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Packers vs Lions: Studs n Duds

Discussion in 'Green Bay Packers Fan Forum' started by PackAttack12, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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  2. RRyder

    RRyder Cheesehead

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    Completely bad analogy. RR could block and catch.

    Graham is a more expensive Allison with less speed
     
  3. greengold

    greengold Cheesehead

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    Yay. Math/Science. Totally agree. And of course they use THAT shot... while 2 or 3 other angles support it was not a TD. Not surprised.
     
  4. gbgary

    gbgary Cheesehead

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    nah...rodgers and allison have actually made plays for the Packers. graham has been a major disappointment.
     
  5. PackerFanLV

    PackerFanLV Cheesehead

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    Graham still getting paid off what he did when he played with the saints.
     
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  6. Calvin

    Calvin Cheesehead

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    According to Skip Bayless lol!
     
  7. Don Barclay

    Don Barclay Cheesehead

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    I just rewatched the game, and it looks to me like Alexander was only targeted twice, successfully defending both passes on Jones, one in the third and one in the fourth. Maybe Jones just couldn't bring it in on the 4thQ pass, hard to tell w/no replay angles. But that is STUD ISLAND level work for Jaire either way. I mean I might've missed a shot his way, but I don't think so.
     
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  8. greengold

    greengold Cheesehead

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    No, never would watch that POS. Just did the math...
     
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  9. greengold

    greengold Cheesehead

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    Boy. That dude can get no love around here. I was one of those thinking he was a total waste too. But, came to realize he did score our only TD against the Bears, and he's provided some solid play, along with lackluster play... Made a monster 3rd down conversion Monday Night, along with a great block to help a Rodgers completion to Lewis. Also had some great plays and blocks against DAL. Just to be fair to the guy. Maybe he's better than we might think. Was ranked the #6 TE in the NFL behind Witten after the DAL game by FO.
     
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  10. Pugger

    Pugger Cheesehead

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    To me both of the offenses looked very similar so how can one be right and the second one wrong??
     
  11. PackAttack12

    PackAttack12 R-E-L-A-X

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    I’m good with LaFleur having high standards for his receivers. Some of those passes, the receiver has to win the battle for the ball against the defender.

    Not disagreeing with your point, just highlighting that I’m good with LaFleur demanding more from our pass catchers.
     
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  12. hasamikun

    hasamikun Cheesehead

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    The receivers really need to laern how to catch. Its insane how many yards and points they cost the team with these drops. Especially G-Mo, who drops everything that comes to him( obvious hyperbole here). If he continues to play underwhelming like this, we wont see him again. I am really disappointed in him. Graham again had a TD drop, which was his strenght once but he really stepped up his blocking game and he seems to be good for 1,2 crucial 3rd down conversion, saw that against Detroit and Dallas on similar plays. LaFleur needs to make Lewis TE1 and give him the majority of snaps because the old man is balling right now. Didnt know that he still can be a deep threat but I am fine with this lol.
    Dont need to talk about Shep but he really needs to step up. He wont be here any longer if he cant produce soemthing. And please pump the breaks on Lazard. I really like him since the offseason and I kinda called that he can and will produce but its one game. But I loved that he made Coleman look like an UDFA rookie haha


    Defense balled again,except in the 1st quarter.

    Studs:
    Crosby- he is ahving a good season
    Lazard- happy for his game, he looks so aggressive etc. with more playtime he can be a good addition
    Jamaal- its a great feeling to have 2 good RBs, when one has a bad day, the other steps up. Thats luxury
    Rodgers- again good game management, his stats would have been insane if the WR and TEs didnt let him down
    Dline- the whole line contributed including Fackrell, Adams, Lowry etc. I love that front 7

    duds:
    Shep- already wrote about it
    King in 1st quarter- he stepped up after that but he seems to have a big weakness on deep throws.
    G-Mo- already wrote about it
    refs- they were really bad but I dont blame them for the Lions loss. The NFL really has to do something about it. Fire Riveron, make the refs full time and hold them accountable.
    Josh Jackson- he had snaps at special teams which isnt a good sign. Sullivan and Redmond have way more snaps than him in back to back games now. I really liked his potential last season but
    it doesnt look like he can contribute

    Also props to Redmond. He plays on a suprisingly good level. The defense misses Savage so hard but he is a serviceable replacement. The depth at DB is kinda insane.
     
  13. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    I think it was also a case of being told to stop, he didn't stop so he got a flag thinking he'd stop and then did it again. so they gave him another one.
     
