NFC North 2025

[Voyageur]

So I have to ask. How do you know he's not a premier QB? He's played two games? All players play well with good players around them.

Until he proves he's a premier QB he isn't. That's pretty simple. He "may" become one but as of now, there's nothing to indicate it's coming.

 

[rmontro]

Until he proves he's a premier QB he isn't. That's pretty simple. He "may" become one but as of now, there's nothing to indicate it's coming.

I don't even think Love has proven he's a premier quarterback yet. He's good. But premier?

 

[Voyageur]

I don't even think Love has proven he's a premier quarterback yet. He's good. But premier?

Agreed. Completely.

 

[OldSchool101]

So I have to ask. How do you know he's not a premier QB? He's played two games? All players play well with good players around them.

I’m really not out on any QB until about year 4-5 without seeing some marked growth. Saying a QB is washed up after a couple of live games reminds me of Jordan Love haters. No earthly idea of what they are talking about

 

[OldSchool101]

I don't even think Love has proven he's a premier quarterback yet. He's good. But premier?

I’m with you. He ain’t far away imo. Pretty young in Grand scheme. 2.5 years of starts in college and entering year 3 as an NFL starter? He’s ahead of his curve though.

I wonder what % of QB’s that enter the NFL qualify as “Premier”?? Probably need a clear definition or we chase our tails.

 

[Magooch]

I guess it's kind of a glass half-full vs glass half-empty but I'm generally of the mind to believe that any player (and not just QBs) should not be viewed as a "top" or "premier" or "elite" player until they've proven themselves to be one.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen it said that we don't need to draft a player or sign a player at a given position because we added so-and-so and they have this big potential. Yes, some players develop sooner than others, and of course there does have to be SOME amount of time/patience given for development, but they're not a top or premier or elite player just because they have some good traits or got a good pre-draft assessment.

I guess the alternative could just be to say "No grade" or "incomplete" for the first couple of years, but like I said, IMO I'm not willing to assume a player is a "premier" or "elite" player until they can demonstrate they've earned that title/status/etc by their actual play.

I think it was Bill Parcells (probably a paraphrase) who said something like "Potential just means you haven't done anything yet"

 

[Heyjoe4]

I guess it's kind of a glass half-full vs glass half-empty but I'm generally of the mind to believe that any player (and not just QBs) should not be viewed as a "top" or "premier" or "elite" player until they've proven themselves to be one.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen it said that we don't need to draft a player or sign a player at a given position because we added so-and-so and they have this big potential. Yes, some players develop sooner than others, and of course there does have to be SOME amount of time/patience given for development, but they're not a top or premier or elite player just because they have some good traits or got a good pre-draft assessment.

I guess the alternative could just be to say "No grade" or "incomplete" for the first couple of years, but like I said, IMO I'm not willing to assume a player is a "premier" or "elite" player until they can demonstrate they've earned that title/status/etc by their actual play.

I think it was Bill Parcells (probably a paraphrase) who said something like "Potential just means you haven't done anything yet"

I agree. Playing football or any sport at any level is about production - that is, winning. Players need to stand out by what they achieve and contribute to winning, not what they are capable of on paper.

I spent my career in consulting sales. I got paid when I closed contracts that were profitable. So I had an active if limited hand in project management. The ultimate goal is to win repeat, profitable business.

That's why I loved sales. You knew pretty much where you stood in the company's food chain. Producers get paid for results. I've seen both sides of it too.

 

[Thirteen Below]

Agreed. Completely.

He sure was starting to look like one the second half of 23, but he's been inconsistent since then. I'd still put him in the Top 15, and probably 10, but not Top 5 like some people were saying early in the season. I think he's shown improvement since the second half of 23, but frankly not as much as I'd hoped for.

 

[Heyjoe4]

He sure was starting to look like one the second half of 23, but he's been inconsistent since then. I'd still put him in the Top 15, and probably 10, but not Top 5 like some people were saying early in the season. I think he's shown improvement since the second half of 23, but frankly not as much as I'd hoped for.

I'm surprised at recent QB rankings that have him in the top 5. He put up great numbers non weeks 1 and 2 but week 3 was a killer. He might be a top 10 QB, but barely. He still has a lot to prove imo.

