needed - and usually only for a season or two. TT finds those guys in the undrafted free agency, like EDS, Zombo, etc. So to lambaste the current GM because these guys don't all rise to the level of Shields is missing the point. A GM must find players to fill voids and the method is not important.

Of course we would like every guy that walks through the door to be a star. TT has consistently found enough to keep the team a playoff contender every year. To me, it's the job of the players and coaches to go from there to a championship.

 

[tynimiller]

I agree that even getting a decent special teamer out of an undrafted free agent is a success but when talking about true impact players Thompson hasn´t done a better job than most other general managers.

If there is a way please list GMs that have found more True starting impact players like Shields in the same time frame. I bet there are some but I don't many when talking UDFA

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Well Captain, you can't try to paint black on a milk jug any more than you have... Face it, TT has done a good job finding UDFAs to round out the roster. Expecting them to be stars like Shields is unrealistic. Ron Wolf routinely scoured free agency for plug players such as Bruce Wilkerson, who are not stars but fill critical roles when needed - and usually only for a season or two. TT finds those guys in the undrafted free agency, like EDS, Zombo, etc. So to lambaste the current GM because these guys don't all rise to the level of Shields is missing the point. A GM must find players to fill voids and the method is not important.

Of course we would like every guy that walks through the door to be a star. TT has consistently found enough to keep the team a playoff contender every year. To me, it's the job of the players and coaches to go from there to a championship.

I´m fully aware of the fact that it´s extremely difficult to find players in undrafted free agency contributing in the NFL. I just wanted to point out that the perception that Thompson has been more successful than most other general managers simply isn´t true.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

If there is a way please list GMs that have found more True starting impact players like Shields in the same time frame. I bet there are some but I don't many when talking UDFA

That will take me some time but maybe I will able to do it over the weekend. But I´m absolutely convinced most general managers having worked in the position for several season have at least found one undrafted free agent on par with Shields talent level.

 

[tynimiller]

My gut tells me there are maybe 4 or 5 others in the same time window that would be undoubtedly better...Seattle being one of them....but time frame would be key.