Need dline, not more LBs

[HardRightEdge]

as of now, we know they're both not under contract for next season. I think there's a much higher chance Goodson is back than Martinez for the reasons mentioned above. He's not going to cost a lot and he's actually pretty decent at what he does in the run game. He's limited, but then his salary will be too so I think it's worth it for him.

An alternative to Goodson, a guy I mentioned a few days ago, might be Reggie Ragland who evidently played well for the Chiefs in that base D role, 37% snap count. In the world of ILB free agents, rotational players like Ragland don't register even 2.0 on the Richter Scale. He'd cost more than Goodson I would expect, but not a whole lot more.

For example, a combo of Queen with Ragland in base and Queen with a SS-type hybrid ILB, say Greene or a reasonable facimile, in nickel/dime would be an upgrade without spending a lot of cap on the group. I prefer Queen over Murray, but others might disagree.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Seems silly for so many people to be ripping on martinez. When he is by far the best Ilb we have had in dang near a decade. Imo... So is he worth what he will get? That is the real question. That's up to gute.

While Martinez was most likely one of the best inside linebackers on the Packers in the last 10 years that's mainly because the team has lacked talent at the position for way too long.

Rather, we need two decent D Tackles and the inside linebacker. Though if we got a very good DT; I could see going a traditional 4-3 with the Jones Bros. as DEs and mixing in Rashan hopefully.

In my opinion fans have to realize that the base defense is used on less than 30% of the defensive snaps at this point. Therefore there's too much stock being placed on running a 3-4 or 4-3 defense.

The Packers need to add talent on the defensive line as well as inside linebacker no matter what scheme they actually want to play for the majority of the snaps.

That said, Blake Martinez’ known lack of speed (4.71X40) was exposed. He’s only as good on that assembly line as the man before him. He’s not fast enough to make OL miss and he’s too slow to get tangled up in a block and still keep his angle (which he uses along with his awareness and acumen to make up for lack of speed). This notion that he has poor instincts is not accurate. It’s also not consistent with him leading the league in tackles.

The problem being that Martinez makes most of his tackles with the opponent already having gained several yards. He hasn't made enough impact plays to justify paying a lot of money to retain him.

 

[gopkrs]

While Martinez was most likely one of the best inside linebackers on the Packers in the last 10 years that's mainly because the team has lacked talent at the position for way too long.

In my opinion fans have to realize that the base defense is used on less than 30% of the defensive snaps at this point. Therefore there's too much stock being placed on running a 3-4 or 4-3 defense.
The Packers need to add talent on the defensive line as well as inside linebacker no matter what scheme they actually want to play for the majority of the snaps.


Less than 30% of the plays seems like a lot to me. And finding DTs that play well in that base formation is a good idea. Would like one DT that is very good and another one that is an upgrade on what we have.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Less than 30% of the plays seems like a lot to me. And finding DTs that play well in that base formation is a good idea. Would like one DT that is very good and another one that is an upgrade on what we have.

Don't get me wrong the Packers need to improve the talent level on the defensive line. That's completely independent from the scheme the team will run next season though.

 

[gopkrs]

Don't get me wrong the Packers need to improve the talent level on the defensive line. That's completely independent from the scheme the team will run next season though.

We basically agree. It is just that I can envision a scenario where you would want one D lineman over another because of the scheme that will be your bread and butter. Or that might compliment the other defensive players better. Maybe one player over another should actually change which scheme you like to run. I don't think it is always about reacting to your opponent. Sometimes you just have to go with what you do best and then adjust if you can/need to.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It is just that I can envision a scenario where you would want one D lineman over another because of the scheme that will be your bread and butter.

The nickel and dime defenses are the ones used on the majority of the defensive snaps though.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Both... they need both.

But they, and the majority of the league, are a 2 DL defense (excluding edge). They have Clark, who is a stud. They paid Lowry, who is solid, but not special by any means. Behind them, the rotational depth would be Lancaster, Adams, and Keke.

