Packers bringing in WR

[Un4GivN]

Two words.
Steve Largent.

Three words.

Thirty years ago!

 

[PackerDNA]

Point is, while you always want speed, it's meaningless unless your craft is perfected.
And Largent would have been great today, too.

 

[Mondio]

or how about naming all the speed guys that never amount to anything either? It's not as if Janis has never seen the field. He has and usually nobody even notices he's out there. OR Heyward Bey? I"m done with the "need someone to stretch the field" bit too, because Bolding caught contested balls in traffic over, thru and around defenders his entire career. People act as if they need someone fast to clear all the defenders out. A quick break, get the hands up, fight to the ball and catch it goes a lot further than anything else and he had it. Larry Fitz, also his teammate ran in the 4.6+ range too, but I suppose Bryant opened up all those passing lanes for him too? Devin Hester was fast, sucked as a WR, Tedd Gin Jr is fast, average at best WR. how about Troy WIlliamson he was pretty fast too. can't say much for his Receiving skills.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

And for every good 4.7 receiver (Boldin not great, above average yes but he will never be hall of fame bound not to mention he play with Torry Smith 4.35 and Bryant Johnson who ran a 4.35 to stretch the field for him) ... I can name 20 better ones that are faster. The one exception is Jerry Rice. That was also a different time in the league. When running and play action were huge, defenses were slower, and DB could actually touch a wide receiver. The league has changed.

You name 1... How about these names since 2000

Calvin Johnson 4.35
Andre Johnson 4.41 (now he's older and slower much less effective)
Antonio Brown 4.47
Randy Moss 4.25
Julio Jones 4.39
ODB 4.43
TO 4.45
Marvin Harrison 4.38
Reggie Wayne 4.45

Find me a list of dominate Hall of Fame style wide receivers like this of 4.7+ receivers in the last 15 years.

Speed is not everything, you have to be able to catch the ball... 40 time isnt everything as Jordy's was only 4.51 but i have seen him go deep many times. BUT you need someone to stretch the field, unless you are Tom Brady. In which case, game planning, quick release and other attributes make up for that. But no one can argue he was better with Randy Moss in his prime.

The problem isn't only speed, but a lack of a guy who can get open and catch the ball consistently. This is what makes Boldin great, and though Adams has the physical attributes, he clearly isn't the player on Sunday that Boldin is.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

People can post some of the best WR in league history and their "fast" 40 times, but I can post some of the best 40 times in history associated with a WR considered a bust. Speed is not THE ONLY measuring stick of a great WR.

Golden Richards: 4.2
Troy Williamson: 4.32
Darrius Heyward-Bey: 4.25
Charles Rodgers: 4.28
Rae Carruth: 4.17

 

[Un4GivN]

The problem isn't only speed, but a lack of a guy who can get open and catch the ball consistently. This is what makes Boldin great, and though Adams has the physical attributes, he clearly isn't the player on Sunday that Boldin is.

Boldin got open more because of Fitz... Which to give credit is also a slower receiver but also 6'3". But his best 3 years were in Arizona.

And yes, its about getting open. But where as physical receivers who may have been slower worked in the past they aren't as likely to work now.

And you cannot doubt that speed dominates... Look at that list i posted. All time greats, all with speed.

So I will end on this... (And it works 90 percent of the time, i understand the exceptions) While all fast receivers aren't great. All great receivers are fast. (Either extreme quickness in and out of cuts OR straight line) Even more so in the last 15 years than in the past.

 

[Un4GivN]

People can post some of the best WR in league history and their "fast" 40 times, but I can post some of the best 40 times in history associated with a WR considered a bust. Speed is not THE ONLY measuring stick of a great WR.