 

[OldSchool101]

I think it was Bill Parcells (probably a paraphrase) who said something like "Potential just means you haven't done anything yet

That’s partly true.
However then there’s the reality of playing Football. 32 Teams still Draft and retain players largely based on potential. Some of said players take 1 year, some take 5 years etc.

QB is one of the most difficult positions to master. Many examples of QBs who started slow for several seasons and went on to have long careers. Aaron Rodgers and Brett Favre had near identical and worse starts at this juncture of their careers. Seemed to work out pretty good old Bill Parcells!

 

[Voyageur]

When Love became our starter, it appeared he was going to be one of those QBs you'd have to live with having INTs. Kind of like Favre. In Favre's case, the good outweighed the bad mistakes because he did win games with his arm, but he also may have played us out of a couple of playoffs with some extremely ill-timed throws that ended in INTs and cost us a shot at winning games.

Then, Love cleaned up the INTs in year two. He looked like maybe with a little seasoning he'd get past the dumb mistakes like eating the ball after getting out of the pocket and ending up being sacked on 3rd down, moving us out of FG range. Year 3 rolls around and he's upped the ante on "dumb mistakes" and not seeing his receivers downfield. Part of it isn't on him, part of it is. Our offensive line has not been that stellar pass protection bunch we became accustomed to, but the one thing that is on Love is that he seems to be getting panicky and throwing ill-advised passes, or waiting too long to get out of harm's way and ending up getting sacked because he is in the pocket and can't throw the ball away.

The difference between an elite QB and a good one is pretty simple. Both can make the expected passes, and both will make plays once in a while. But to be elite, you need to be able to reach inside yourself and make decisions on plays that most QBs can't because they just don't see what you do. Rodgers was pure genius at it for a few years, even without decent pass protection at times, but you knew that being down 6 with 2 minutes to go and a couple of time outs and an 80-yard field ahead of you, the guy could guide his team that distance to win it at the end.

To be frank, if Love doesn't start to show that quality this year, not all the time but often enough to make his team believers, he'll never be an elite QB and the Packers should start to look for that diamond in the rough that sometimes emerges in drafts at a later round. You know the type. A Tom Brady type QB that people have overlooked.

 

[OldSchool101]

I’m going to let the season develop. Trying to rate a QB this early on the season (good or bad) is premature. Love’s MO has been to juice up as the season progresses and hopefully we get one of our top 3 WR back (Watson). We just lost 2 OL and likely our best WR and it’s a road game against what imo is a Top 5 Defense.

Love just came off a 9 game streak without an INT. After the game Matt admitted it wasn’t a good play call for that situation. I understood going for the jugular, but not until you get past midfield area. Had We Run? They would’ve used their last timeout either way and needed a 70+ yard drive 3:00 min gameclock best case.
Last possession rely on your D to close it out. Had we been at the GB47? Mmmm ok. Had it been a higher scoring 27-20 etc.. ok try to close it out. Cleveland scored 3 points across 57 minutes! What are we afraid of this isn’t Dom Capers here. Force them to burn #3 timeout and go 70 yards for a TD just to tie. This is why you pay Gary and Micah to be the closer.

I predict Love will string some nice games and get us into the postseason. Hopefully by then? we get 2 of our top 3 WR back off IR. Plus potentially another RB.

 

[Voyageur]

I’m going to let the season develop. Trying to rate a QB this early on the season (good or bad) is premature. Love’s MO has been to juice up as the season progresses and hopefully we get one of our top 3 WR back (Watson). We just lost 2 OL and likely our best WR and it’s a road game against what imo is a Top 5 Defense.

Love just came off a 9 game streak without an INT. After the game Matt admitted it wasn’t a good play call for that situation. I understood going for the jugular, but not until you get past midfield area. Had We Run? They would’ve used their last timeout either way and needed a 70+ yard drive 3:00 min gameclock best case.
Last possession rely on your D to close it out. Had we been at the GB47? Mmmm ok. Had it been a higher scoring 27-20 etc.. ok try to close it out. Cleveland scored 3 points across 57 minutes! What are we afraid of this isn’t Dom Capers here. Force them to burn #3 timeout and go 70 yards for a TD just to tie. This is why you pay Gary and Micah to be the closer.

