Preseason game 1: Houston vs. GB

[mradtke66]

I'm no expert, but I would guess that most real adjustments happen between drives. Other than that, I would think down and distance are bigger factors in the defensive setup.

Absolutely. But I'm not talking about "adjustments," as in changing a hot-call or (if this was offense) drawing up a slight route combination in the dirt. I mean quick, on-off "Hrm. I think zone would work better on first down based on what I'm seeing..." Or that maybe he needs to start matching up Alexandar with the no. 1. That's an extra verb (or however that's called in their system) and the drive continues. Not an adjustment, but a correction based on real-time information.

Surely if an assistant in the booth noticed something important it would be communicated quickly. You also hear tales of players on the field noticing key weaknesses or issues.

One potential problem is determining "what's important? Or worse, "what do you look for?"

I work in IT. I currently have a guy working with me with about 10 years less experience. He's sharp and does good work. When things are going tricky, sometimes he can communicate what he needs from me and I can point him in the right direction. Other times, a problem that's been bugging him for 30 minutes plus I can sort out just by looking at his screen more or less instantly. And it has everything to do with experience and lizard-brain-pattern-matching. I suspect coordinators in the booth have similar thoughts.

What nuances might be lost been The Guy and The Eyes?

Other than that...

What is the cost of putting a position coach up in the booth? Those who advocate keeping the DC on the sideline seem to cite communication or motivation reasons. Wouldn't the position coach be more important to routine, sideline reasons?

Second Aside, Twice Removed, from My Mother's Side....

From my perspective, many fans just feel sufficiently burned by Capers that anything he did, MUST be bad. "Capers was in the booth and Capers BAD. Never again should we have a DC in the booth." But I think that's bordering on the absurd...but also wouldn't be entirely surprised if there was a thread that went, "You know, Capers was human and we all know how that worked out. I think our next defensive coordinator should be non-human..."

 

[Mondio]

I have zero problems with a coordinator in the booth. I can see many benefits, especially if he's the brains behind the outfit and the position coaches provide the fire. though I'd also argue, motivation must come from within or it doesn't matter how much of a firey coach you put on the sideline.

 

[rmontro]

Those who advocate keeping the DC on the sideline seem to cite communication or motivation reasons. Wouldn't the position coach be more important to routine, sideline reasons?

Well, I don't make the decisions. Someone, probably LeFleur, or Pettine himself, decided he would be on the sideline this year. There must be some reason for that, and there must be some advantage to it.

 

[mradtke66]

Well, I don't make the decisions. Someone, probably LeFleur, or Pettine himself, decided he would be on the sideline this year. There must be some reason for that, and there must be some advantage to it.

I'm more asking a rhetorical question rather than expecting a particular answer.

As far as Pettine being on the sidelines...shrug?

Maybe it something they do in the pre-season only. I though that's what happened last year, but I could be mistaken. Sidelines for pre-season, booth for regular.

Also possible that MLF is going to lean on Pettine and the benefit is to him. Which wouldn't surprise me, as a first-year head coach, to want someone who's been there before to help.

Also possible Pettine does just like the sidelines better.

Also possible this is a year-to-year decision. More new guys on the roster, wants to help set the tone, and maybe he'll be back in booth next year. Or never again.

Or maybe the loss of Daniels and Matthews has created a small leadership void.

The possibilities are potentially endless.

 

[rmontro]

Maybe it something they do in the pre-season only. I though that's what happened last year, but I could be mistaken. Sidelines for pre-season, booth for regular.

I hadn't considered that, maybe Pettine will be in the booth for the regular season. I don't know why they would do it differently. Anyway, I just liked to see him on the sidelines, even if there is no logical reason for it. Didn't seem to help the tackling any.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I think what frustrates me the most about the Packer backup QB situation is watching a guy like Joe Webb, a 3rd stringer, look more polished than any of our 3 backups. Sure Webb wasn't facing any of the Packer starters, but I doubt any of the Packer QB's were either. Webb is also not the first backup QB that has looked much better than what the Packers are trotting out there.

Webb would cost the Texans a bit over $1M to carry and will most likely be stuck behind Watson and McCarron. Again, I don't know a ton about Webb, nor have I watched him play much other than when he started for the Vikings in a playoff game against the Packers 6 years ago and last night, but my knee jerk reaction is, I would rather have him backing up #12 than Kizer or Boyle.

I'm not satisfied with the Packers backup quarterback situation either but Webb wouldn't be an upgrade with a career passer rating of only 63.1.

I absolutely HATED the Gary selection and voiced that opinion after the draft but I'm not sure what anyone can complain about with how he looked. I thought he actually looked great. Got off the ball like a bullet and showed he can get pressure early.