Golden Richards: 4.2
Troy Williamson: 4.32
Darrius Heyward-Bey: 4.25
Charles Rodgers: 4.28
Rae Carruth: 4.17

So? This is like saying I can throw 90 yards and must be a great quarterback... It is stupid logic to think that is all that matters. Otherwise just sign Usain Bolt. But to be great in this NFL you must have speed. (That works for about 90 percent of all great receivers in last 15 years) How can you even refute it? Can you have an exception? Sure. But it's more dumb luck than anything.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I will also end my input on this by going back to my Bill Walsh quote:

"track speed" VS "functional speed"

Yes, a guy with straight line speed has one attribute in a list of many, that can make him great. But alone, speed doesn't guarantee squadush.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

or how about naming all the speed guys that never amount to anything either? It's not as if Janis has never seen the field. He has and usually nobody even notices he's out there. OR Heyward Bey? I"m done with the "need someone to stretch the field" bit too, because Bolding caught contested balls in traffic over, thru and around defenders his entire career. People act as if they need someone fast to clear all the defenders out. A quick break, get the hands up, fight to the ball and catch it goes a lot further than anything else and he had it. Larry Fitz, also his teammate ran in the 4.6+ range too, but I suppose Bryant opened up all those passing lanes for him too? Devin Hester was fast, sucked as a WR, Tedd Gin Jr is fast, average at best WR. how about Troy WIlliamson he was pretty fast too. can't say much for his Receiving skills.

Our problem is that we are losing. The truth is, had Adams caught those balls that he is clearly capable of catching, things would look different now, he would be heralded as a future star, and we would be optimistic about our season and wouldn't even mention speed.

But he isn't producing, so we get into the "what if" scenarios and wish for this we don't have, whether or not they'll actually benefit us. If you don't have a physical mismatch or guy who can catch contested balls, or a scheme which will get guys open, the QB will never feel comfortable and the offense will suffer.

 

[Un4GivN]

Our problem is that we are losing. The truth is, had Adams caught those balls that he is clearly capable of catching, things would look different now, he would be heralded as a future star, and we would be optimistic about our season and wouldn't even mention speed.

But he isn't producing, so we get into the "what if" scenarios and wish for this we don't have, whether or not they'll actually benefit us. If you don't have a physical mismatch or guy who can catch contested balls, or a scheme which will get guys open, the QB will never feel comfortable and the offense will suffer.

I think that is untrue... The Packers have lacked a deep threat all season. Regardless if they win the super bowl I think it should be part of the discussion. One WR's injury shouldn't affect an offense as much as Jordy has. We have zero deep threats as of this time.

 

[Mondio]

the league is filled with receivers that are very good receivers that run 4.45-4.6. Green Bay led the league with a bunch of them at WR for years. We have plenty of speed now, what we don't have is guys doing the other things they need to do, like fight to the ball and catch it, or run a crisp route.

 

[Un4GivN]

I will also end my input on this by going back to my Bill Walsh quote:

"track speed" VS "functional speed"

Yes, a guy with straight line speed has one attribute in a list of many, that can make him great. But alone, speed doesn't guarantee squadush.

Once again 30 years ago.

As I have said 20 times already... Speed isn't everything, BUT to be great you must have it. It is just one of many attributes. You see them all on display with ODB. He can out run you, shake you in routes, catch passes that no other human can. Give that dude Tom Brady and he may turn out to be the best to ever play. But unfortunately for him he has mouth breathing Eli.

 

[Mondio]

I think that is untrue... The Packers have lacked a deep threat all season. Regardless if they win the super bowl I think it should be part of the discussion. One WR's injury shouldn't affect an offense as much as Jordy has. We have zero deep threats as of this time.

our deep threat runs a 4.5+ 40. I doubt he's on anybody's fast list. Dez Bryant is even slower and nobody says he's not a deep threat. We will see the ball go down field more often if Lacy and the Oline keep on the track they've been on the past couple games

 

[Un4GivN]

the league is filled with receivers that are very good receivers that run 4.45-4.6. Green Bay led the league with a bunch of them at WR for years. We have plenty of speed now, what we don't have is guys doing the other things they need to do, like fight to the ball and catch it, or run a crisp route.

1) We were talking about 4.7+... as this guy was

2) We had Jordy. 4.51 i believe? something close to stretch the field.

3) We have zero speed... Literally the slowest in the entire NFL without Jordy. SO please define plenty for me lol

 

[Mondio]

well we don't have anybody except for a qb and probably a TE that run in the 4.7 range on this offense at a skill position, so there's that

and a few posts up, clearly stated, 4.45-4.6 speed is PLENTY to be a very productive receiver in this league

 

[Un4GivN]

our deep threat runs a 4.5+ 40. I doubt he's on anybody's fast list. Dez Bryant is even slower and nobody says he's not a deep threat. We will see the ball go down field more often if Lacy and the Oline keep on the track they've been on the past couple games

They are both sub 4.55... NOT 4.7.

