Pennel a secret weapon?

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

I've got you by about 10 years and I have to agree. But I tend to forget things......

Do you old guys need to take a nap ?? (Sorry !)

 

[Luca]

That's what is so crazy about this is were hoping a rookie UDFA from Colorado State-Pueblo can come in and save the day at nose after four years of trying to build a D-line through the draft. Unbelievable.

Sad, but true! However the injury of BJ Raji is a huge disappointment. Raji isn't a great player by any means, but the difference between a average and a poor NT (Guion) is huge. The thing is that our D-line depth was poor to begin with, and therefore Ted deserves the blame. For the run-d to improve, we really need someone to step up.

By the way, I am still stunned that we did not sign Pickett after the Raji injury. I know that Pickett lost a step and is probably just a below average NT. However he would still be an improvement over the guys we have now.

 

[JBlood]

We could look into signing a DL off of a PS to give Pennel some help: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000386375/article/practice-squad-tracker

There are a surprising number of DL's on the practice squad, including a couple of big boys at 330+. There are a few guys that are 6'5", one is even 6'7", and they could add some length at DE if we felt we needed it. DeAndre Coleman is 315 lbs so he's not the size of a true NT, but I've always like him. We could at least take a look at some of these guys.

I agree. Somebody on this forum posted some stats that would indicate there's no association of size with effectiveness on the defensive line. This is counter-intuitive, but does bring up the possibility that our "small" guys simply are no good. Or not being coached to be good. I'd still like to have a monster like Vince Wilfork in the middle. Pats have him listed at 325lbs. He probably weighed that in 8th grade.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

I agree. Somebody on this forum posted some stats that would indicate there's no association of size with effectiveness on the defensive line. This is counter-intuitive, but does bring up the possibility that our "small" guys simply are no good. Or not being coached to be good. I'd still like to have a monster like Vince Wilfork in the middle. Pats have him listed at 325lbs. He probably weighed that in 8th grade.

Its interesting you mention "small" guys. Having watched a few games this week, our line looked tiny compared to some of the other teams. JMO of course

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree the Packers should bring in Pennel to start vs. the Vikings. While he had two really bad plays vs. the Bears as well he seems to be a better option than Guion.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

I agree the Packers should bring in Pennel to start vs. the Vikings. While he had two really bad plays vs. the Bears as well he seems to be a better option than Guion.

But Guion might just raise his game to prove something to the Vikings ?

 

[PikeBadger]

We could look into signing a DL off of a PS to give Pennel some help: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000386375/article/practice-squad-tracker

There are a surprising number of DL's on the practice squad, including a couple of big boys at 330+. There are a few guys that are 6'5", one is even 6'7", and they could add some length at DE if we felt we needed it. DeAndre Coleman is 315 lbs so he's not the size of a true NT, but I've always like him. We could at least take a look at some of these guys.

This link was last updated a month ago. There has been a huge amount of churning and turnover since then. I suspect Thompson is either trying to work a trade or waiting patiently for a specific guy or two to get released. We've had an empty roster slot for two weeks now.

 

[JBlood]

But Guion might just raise his game to prove something to the Vikings ?

That's what I'm afraid of--he'll prove them right in cutting him.

 

[JBlood]

But I admire your optimism, BB.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

And I admire your politeness JB

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree. Somebody on this forum posted some stats that would indicate there's no association of size with effectiveness on the defensive line. This is counter-intuitive, but does bring up the possibility that our "small" guys simply are no good. Or not being coached to be good. I'd still like to have a monster like Vince Wilfork in the middle. Pats have him listed at 325lbs. He probably weighed that in 8th grade.

Its interesting you mention "small" guys. Having watched a few games this week, our line looked tiny compared to some of the other teams. JMO of course

Just take a look at the Niners defensive line. Their starters have an average of 293.3 pounds yet they only have allowed 69.8 rushing yards per game. It´s about talent, weight isn´t important.

 

[Luca]

I agree. Somebody on this forum posted some stats that would indicate there's no association of size with effectiveness on the defensive line. This is counter-intuitive, but does bring up the possibility that our "small" guys simply are no good. Or not being coached to be good. I'd still like to have a monster like Vince Wilfork in the middle. Pats have him listed at 325lbs. He probably weighed that in 8th grade.

I think that we might explain with simple economic theory. The marginal big guy should be as effective as the marginal small guy. Each team will sign/draft the best available player. When there is a big guy with great skills and a small guy with great skills they will probably sign the big guy. But when the have to pick between a small guy with great skills and a big guy with average skills the choice is more difficult.

Keep in mind that there are more small guys than big guys. For example if there are 100 big guys and 1000 small guys playing d-line. Lets say that 32 big guys and 32 make the league and are equally effective. So small guys are as effective as big guys. However big guys have better odds to make the league in the first place. So size does still matter.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

Just take a look at the Niners defensive line. Their starters have an average of 293.3 pounds yet they only have allowed 69.8 rushing yards per game. It´s about talent, weight isn´t important.

We`re screwed on all levels then....lol

 

[JBlood]

I think that we might explain with simple economic theory. The marginal big guy should be as effective as the marginal small guy. Each team will sign/draft the best available player. When there is a big guy with great skills and a small guy with great skills they will probably sign the big guy. But when the have to pick between a small guy with great skills and a big guy with average skills the choice is more difficult.

Keep in mind that there are more small guys than big guys. For example if there are 100 big guys and 1000 small guys playing d-line. Lets say that 32 big guys and 32 make the league and are equally effective. So small guys are as effective as big guys. However big guys have better odds to make the league in the first place. So size does still matter.