I predict Love will string some nice games and get us into the postseason. Hopefully by then? we get 2 of our top 3 WR back off IR. Plus potentially another RB.

I hope you're right on him. I just fear that he's going to choke in a playoff game. That would be a disaster. But let's hope for the best.

 

[OldSchool101]

I hope you're right on him. I just fear that he's going to choke in a playoff game. That would be a disaster. But let's hope for the best.

I’m used to it I’m a Packer fan

I’ve got this!

 

[OldSchool101]

Also. If our D plays like this throughout the season? Jordan will be able to choke and we can still Win.

Kinda like Sunday

 

[Heyjoe4]

When Love became our starter, it appeared he was going to be one of those QBs you'd have to live with having INTs. Kind of like Favre. In Favre's case, the good outweighed the bad mistakes because he did win games with his arm, but he also may have played us out of a couple of playoffs with some extremely ill-timed throws that ended in INTs and cost us a shot at winning games.

Then, Love cleaned up the INTs in year two. He looked like maybe with a little seasoning he'd get past the dumb mistakes like eating the ball after getting out of the pocket and ending up being sacked on 3rd down, moving us out of FG range. Year 3 rolls around and he's upped the ante on "dumb mistakes" and not seeing his receivers downfield. Part of it isn't on him, part of it is. Our offensive line has not been that stellar pass protection bunch we became accustomed to, but the one thing that is on Love is that he seems to be getting panicky and throwing ill-advised passes, or waiting too long to get out of harm's way and ending up getting sacked because he is in the pocket and can't throw the ball away.

The difference between an elite QB and a good one is pretty simple. Both can make the expected passes, and both will make plays once in a while. But to be elite, you need to be able to reach inside yourself and make decisions on plays that most QBs can't because they just don't see what you do. Rodgers was pure genius at it for a few years, even without decent pass protection at times, but you knew that being down 6 with 2 minutes to go and a couple of time outs and an 80-yard field ahead of you, the guy could guide his team that distance to win it at the end.

To be frank, if Love doesn't start to show that quality this year, not all the time but often enough to make his team believers, he'll never be an elite QB and the Packers should start to look for that diamond in the rough that sometimes emerges in drafts at a later round. You know the type. A Tom Brady type QB that people have overlooked.

Good point. Given the high level of play from the D, Love may be just fine as long as that holds. But it seems MLF should have prepared better, given a really solid defense in Cleveland.

The NFL season, like all sports' seasons, ebbs and flows. The loss to Cleveland is still a huge miss, but the team will be fine imo. Sometimes these losses are ok at level setting, especially early in the year, when a team starts believing too much in its press.

That's cold comfort as a fan. And when the D gives up 13 points, and it could be argued it was only 3, well those games have to be won.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Also. If our D plays like this throughout the season? Jordan will be able to choke and we can still Win.

Kinda like Sunday

Yeah with this D, the QB does not have to be HOF bound. That said, this is a talented team all around and Love showed a lot of growth in the first two games. The offense should have been able to put up 20-25 points, even against an excellent D.

 

[OldSchool101]

Yeah with this D, the QB does not have to be HOF bound. That said, this is a talented team all around and Love showed a lot of growth in the first two games. The offense should have been able to put up 20-25 points, even against an excellent D.

Let’s chalk this first Loss to undisciplined play (8-4th Qtr flags) and some disorganized OL after losing 2 OL in the first Half. I know injury shouldn’t be an excuse but I think it’ll take a minute to adjust after losing Reed also. A few weeks that type thing. It can be a positive also getting other players experience (such as Savion, Belton or Fitzgerald etc.). That’s not ideal but it does help those guys grow confident and we get to see what we’ve got there also.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Let’s chalk this first Loss to undisciplined play (8-4th Qtr flags) and some disorganized OL after losing 2 OL in the first Half.