  14. MichiganSportsTalk

    MichiganSportsTalk Lions fan for longer than I can remember

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    An eloquent retort, indeed.
     
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  15. GleefulGary

    GleefulGary Cheesehead

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    Rodgers was an awful blocker.
     
  16. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    He is not a retort!
     
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  17. GleefulGary

    GleefulGary Cheesehead

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    Sure, he's made some nice plays. He's even improved as a blocker. Still below-average there.

    He also dropped a TD pass. Missed blocks. Can't separate. He's slow out there. That catch where he actually had open field and couldn't make one guy miss, he looked like he was running in cement.

    Now if he was on the vet min, or something, fine. But he's not. He's the highest paid TE. So relative to the money he's getting, he's sucked.

    I don't know who FO is, but Graham hasn't been the best TE on the Packers, let alone 6th in the league! I can find rankings that say lots of things, don't just find one that fits your argument.

    Graham has been a below average TE, in all facets of the game, this year. He's getting paid too much to be that bad. It's that simple.
     
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  18. tynimiller

    tynimiller Cheesehead

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    Correct ^^^ Someone's value is relative to their cost as well, and Graham is like paying for a Jaguar and the dealer brings you the keys to an 88' Buick LeSabre
     
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  19. greengold

    greengold Cheesehead

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    GleefulGary, I'm not arguing anything. I thought he was garbage just like many here. I'm starting to see he has made some contributions, that's all. Agree, from a value standpoint, we should be getting WAY more production from him. I wish we had put those monies elsewhere... and, if I post some of that info, it is simply to share it. I found it surprising myself.
     
  20. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Perhaps LaFleur wants to make a point to the obvious offenders while throwing in a few others to give it the appearance of a team issue, thereby not throwing particular guys all the way under the public bus.

    I realize you're not disagreeing, but how about those splendid contested deep ball catches by MVS and Lazard? How many is not enough? It comes down to individual cases. So, I've gone back and looked at every incompletion in the Detroit game, 15 (including the INT) + 3 reprieved by Detroit penalties. I wish there were fewer. ;) Here are the results. I'm excluding those that were clearly untouched by a receiver:

    11:26, 1st quarter: This was Rodgers first throw of the game which I mentioned earlier. At first glance it appears that Allison dropped this short out. On slow mo replay we can see the defender hooked an arm and probably got a piece of the ball. LaFleur may have included this one in his count. I wouldn't.

    12:47, 2nd. quarter: At best, Allison extended to get a fingertip on a ball, or maybe not, that was high and wide on a short crosser. Rodgers was looking for a hold or PI call but didn't get it. He does like to throw at guys he sees being held to get the call. We can argue the sense of that elsewhere. By any criteria you would not count this as a drop.

    10:13, 2nd. quarter: This was Jones' deep throw drop, a little behind him but entirely uncontested. I don't think anybody would dispute that was a drop.

    10:07, 2nd. quarter: This was another Allison play where the defender hooked the arm and/or whacked the ball. That defender was called for a hold. Hold or not, it was not a drop.

    14:54, 3rd. quarter: This is the play Allison got knocked out of the game. Allison was the victim of a two-fer. Super slow-mo shows he got whacked on the head a split second after he got two hands on the ball. Then that defender's helmet followed through and whacked his arms and maybe a piece of the ball. This is not a drop whether it was flagged for illegal contact or not. I agree with that ex-official's commetary that it was legal play as the defender was playing the ball.

    2:43, 3rd. quarter: This was a short back shoulder to Kumerow that hit him in the leg. In super slo-mo you can see the defender grabbing his arm before the ball arrives. The pitch and attempted catch was clumsily executed. You can decide if Kumerow didn't run it quite right or Rodgers threw it too far inside. Whatever, the timing was off and I think refs are disinclined to give you a call if the execution has an ugly tint to it. Regardless, this is not a drop.

    14:11, 4th. quarter: This was a one-on-one jump ball to Graham in the end zone. It's hard to tell if the defender tipped the ball. What you do see in slow mo is the defender pushing his left arm away from the ball before it gets there. Graham's hands were so far apart as a result he'd have had to make a one hand catch. Unfortunately, the defender whacked that catching hand and/or the ball eliminating that possibility. This is not a drop.

    13:22, 4th. quarter: This is the Shepherd drop/pick. Again, the ball is either thrown behind or Rodgers was expecting him to sit down into that route and work back inside. Either way, that's a drop. Like Jones' play, we expect those kinds of imperfect uncontested balls to be caught.