As I've mentioned in another thread, it's definitely ridiculous to evaluate his performance after only a single preseason game but it was kind of disappointing that he didn't get anywhere near Webb after hearing about him dominating practice at will.

Have you watched any practices? Shepard's gone quickly from being undrafted and having to try out for the team, to running with the 1's. Shepard is very much a slot receiver, much like Cobb. We don't have any other short, quick receivers. He's our only receiver who's well suited for the slot. And he has very good hands. He's very definitely going to make the 53.

Shepherd made some plays vs. the Texans but it's way too early to consider him a lock to make the roster.

I think Davis, Kumerow, Lazard and Shepherd will be battling for the 5th and 6th spot, with Davis being in the lead due to his ST play.

Kumerow is a lock to make the roster.

I got no ******* use for players getting drafted 13th overall and not playing like it

In that case you will be glad to hear that Christian Wilkins isn't on the Packers roster

I will say something positive tho and that is we desperately needed to press the turnover ratio and there’s a noticeable focus there. DBs are more determined to strip the ball or turn back to go after a jump ball scenario like “they” are the receiver. That’s a huge factor in the success of a team IMO, as its negates many Defensive interference calls. TO ratio is also one obvious component of successful teams.

The Packers definitely need their defense to create more turnovers this season. It was a good start against mostly backups.

overall, I can see the empasis on the run game from LaFleur. If our run game doesnt work, what other plan do we have? Curious to see how and what LaFleur does in response to it.

The Packers have Rodgers to rely on if the running game doesn't work. It would be great to take some pressure off #12 though.

 

[GleefulGary]

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1161268902183260160?s=09

Reminder, Gary didn't get anywhere near Webb.

I mean, c'mon, how is he supposed to get to the QB any faster than what he did here? Answer that Wimm.

 

[sschind]

24 Missed Tackles by the Packers. However the good news, the OL didn't allow a sack or hit on a QB, I hope the starting OL can keep #12 that clean!

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/08/10/matt-lafleur-says-packers-missed-24-tackles-vs-texans/

Don't get your hopes up. As soon as Rodgers starts taking 12 seconds to throw the ball the sacks will pile up.

I also prefer seeing the DC on the field.

At the very least it makes it harder for the TV crew to get shots of him sleeping

I have zero problems with a coordinator in the booth. I can see many benefits, especially if he's the brains behind the outfit and the position coaches provide the fire. though I'd also argue, motivation must come from within or it doesn't matter how much of a firey coach you put on the sideline.

I prefer to have the coordinator where HE thinks he can be the most effective and I'll let that up to him. I'm sure if Pettine thought he could be more effective in the booth that's where he would be. I just hope he is the one who made the decision to move and not that he thinks he can be better in the booth but MLF wants him on the sidelines.

On the other hand if the guy is a good DC I don't think it really matters where he is.

 

[El Guapo]

Compared to last year (albeit against against a great Bears defense), I think that Kizer did generally well. I'm not expecting Aaron Rodgers precision but he showed me that he is progressing. There were some nice touch passes (Tonyan), some tight throws (Kumerow), and some shiftiness and throws on the move (Sheppard TD). On the Sheppard TD drive in the 2nd quarter he went 4 of 6 for 60 yards. He certainly wasn't amazing but I think the guy deserves some credit. I definitely want to see more.

Boyle continues to be solid, and possibly our backup to AR.

Would I prefer a veteran backup, sure, but I'm not totally worried either.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1161268902183260160?s=09

Reminder, Gary didn't get anywhere near Webb.

I mean, c'mon, how is he supposed to get to the QB any faster than what he did here? Answer that Wimm.

I could have gotten close to the quarterback if the left tackle tried to block me like that.

 

[mradtke66]

On the other hand if the guy is a good DC I don't think it really matters where he is.

A simple reason why we might see more DCs in the booth going forward has been staring us in the face the whole time and I even alluded to it, but it clicked this morning during my commute...

Pre-Spygate, you sent your defensive play calls in with hand signals. Now of course, any coach could send in the signals (and you likely had a couple different guys, optionally having one guy send in dummy signals) but I'm going to guess that DCs would prefer to send them in themselves.

Ergo, if you were a defensive playcaller, you had to be on the sideline.

Post-Spygate (specifically, 2008 season onward), you've got a defensive player with a radio in his helmet. Now the defensive playcaller has the option to be in the booth if he wants to.

So there we go. Preferences of booth vs. sideline aside, analysis of "good coordinators being on the booth vs. sidelines" limits our potential sample size to 10 seasons.

 

[GleefulGary]

I could have gotten close to the quarterback if the left tackle tried to block me like that.