I agree with you, but I think you need to hold MLF and Bisaccia accountable for the loss as well. Undisciplined play can be a direct reflection of the coaching staff. More importantly, MLF continues to prove to me that he shouldn't be the one calling the plays. He is too slow to adapt in game, as well as too slow at getting the play calls in. Appoint a full time OC and let them take charge.

As far as Bisaccia goes, his special teams units have always been prone to penalties and for having more negative plays than positive ones. While he is better than the shit show that he replaced, I just think there has to be a better alternative for the job in 2026.

 

[Voyageur]

I'm going to try to blow a few minds here. But I think everyone can see what I'm saying. It's difficult explaining it but I'll try.

The best QBs in the NFL throw to a man before he comes open in his pass route. The average QB does it at times but opts to throw to what he perceives as a receiver who is open when he makes the throw. When you throw to the open man, and he's moving, the ball is often thrown behind them, not to where they will be because the QB's mind processes it in a "now" sense, not in a future based on movement. Think of how often we see Love throw behind his receivers, and I'm not referring to the back shoulder throw. It's quite often.

I hear a lot of announcers referring to it as being protective of the receiver or done because throwing it further out-front invites an INT. I disagree with them more than half the time as I watch the play unfold. I'm seeing a QB who doesn't trust the process of a timing route or one whose mind can't process what the receiver will do under various circumstances as presented by the way the defense plays. I think Love has a problem in trusting the system too often because he's unable to make those reads as the play is developing.

He has the arm and the ability to pin-point those throws but he lacks the trust in being able to do it because of the way they drilled it into his head during his first year as the starter when it came to dealing with reducing his number of INTs.

As a receiver, Romeo Doubs is a technician in running routes. He does it extremely well as some of us understand. But when he does run precise routes and sees that opportunities are blown because Love can't read the field properly, it leads to frustration. He knows in the back of his mind that Love is not connecting with his receivers the way he should. He's opting to throw to the open receiver not the one coming open where the best play actually is.

No matter how many great receivers the Packers trot out on the field with Love, until he trusts the system and let's it loose, we shouldn't expect elite play out of him. The biggest question we need to ask is whether or not it will ever happen, or will the Packers constantly try to "upgrade" their receiving corps in an attempt to deflect the responsibility away from Love. Unless they get Love to make those reads don't expect any more Lombardi Trophies to grace the Packer Hall Of Fame.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm going to try to blow a few minds here. But I think everyone can see what I'm saying. It's difficult explaining it but I'll try.

The best QBs in the NFL throw to a man before he comes open in his pass route. The average QB does it at times but opts to throw to what he perceives as a receiver who is open when he makes the throw. When you throw to the open man, and he's moving, the ball is often thrown behind them, not to where they will be because the QB's mind processes it in a "now" sense, not in a future based on movement. Think of how often we see Love throw behind his receivers, and I'm not referring to the back shoulder throw. It's quite often.

I hear a lot of announcers referring to it as being protective of the receiver or done because throwing it further out-front invites an INT. I disagree with them more than half the time as I watch the play unfold. I'm seeing a QB who doesn't trust the process of a timing route or one whose mind can't process what the receiver will do under various circumstances as presented by the way the defense plays. I think Love has a problem in trusting the system too often because he's unable to make those reads as the play is developing.

He has the arm and the ability to pin-point those throws but he lacks the trust in being able to do it because of the way they drilled it into his head during his first year as the starter when it came to dealing with reducing his number of INTs.

As a receiver, Romeo Doubs is a technician in running routes. He does it extremely well as some of us understand. But when he does run precise routes and sees that opportunities are blown because Love can't read the field properly, it leads to frustration. He knows in the back of his mind that Love is not connecting with his receivers the way he should. He's opting to throw to the open receiver not the one coming open where the best play actually is.

No matter how many great receivers the Packers trot out on the field with Love, until he trusts the system and let's it loose, we shouldn't expect elite play out of him. The biggest question we need to ask is whether or not it will ever happen, or will the Packers constantly try to "upgrade" their receiving corps in an attempt to deflect the responsibility away from Love. Unless they get Love to make those reads don't expect any more Lombardi Trophies to grace the Packer Hall Of Fame.