I don't know how to put this any other way for you to understand. Speed isn't the ONLY ATTRIBUTE. That is not even what I am saying. BUT it is an important one. Especially in this NFL.

well we don't have anybody except for a qb and probably a TE that run in the 4.7 range on this offense at a skill position, so there's that

and a few posts up, clearly stated, 4.45-4.6 speed is PLENTY to be a very productive receiver in this league

Please show me where I say it is PLENTY, and that more speed wouldn't be beneficial. I would love to see it.

You think Jones can run 4.45 right now? He ran 4.59 when he was 22, hes now 31. Have you seen him run routes lately? He's lucky if he runs 4.7. Watch his speed compared to Antionio Brown or Stephon Diggs? Tell me your thoughts.

Once again we have the SLOWEST receivers in the NFL. And that is not taking into account that Jones is no where near his combine speed being 31.

 

[Mondio]

speed n0t being the only attribute is kind of my point, so why are you so adamant to prove to me our offense is not producing because we have none? 4.45-4.6 is a range. Our guys are fast enough to play in the league, they aren't doing the other things they need to do. Sure I'd love more speed, what I'd love even more is for them to catch the ball that lands in their hands. That's a good place to start.

and I never said YOU said plenty. You asked me to define it, I already had, and pointed it out.

Just think if only we drafted Chad Jackson and his 4.3 speed instead of that bum Greg Jennings and is almost 4.5 speed

 

[Un4GivN]

speed n0t being the only attribute is kind of my point, so why are you so adamant to prove to me our offense is not producing because we have none? 4.45-4.6 is a range. Our guys are fast enough to play in the league, they aren't doing the other things they need to do. Sure I'd love more speed, what I'd love even more is for them to catch the ball that lands in their hands. That's a good place to start.

and I never said YOU said plenty. You asked me to define it, I already had, and pointed it out.

Just think if only we drafted Chad Jackson and his 4.3 speed instead of that bum Greg Jennings and is almost 4.5 speed

They aren't though...

Want to know the funny thing? Three Fastest starers on offense.

1. Eddie Lacy 4.44
2. Randall Cobb 4.46
3. James Starks 4.50

No wonder why we are getting more production from the screen game

Good stuff.

 

[Mondio]

They aren't though...

Want to know the funny thing? Three Fastest starers on offense.

1. Eddie Lacy 4.44
2. Randall Cobb 4.46
3. James Starks 4.50

No wonder why we are getting more production from the screen game

Good stuff.

you know what's even more funny, JOrdy is slower than all of them and he's one of the best Deep ball guys in the league

 

[Un4GivN]

speed n0t being the only attribute is kind of my point, so why are you so adamant to prove to me our offense is not producing because we have none? 4.45-4.6 is a range. Our guys are fast enough to play in the league, they aren't doing the other things they need to do. Sure I'd love more speed, what I'd love even more is for them to catch the ball that lands in their hands. That's a good place to start.

and I never said YOU said plenty. You asked me to define it, I already had, and pointed it out.

Just think if only we drafted Chad Jackson and his 4.3 speed instead of that bum Greg Jennings and is almost 4.5 speed

No but I'd trade Adams, Jones, Thorton, Richard Rodgers, Janis, Goodson and Bradford, Abberderis, for ODB. Basically that is the whole 2014 draft (Minus Clinton Dix and Linsley) plus Jones.

Sad that I would trade 4 wide receivers and a tight end, and defensive play for 1 guy. But truth is he has more of an impact than all of those players combined.

Give this bad man Aaron Rodgers some talent ****.... Mediocre at best at Wide receiver. Cobb is a good slot, Jordy is bad man himself. Other than that the talent is sadly lacking. Get him someone that is in the caliber of the wide receivers we have seen the last two years and we will see the old Aaron again.

 

[Un4GivN]

you know what's even more funny, JOrdy is slower than all of them and he's one of the best Deep ball guys in the league

Jordy is also 6'3 with hands of pure awesomeness. He is the exception to the rule. Not the rule. Just like every six round pick isn't Brady. As I said you put a list of Hall of Famers together in the past 16 years that are slow. The minute you can do that. Ill agree with you. Until then speed matters.