They can absolutely add more quality to that depth and rotate more. And I think they should. But you continue to think that they are or should be a 3 DL defense. They are not and should not be. That's not this league any more.

But that has nothing to do with Martinez not being good, and linebacker being a huge need. I'm a little confused when you say that they shouldn't draft "another" linebacker while ignoring DL. That seems to suggest that they have a habit of ignoring the line and draft lots of linebackers. Which isn't true at all. In the last 10 years, they've draft 6 DL in the top 100 and only 1 off-ball linebacker.

I was basically referencing last years olbs. And all the cap space and draft capital they cost ...

Rt is a big concern too. I wouldn't be against a brawler o tackle. ..
Ilb could be a good move ... I won't completely melt down . There are some awesome lb prospects this year. Based on combine results at least...

But we need some sweet dline moves... I'm all for scrapping everyone behind lowry on the depth chart and doing to the dline what we did with the olbs last year.... But realistically if we need a good Ilb and one falls to is. We could make that move and still make it work...

I want Poe. I read Carolina might drop him or something... We better be ready if they do. Imo.

But seriously... We need to consider the 3 good dlinemen and one ilb plan. The secondary is good enough. The olbs are dominant .If we can get 3 dominant dlinemen on the field with them . One Ilb to make the tackles is all we need.

Martinez I expect to price himself out of greenbay. 10 mil is way too much . So at least one very good Ilb is needed . I just can't see how a 230 pound rookie Ilb is going to change anything for us. Imo.

 

[melvin dangerr]

I have to agree we need help on the D’line but LB’s inside or outside are crucial, how many times did we see a running back break past the D’line out run the LB’s and those DB’s can’t tackle (and at times won’t tackle) and it ends up a big gain see re:SF playoffs, we have to have smart draft and address this issue(s)..

 

[Dantés]

I was basically referencing last years olbs. And all the cap space and draft capital they cost ...

Rt is a big concern too. I wouldn't be against a brawler o tackle. ..
Ilb could be a good move ... I won't completely melt down . There are some awesome lb prospects this year. Based on combine results at least...

But we need some sweet dline moves... I'm all for scrapping everyone behind lowry on the depth chart and doing to the dline what we did with the olbs last year.... But realistically if we need a good Ilb and one falls to is. We could make that move and still make it work...

I want Poe. I read Carolina might drop him or something... We better be ready if they do. Imo.

But seriously... We need to consider the 3 good dlinemen and one ilb plan. The secondary is good enough. The olbs are dominant .If we can get 3 dominant dlinemen on the field with them . One Ilb to make the tackles is all we need.

Martinez I expect to price himself out of greenbay. 10 mil is way too much . So at least one very good Ilb is needed . I just can't see how a 230 pound rookie Ilb is going to change anything for us. Imo.

You need to make a distinction between edge rushers and off the ball linebackers. The Smith's and Gary may be labeled "outside linebackers" in a base 3-4, but they are edge players. They play alongside the defensive linemen, not behind them.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

But we need some sweet dline moves... I'm all for scrapping everyone behind lowry on the depth chart and doing to the dline what we did with the olbs last year....

But seriously... We need to consider the 3 good dlinemen and one ilb plan. The secondary is good enough. The olbs are dominant .If we can get 3 dominant dlinemen on the field with them . One Ilb to make the tackles is all we need.

The Packers don't have enough cap space and more dire needs to address to spend a ton of money on the defensive line in free agency.

With the NFL mostly being a passing league in this era defenses mostly line up with only two defensive linemen. I know that you don't like the concept but it's the way it works these days.

 

[gopkrs]

The Packers don't have enough cap space and more dire needs to address to spend a ton of money on the defensive line in free agency.

With the NFL mostly being a passing league in this era defenses mostly line up with only two defensive linemen. I know that you don't like the concept but it's the way it works these days.

well, we could probably afford it if we run with Sternberger and Tonyan. And how soon they forget how we got thrashed by the running game.