I agree with you, but it also seems to be a trait that a QB develops, or doesn't develop, over time. It separates the great ones from the just average and below. Rodgers has this ability, times 2. That said, it also has a lot to do with timing and chemistry with receivers. Doubs is the only receiver on this roster that is in his 4th year with Jordan. So as Jordan as grown, so has Doubs. Also, technically speaking, this is only Jordan's 3rd season working full time with Doubs.

While I am with you and others, in questioning whether Jordan will eventually take that next step, I think it is only fair to give him more time to do so. At this point, the Packers are all in for this season and next with #10, so patience is really all we can have.

I also don't believe that Jordan has played with any "great" receivers, just yet. Doubs, Reed, Golden and Watson, all might develop into that, but aren't there just yet.

 

[OldSchool101]

I'm going to try to blow a few minds here. But I think everyone can see what I'm saying. It's difficult explaining it but I'll try.

The best QBs in the NFL throw to a man before he comes open in his pass route. The average QB does it at times but opts to throw to what he perceives as a receiver who is open when he makes the throw. When you throw to the open man, and he's moving, the ball is often thrown behind them, not to where they will be because the QB's mind processes it in a "now" sense, not in a future based on movement. Think of how often we see Love throw behind his receivers, and I'm not referring to the back shoulder throw. It's quite often.

I hear a lot of announcers referring to it as being protective of the receiver or done because throwing it further out-front invites an INT. I disagree with them more than half the time as I watch the play unfold. I'm seeing a QB who doesn't trust the process of a timing route or one whose mind can't process what the receiver will do under various circumstances as presented by the way the defense plays. I think Love has a problem in trusting the system too often because he's unable to make those reads as the play is developing.

He has the arm and the ability to pin-point those throws but he lacks the trust in being able to do it because of the way they drilled it into his head during his first year as the starter when it came to dealing with reducing his number of INTs.

As a receiver, Romeo Doubs is a technician in running routes. He does it extremely well as some of us understand. But when he does run precise routes and sees that opportunities are blown because Love can't read the field properly, it leads to frustration. He knows in the back of his mind that Love is not connecting with his receivers the way he should. He's opting to throw to the open receiver not the one coming open where the best play actually is.

No matter how many great receivers the Packers trot out on the field with Love, until he trusts the system and let's it loose, we shouldn't expect elite play out of him. The biggest question we need to ask is whether or not it will ever happen, or will the Packers constantly try to "upgrade" their receiving corps in an attempt to deflect the responsibility away from Love. Unless they get Love to make those reads don't expect any more Lombardi Trophies to grace the Packer Hall Of Fame.

This year should be a good growth year from Jordan. His first year he was throwing a yard behind Receivers and there were a couple of games we lost because of it.
In 2024 he started rough. Across his first 3 Starts he posted a combined 56.1% reception rate. Throwing 8 TD’s to 5 INT and pedestrian 87.23% Passer Rating.
Across his next 12 games he threw
17 TD’s to just 6 INT; 64.5% rec rate and a stellar 100.3% Passer rating.

This is 2 years now that he’s clearly improved as the season progressed.

In his last 7 games of both of the 2023,2024 (14 games) seasons combined Love threw for
27 TD’s and 1 INT. Think about that. It’s Premier level QB play. Not HOF level (lack of top volume) but easily Probowl worthy. That was also against some good opponents with several Top 10 Defenses peppered into equation. It’s not like the level of competition fell off. Now I’m not suggesting this is automatic. I’m just pointing out that there is strong evidence to suggest that Jordan Love regularly tends to get in a groove as the season progresses.

What I’m most wanting to see is not Love being perfect TD:INT, but rather finding that “groove” earlier than Week 11. In year 3 one would expect to see that spike in consistent, clean production between games 6-8 area. My contention is this. If you can play a pair of 7 game stretches nearly error free and at Probowl level across your first 2 starting seasons? You can elevate those to longer stretches.

With this Defense he doesn’t need to carry the team anymore. Jordan needs to
1. Get adequate Protection (he did not have that at Cleveland)
2. Limit Costly Mistakes, particularly when we are playing with a TD+ lead into the 4th Quarter, Low scoring etc.
3. Be consistently good sooner in the season.