You would've gotten your *** knocked to the ground if the LT tried to block you like that.

Anyways, you declined to mention that there was at least one example of Gary getting close to the QB, and you declined to point out exactly what he could have done differently on that play to get there sooner. In the end, my point is the same, your initial supposition was wrong, and that's undeniable.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You would've gotten your *** knocked to the ground if the LT tried to block you like that.

Geez, the lineman didn't even try to block Gary. Surprisingly Webb completed the pass to the side he was rushing from. Definitely not his fault but the play was designed that way.

I'm not even talking about him losing contain on several plays allowing Webb to rush for first downs.

Anyways, you declined to mention that there was at least one example of Gary getting close to the QB, and you declined to point out exactly what he could have done differently on that play to get there sooner. In the end, my point is the same, your initial supposition was wrong, and that's undeniable.

Awesome, so Gary had one pass rush against a rookie tackle on which he came close to the QB without having an impact on the outcome of the play.

BTW as I've mentioned repeatedly there's no way to fairly evaluate Gary after only one preseason game, I just expected him to have a bigger impact after hearing about him dominating practice.

BTW how's Kumerow doing??? I remember you telling all of us that he has no chance of making the roster.

 

[GleefulGary]

I was wrong on Kumerow. He's been better than I expected, and Moore has been worse than I expected. I ain't gonna be right every time, lol.

And maybe it's a good thing you just rely on PFF, bc you don't know what you're watching.

 

[OldSchool101]

I could have gotten close to the quarterback if the left tackle tried to block me like that.

There’s those imaginary things in life you’d pay to see. This is one of those things I’d absolutely buy a ticket to watch! I’d get a brat n extra Kraut and 20oz beer and just sit back and enjoy

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

A simple reason why we might see more DCs in the booth going forward has been staring us in the face the whole time and I even alluded to it, but it clicked this morning during my commute...

Pre-Spygate, you sent your defensive play calls in with hand signals. Now of course, any coach could send in the signals (and you likely had a couple different guys, optionally having one guy send in dummy signals) but I'm going to guess that DCs would prefer to send them in themselves.

Ergo, if you were a defensive playcaller, you had to be on the sideline.

Post-Spygate (specifically, 2008 season onward), you've got a defensive player with a radio in his helmet. Now the defensive playcaller has the option to be in the booth if he wants to.

So there we go. Preferences of booth vs. sideline aside, analysis of "good coordinators being on the booth vs. sidelines" limits our potential sample size to 10 seasons.

Right, but remember, just because the DC isn't in the booth, doesn't mean he doesn't have assistants in the booth, who a DC on the sidelines can talk with. I think there are advantages to having a DC or an OC on the sidelines or in the booth, but when it comes to being in tune with and motivating his players, I will choose the sidelines any day.

 

[mradtke66]

Right, but remember, just because the DC isn't in the booth, doesn't mean he doesn't have assistants in the booth, who a DC on the sidelines can talk with.

Players can and do talk with assistants in the booth. It's what the red bat-phone behind the bench is for. You typically only see the QB doing it, probably because the camera follows him the most.

I think there are advantages to having a DC or an OC on the sidelines or in the booth, but when it comes to being in tune with and motivating his players, I will choose the sidelines any day.

But why do you think that? Could just be "that's the way it's always been," and you're just used to it?

This is not me picking on you, just picking on us as a species. We humans do love patterns. And habits. And superstitions. And donuts.

My most recent post was simply making an observation. Specifically, until 2008, the defensive playcaller had to be on the sidelines, because the playcall was sent in with hand signals. In a post-2008 world, the defensive playcaller at least has the option to do so from the booth now. It's now much more feasable.

Professional football can be conservative and slow moving. Plenty of older coordinators in the game would are loathe to adapt to new tech, even if it is demonstratively superior. Not to invoke him, but wasn't Capers notorious for primarily using paper and ignoring his computer as much as possible?

What I suspect will happen is eventually, having a coordinator in the booth (or not) will become uninteresting. There will be enough of each preference that there won't be any stats to demonstrates one way is better than the other and we'll all stop debating it.

Or at least as much as we stop debating the virtues of the Wing-T.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Players can and do talk with assistants in the booth. It's what the red bat-phone behind the bench is for. You typically only see the QB doing it, probably because the camera follows him the most.



But why do you think that? Could just be "that's the way it's always been," and you're just used to it?

This is not me picking on you, just picking on us as a species. We humans do love patterns. And habits. And superstitions. And donuts.

My most recent post was simply making an observation. Specifically, until 2008, the defensive playcaller had to be on the sidelines, because the playcall was sent in with hand signals. In a post-2008 world, the defensive playcaller at least has the option to do so from the booth now. It's now much more feasable.