    9:17, 4th. quarter: Lazard goes high above the DB to get two hands on it. As he comes down the ball hits the defenders helmet but it looks like Lazard is still going to pull it in. Then, before Lazard's feet even hits the ground, the defender whacks his arms and/or the ball and it falls incomplete. I don't think I'd call this a drop.

    That's all of them. There's the two obvious ones. I'm not sure which is ESPN Stat's third or LaFleurs additional four. I'd say the leading candidates are the first and the last in the above list along with the Graham play.

    The main takeaway, rather than quibbling about one drop or another, is how little separation there is in these routes, other than the two obvious drops, and in many of the completed passes as well. There was some chatter this past week about Rodgers not wanting to throw in tight spaces anymore. Well, go back and watch this tape. That's mostly what you'll find.
     
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  21. sschind

    sschind Cheesehead

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  22. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Not sure they showed the whole play in the replay during the game.

    What I think is funny is that the player insisted he didn't have his hands in the face and that he was holding onto Bahks' collar. Which of course would be a penalty for defensive holding.
     
  23. GleefulGary

    GleefulGary Cheesehead

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    The pass to Graham in the end zone, kind of a diving attempt with Rodgers on the move, that was a drop. I just didn't see it listed in your recap.
     
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  24. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Good "catch". It was this one:

    (8:27 - 2nd) (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass incomplete short left to J.Graham.

    There was no defender contact. Slo-mo shows had he secured it he'd have had a knee down in bounds.

    This would be the leading candidate for ESPN's 3rd. drop. The first and last in my list along with the other Graham play I cited would account for LaFleur's 6.
     
  25. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Not so fast. From the rule book:

    "ARTICLE 5. LEGAL USE OF HANDS OR ARMS BY DEFENSE. A defensive player may use his hands, arms, or body to push, pull, or ward off offensive players: (a) when he is defending himself against an obstructing opponent while attempting to reach the runner; (b) when an opponent is obviously attempting to block him; (c) in a personal attempt to reach a loose ball that has touched the ground during a backward pass, fumble, or kick; (d) during a forward pass that has crossed the neutral zone and has been touched by any player"

    If a defensive player can use his hands to "pull" a blocker as the rule states, which would imply grabbing the blocker, then grabbing is not per se an illegal hold. In this case it is a grab and "push". On its face the rule is vague. Is the push legal with a grab? It should be clarified. However, the officiating is pretty consistent on this matter. Pass rushers grab the blocker as a matter of acceptable technique and it goes uncalled. Everybody seems to accept this. It is also common and acceptable in the interior line. Some of the best D-Line plays are guys grabbing a blocker and throwing him aside to get to the ball carrier.

    The question here remains whether the face or neck was involved, not whether Bakhtiari was grabbed.

    As for Bakhtiari on these plays, we often hear it said there is offensive holding on every play. According to the rules, this may be true and Bakhtiari would be in violation of such. Nowhere do the rules say an OL can grab an an opponent's jersey even if it is commonly accepted practice. Here's the salient passage:

    "ARTICLE 2. LEGAL BLOCK BY OFFENSIVE PLAYER. An offensive player is permitted to block an opponent by contacting him with his head, shoulders, hands, and/or outer surface of the forearm, or with any other part of his body that is not prohibited by another rule. A blocker may use his arms, or open or closed hands, to contact an opponent on or outside the opponent’s frame (the body of an opponent below the neck that is presented to the blocker), provided that [when he contacts him outside his frame] he does not materially restrict him. The blocker must work immediately to bring his hands inside the opponent’s frame, and as the play develops, the blocker is permitted to work for and maintain his position against an opponent, provided that he does not illegally clip or illegally push from behind."

    A closed hand is generally taken to mean a fist, not a grab. You can punch a guy if you do it the right way, but modern technique says use an open hand then grab to control. Closed hands were common in the old days when blockers were prohibited from using hands altogether until 1976; they'd block with their forearms and then push of with the back of the fist.

    If the NFL means "closed fist" to include grabbing, they should say so. There's no definition in the rules. But grabbing is surely allowed if you stay from the pads in and don't keep holding as the guy is pulling away. The pull-away flop to get the call is somewhat popular.

    The NFL should say what they mean and mean what they say. That's why rules are written, here or anywhere. If grabbing with pushing and pulling, by the offense and defense, is what they allow, which they do allow, then say so.

    But the sloppy bullsh*t that really pisses me off is what we see in the legal block passage. See the phrase in brackets? I added that because that's what it intends to say. If you read the rule without my passage, it says a blocker cannot restrict an opponent when contacting him on his frame. That would interesting. All blocking abolished! These guys don't ever read their own rules.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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