 

[Magooch]

The tricky thing too is that IMO it's just as much about "trusting the system" as it is trusting your receivers, too. The whole "throwing your man open" means trusting in the system and play design AND trusting that your WR is able to execute it properly. The QB can be all bought in on the system, route design, etc, but if he throws it to the "spot" (where the open man *should* end up being) rather than when the WR is actually open...then if the WR doesn't execute properly it ends up being a bad miss or INT. And fair or not - those almost always reflect more poorly on the QB than the WR. I think this is something we saw a lot with Rodgers - IMO he didn't have any (or many ) issues with the "system" or play design or route progressions or whatever...but he didn't always have that trust in his WR(s). In this sense it didn't matter how bought in to the system he was; there were just certain throws he wasn't going to make because he couldn't trust his WR to be in an inch-perfect position to make a play on it.

I remember years ago watching a breakdown with some former QB (I forget who at this point, haha) but he was basically talking about how so many plays are predicated on having such precise timing and that's something we often don't see as fans. It might look like a guy is open (or about to be) but the QB doesn't get them the ball. And sometimes that's because they simply didn't see them or something "easy" like that...but other times the QB hasn't worked through his progression how he's supposed to yet. Maybe he's just finished his drop and doesn't have his feet set to make that throw. Maybe the receiver is only open because they ran the wrong route or broke at the wrong time and just happened to end up being open as a result. And so you wind up in these situations where if the QB's going to hit that guy...to do so requires them to work outside that system. In other words - somewhat ironically - sometimes "trusting the system" in fact means that you DO don't always hit the "open" guy. (And I think sometimes you see coaches specifically ask this, too - they want their QB to give plays more time to develop and work through their full progression before making the throw rather than cutting the play "short" because they see someone open, you know?)

Now I am not saying this is all necessarily the case with Love either; I have had my share of critiques as well, but it's more or less just food for thought I guess.

 

[OldSchool101]

Matt also needs to do a better job regulating the flow of the game. If your unable to move the ball much, but your in a 7Pt+ lead late in the 4th quarter. If your opponent has only scored 3 points across 57 minutes? Don’t risk it. Eat the 3 min of clock and force your opponent go 70+ yards to tie without timeouts. Don’t give them any favors and play the field position and clock. Every :40 of clock = 1.5 points scored. Staying in bounds is literally better than points in those scenarios. Need better clock and game flow management.

Good news:

Caleb has S the bed
Goff has S the bed
McCarthy has S the bed
Love has S the bed.

It’s S that’s out of our system and down the toilet, we don’t need to smell it or relive it. We also don’t need perfection that perfection Monkey is off of our back. We need consistency.

 

[milani]

I’m going to let the season develop. Trying to rate a QB this early on the season (good or bad) is premature. Love’s MO has been to juice up as the season progresses and hopefully we get one of our top 3 WR back (Watson). We just lost 2 OL and likely our best WR and it’s a road game against what imo is a Top 5 Defense.

Love just came off a 9 game streak without an INT. After the game Matt admitted it wasn’t a good play call for that situation. I understood going for the jugular, but not until you get past midfield area. Had We Run? They would’ve used their last timeout either way and needed a 70+ yard drive 3:00 min gameclock best case.
Last possession rely on your D to close it out. Had we been at the GB47? Mmmm ok. Had it been a higher scoring 27-20 etc.. ok try to close it out. Cleveland scored 3 points across 57 minutes! What are we afraid of this isn’t Dom Capers here. Force them to burn #3 timeout and go 70 yards for a TD just to tie. This is why you pay Gary and Micah to be the closer.

I predict Love will string some nice games and get us into the postseason. Hopefully by then? we get 2 of our top 3 WR back off IR. Plus potentially another RB.

I believe this week looks very bittersweet. Cowboys on the road. But with a decimated offensive line we may make their defense look top 10. Yards are not going to come easy even though this is not the Browns. And stopping the Cowboy offense is not like stopping the Browns. Prescott has a good track record. The last time I recall having an offensive line in this shape may have been 2015 when we went into Arizona during the season. Rodgers was running for his life and we got torched 38-8. We had to get him out of there so he could stand the next week.