Maybe the true answer is that the difference between 340 lbs and 315 lbs isn't that great. Does 8% difference in weight really matter? Capt. Wimm's point about the 9ers suggests it doesn't.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

We`re screwed on all levels then....lol

Sad but true. The run defense was my main concern going into this season. Losing Raji for the season was huge but the depth at DL (I´m talking about run stoppers here) and ILB was questionable at best going into the season. But Thompson hasn´t done anything to improve the team there while it was pretty obvious to a lot of us we need some upgrade.

 

[Luca]

Maybe the true answer is that the difference between 340 lbs and 315 lbs isn't that great. Does 8% difference in weight really matter? Capt. Wimm's point about the 9ers suggests it doesn't.

I believe that weight matters, however it is just one aspect. Skill matters as well. There are more guys who could carry 315 lbs and still run than guys that could carry 340 lbs and still run. Therefore it will be easier to find a skilled 315 lbs guy.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don't think I saw what you are referring to about size, but I'd be extremely skeptical of that idea. A guy has to have good weight, though. I don't think it helps to take a 300 lbs guy and fatten him up to 330 lbs, but if you take a 315 lb guy and have him gain 15 lbs of muscle then I think that will help a lot.

Here´s what I posted in another thread about last year´s 3-4 defenses weight at the line and their ranking in run defense:

Here are the numbers (ranked by average weight on the DL as well as information about average weight at DE and 2013 run defense rank):

Baltimore 331.3 327.0 11
Green Bay 326.8 322.3 25
NY Jets 319.7 304.5 3
New Orleans 319.0 305.5 19
Cleveland 318.0 313.8 18
Buffalo 314.8 309.3 28
Washington 312.2 314.5 17
San Diego 310.0 300.0 12
Kansas City 308.8 296.3 22
Indianapolis 308.6 305.8 26
Philadelphia 300.8 296.0 10
Pittsburgh 298.3 291.0 21
Arizona 296.0 290.0 1
Houston 293.5 288.0 23
San Francisco 291.0 289.5 4

Taking a look at the Cardinals and 49ers defenses they had great ILBs last season, which seems to be an important factor considering the run defense when getting lighter on the DL.

 

[Luca]

Sad but true. The run defense was my main concern going into this season. Losing Raji for the season was huge but the depth at DL (I´m talking about run stoppers here) and ILB was questionable at best going into the season. But Thompson hasn´t done anything to improve the team there while it was pretty obvious to a lot of us we need some upgrade.

Thompson tried to fix the D-line. He reached for Khyri Thornton, who is also on IR now.

Looking back, trading up in the third might have been a wise decision. The three picks before us where spend on Sutton, Nix (also on IR now) and Martin. I especially liked Martin, although he is a DE and not NT.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

We could look into signing a DL off of a PS to give Pennel some help: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000386375/article/practice-squad-tracker

There are a surprising number of DL's on the practice squad, including a couple of big boys at 330+. There are a few guys that are 6'5", one is even 6'7", and they could add some length at DE if we felt we needed it. DeAndre Coleman is 315 lbs so he's not the size of a true NT, but I've always like him. We could at least take a look at some of these guys.

Yeah, I know, but most of those guys will still be available. I just look them up on there and then double check the team's roster to make sure they are still on the PS. It works pretty well.

Well, the only guy you actually named, DeAndre Coleman isn´t on the Jaguars practice squad anymore but is on the Dolphins 53 as of right now.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Thompson tried to fix the D-line. He reached for Khyri Thornton, who is also on IR now.

Looking back, trading up in the third might have been a wise decision. The three picks before us where spend on Sutton, Nix (also on IR now) and Martin. I especially liked Martin, although he is a DE and not NT.

I was actually talking about the ILB position (should have been clearer about that) which had to be fixed this offseason, especially with trying to go lighter on the DL.

 

[Luca]

I was actually talking about the ILB position (should have been clearer about that) which had to be fixed this offseason, especially with trying to go lighter on the DL.

Fixing the ILB in this draft was tough. Mosley and Shazier were gone. After them there weren't many good options available. Fixing problems with a free agent is always tough. However Spikes might have been a good option. Ted probably shied away from his character concerns though.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Fixing the ILB in this draft was tough. Mosley and Shazier were gone. After them there weren't many good options available. Fixing problems with a free agent is always tough. However Spikes might have been a good option. Ted probably shied away from his character concerns though.

Agreed there were no viable options available in this year´s draft for the Packers. The position should have been addressed in free agency or during an earlier draft though.

 

[JBlood]

Taking a look at the Cardinals and 49ers defenses they had great ILBs last season, which seems to be an important factor considering the run defense when getting lighter on the DL.

Yes, our front 6 or 7 are being completely outplayed. But no where worse than up the middle.

 

[El Guapo]

Guion was a scrap heap pick up by TT. Always attempting to find a gem from another team on the cheap. The experiment has failed.

Spot on except for calling it an experiment. The Packers had two guys in Boyd and Daniels that showed a lot of promise down the stretch. The expectation was that one of those guys would take a step forward and anchor the position. For insurance, TT brought back Raji for cheap and also kicked the tires on Guion. I bet that the expectation was that Guion would wash out in the final cuts but due to Raji's injury and none of the young guys stepping up, Guion is the man. It's crazy how quickly things can change.

 

[OCBP]

Spot on except for calling it an experiment. The Packers had two guys in Boyd and Daniels that showed a lot of promise down the stretch. The expectation was that one of those guys would take a step forward and anchor the position. For insurance, TT brought back Raji for cheap and also kicked the tires on Guion. I bet that the expectation was that Guion would wash out in the final cuts but due to Raji's injury and none of the young guys stepping up, Guion is the man. It's crazy how quickly things can change.

Agreed. Losing Raji was big in theory.