 

[Mondio]

Jordy is also 6'3 with hands of pure awesomeness. He is the exception to the rule. Not the rule. Just like every six round pick isn't Brady. As I said you put a list of Hall of Famers together in the past 16 years that are slow. The minute you can do that. Ill agree with you. Until then speed matters.

and every guy with 4.3 speed isn't Megatron. The door swings both ways. I don't even care to look thru and find fast guys that didn't do jack, and they're aren't exceptions either. The league is littered with them

I don't care if you agree with me. Our best offenses had guys in 4.45-4.6 range, just like we have now. Tell me that's not good enough to play in the NFL and I'll show you 10 years of production that show you it is.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

Jordy is also 6'3 with hands of pure awesomeness. He is the exception to the rule. Not the rule. Just like every six round pick isn't Brady. As I said you put a list of Hall of Famers together in the past 16 years that are slow. The minute you can do that. Ill agree with you. Until then speed matters.

It's like MMA fighters. It takes certain skills to succeed at a position, and a smaller contender can be better than a bigger one if they are more skilled. But speed and size give a huge advantage if they have great receiver skills.

Johnson, Jones, Moss etc. Have top notch receiver skills that would make them great players even if they were a step or two slower. But their speed makes them nearly unstoppable.

Personally, I like the beastly size/speed guys because of how high their ceilings are and how much havoc they can wreak if they are developed properly. Whereas Adams wouldn't ever give a defense as many fits as Megatron even if he did play to his full potential.

 

[Un4GivN]

It's like MMA fighters. It takes certain skills to succeed at a position, and a smaller contender can be better than a bigger one if they are more skilled. But speed and size give a huge advantage if they have great receiver skills.

Johnson, Jones, Moss etc. Have top notch receiver skills that would make them great players even if they were a step or two slower. But their speed makes them nearly unstoppable.

Personally, I like the beastly size/speed guys because of how high their ceilings are and how much havoc they can wreak if they are developed properly. Whereas Adams wouldn't ever give a defense as many fits as Megatron even if he did play to his full potential.

I think we are on the same page... Ceiling is higher for players with speed. Can you be serviceable being slower. Of course. Without a doubt.

But the real problem comes into play when you don't have a single guy to stretch the field. A TE or a fast receiver... Doesn't matter. No one fears the Packers deep threat. Which is why Rodgers says he sees so much single high. You don't run that against Julio, ODB, Calvin in his prime. Or you will get burned. Right now the Packers possess zero people to do that. Call it speed, athleticism, catching ability, route running...

Also there are other ways to fix the problem, to gloss over it. The patriots are slow as well, but Tom Brady at the given time is a better quarterback, Belichick is a better coach, and they make due with what they have. The Packers don't have that luxury, their coaching is average to slightly above average.

And for as good as Rodgers is, he is not a 4 time super bowl champion. Maybe one day he will be. But right now he isn't. He needs the help more than Brady does.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

speed

I think we are on the same page... Ceiling is higher for players with speed. Can you be serviceable being slower. Of course. Without a doubt.

But the real problem comes into play when you don't have a single guy to stretch the field. A TE or a fast receiver... Doesn't matter. No one fears the Packers deep threat. Which is why Rodgers says he sees so much single high. You don't run that against Julio, ODB, Calvin in his prime. Or you will get burned. Right now the Packers possess zero people to do that. Call it speed, athleticism, catching ability, route running...

Also there are other ways to fix the problem, to gloss over it. The patriots are slow as well, but Tom Brady at the given time is a better quarterback, Belichick is a better coach, and they make due with what they have. The Packers don't have that luxury, their coaching is average to slightly above average.

And for as good as Rodgers is, he is not a 4 time super bowl champion. Maybe one day he will be. But right now he isn't. He needs the help more than Brady does.

I personally think giving Brady the credit for every SB is ridiculous and a discredit to the rest of the team, seeing as they usually ended with the FG kicker ending the game, and we saw how the most recent one ended. Any QB worth his salt can drive a team into FG range in a 2 minute drill.