Professional football can be conservative and slow moving. Plenty of older coordinators in the game would are loathe to adapt to new tech, even if it is demonstratively superior. Not to invoke him, but wasn't Capers notorious for primarily using paper and ignoring his computer as much as possible?

What I suspect will happen is eventually, having a coordinator in the booth (or not) will become uninteresting. There will be enough of each preference that there won't be any stats to demonstrates one way is better than the other and we'll all stop debating it.

Or at least as much as we stop debating the virtues of the Wing-T.

I speak only from a fans perspective, I prefer seeing a coordinator and even position coaches on the sidelines, in the trenches so to speak. The direct, physical connection between coaches and players, just like they have at practices. Seems like more connection and motivation to me.

As far as what works for a specific coordinator or team, that is up to them to figure out. Dom Capers seemed more like a cerebral kind of coach, so I kind of understood him being in the booth. Pettine tried a year in the booth and now it sounds like he is going to try the sidelines. With his personality, I like the switch. Imagine Lombardi coaching from the booth.

I posted an article a few days ago about OC's and whether they are "more successful" coaching from upstairs or the sidelines, it was a mix bag of success and failure either way. Here's to hoping Pettine has a great season DC'ing from the sidelines!

 

[HardRightEdge]

Pre-Spygate, you sent your defensive play calls in with hand signals. Now of course, any coach could send in the signals (and you likely had a couple different guys, optionally having one guy send in dummy signals) but I'm going to guess that DCs would prefer to send them in themselves.

Since 2008, one defender, typically an ILB, has a live speaker in his helmet like the QB. There is no need for hand signals anymore and a coach would be foolish to do so. Maybe in college they still use hand signals and placards. I watch very little college football.

It was never illegal to steal sideline signals or tape coaches signals from designated locations. The Patriots were busted for taping from their sidelines, deemed illegal. It would not be illegal today to tape a sideline coach from designated areas. It is not illegal to hire a lip reader to pick off sideline calls which is why you see play callers hold the play card in front of their mouth.

 

[mradtke66]

Since 2008, one defender, typically an ILB, has a live speaker in his helmet like the QB. There is no need for hand signals anymore and a coach would be foolish to do so. Maybe in college they still use hand signals and placards. I watch very little college football.

It was never illegal to steal sideline signals or tape coaches signals from designated locations. The Patriots were busted for taping from their sidelines, deemed illegal. It would not be illegal today to tape a sideline coach from designated areas. It is not illegal to hire a lip reader to pick off sideline calls which is why you see play callers hold the play card in front of their mouth.

Agreed.

I was just trying to point out because of Spygate, the defense got a radio just like the offense. Thus giving the defensive playcaller more freedom on where to call the plays from.

 

[mradtke66]

IWith his personality, I like the switch. Imagine Lombardi coaching from the booth.

Partially, it's hard to project, because the game is so different. With Vince being forward thinking (he was large proponent of filming practice), it sort of wouldn't surprise me if he might try it.

That said...

So for a head coach, I'd be suspicious about coaching from the booth (assuming health didn't require it--I know Alverz did it for a game or two due to knee surgery. He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named from Penn state did something similar) because part of his job is to play traffic cop.

A player caller might benefit from some insulation.

It's hard, because on one hand, football is emotional. On the other, doing the right thing requires being not. A sideline is a chaotic place. Too easy to fall mob mentality or caught up in the fever. A head coach would likely make fewer clock mistakes because he could see it better from the booth. Ditto making better replay decisions.

But, for better or worse, a head coach needs to chew out refs. I wish it wasn't that way, but all evidence seems to point it being necessary.

I think one of the best, zippy one liners was something about, "If the sideline was a great place to observe the game, the headcoach wouldn't need a headset."

 

[TomBrownFan40]

Coaches stay home and text.

 

[rmontro]

Partially, it's hard to project, because the game is so different. With Vince being forward thinking (he was large proponent of filming practice), it sort of wouldn't surprise me if he might try it.

Starr called the plays for the most part, so I don't know why Lombardi would want to be in the booth. Other than getting out of the cold for games like the Ice Bowl.

 

[swhitset]

Right, but remember, just because the DC isn't in the booth, doesn't mean he doesn't have assistants in the booth, who a DC on the sidelines can talk with. I think there are advantages to having a DC or an OC on the sidelines or in the booth, but when it comes to being in tune with and motivating his players, I will choose the sidelines any day.

What’s funny is that I am not intellectually convinced that this makes a difference, and yet my gut tells me I would like to see him on the sideline.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

And maybe it's a good thing you just rely on PFF, bc you don't know what you're watching.

Fortunately I have experts like you explaining the game