 

[morango]

Don't get me wrong the Packers need to improve the talent level on the defensive line. That's completely independent from the scheme the team will run next season though.

Back to the OP. I'm a big believer in building a team in the trenches with OL and DL. The main reason we need at least one really good DL in FA or the draft is simply to cut down on Kenny Clark's snap count. We are going to pay the guy a sh*t ton of dollars on a four or five year contract. The packers cannot run him out there for 90% of the defensive snap counts like the last couple of years. They'll run him into the ground, get him injured, and never get the worth of the contract out of him. We need some good DL. That's a fact.

 

[Dantés]

I'd like the Packers to check in on A'Shawn Robinson.

He is coming off his rookie deal after being a 2nd rounder for the Lions. He was one of the better run defenders in the league in 2018, but things really fell apart for their DL last year.

At 6'4" 320-ish, he has the ability to two gap and play both nose and end. Could be cheaper as he's coming off a down season and is more of a run defender than pass rusher. Only 24.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

The Packers don't have enough cap space and more dire needs to address to spend a ton of money on the defensive line in free agency.

With the NFL mostly being a passing league in this era defenses mostly line up with only two defensive linemen. I know that you don't like the concept but it's the way it works these days.

I don't like that we need two studs on the field for the concept to work. That doesn't include the quality rotation and depth..... We get Clark and call it good ... Paid lowry as our elite backup, according to the article I read.
So what if Clark went down week 1 for the season?
Do the Smith Bros kick as much ***? Does the secondary look good anymore?

Same goes for bahk...

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I'm still wondering what one of the Smith's would bring in a trade? Could we get two 1st round picks for a 25 year old 12 sack rusher with three years left on a fair deal?

Accomplishes two goals. Gives draft capital to add 1st round o and d tackles this year... And second it opens the door for Gary..... Leaves our #30 pick for Ilb to replace Martinez.....

And get Poe on the plane to gb when he gets dropped. Please

 

[OldSchool101]

Back to the OP. I'm a big believer in building a team in the trenches with OL and DL. The main reason we need at least one really good DL in FA or the draft is simply to cut down on Kenny Clark's snap count. We are going to pay the guy a sh*t ton of dollars on a four or five year contract. The packers cannot run him out there for 90% of the defensive snap counts like the last couple of years. They'll run him into the ground, get him injured, and never get the worth of the contract out of him. We need some good DL. That's a fact.

I have the need for iDL in the forefront of our second level needs. Right behind WR, ILB, with OT floating in the middle.
We desperately need an upgrade at both iLB and iDL or we’ll get slaughtered again against our opponents running attack.
If we can sign Martinez reasonable and add Queen as his co-pilot, GB would immediately see results. Going after a Proven veteran iDL in a trade or FA would give GB the 1-2 punch it is missing.

We actually need both.

 

[GleefulGary]

I'm still wondering what one of the Smith's would bring in a trade? Could we get two 1st round picks for a 25 year old 12 sack rusher with three years left on a fair deal?

Accomplishes two goals. Gives draft capital to add 1st round o and d tackles this year... And second it opens the door for Gary..... Leaves our #30 pick for Ilb to replace Martinez.....

And get Poe on the plane to gb when he gets dropped. Please

.....


What?

 

[Packer Fan in SD]

I'm still wondering what one of the Smith's would bring in a trade?

Busy watching the Bucks game, but my guess is a big cap hit.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That doesn't include the quality rotation and depth..... We get Clark and call it good ... Paid lowry as our elite backup, according to the article I read.
So what if Clark went down week 1 for the season?

As I've mentioned before the Packers need to add talent on the defensive line but they shouldn't spend big in free agency to make it work.

I'm still wondering what one of the Smith's would bring in a trade?

It would be a terrible move to even think about trading one of the Smiths.

If we can sign Martinez reasonable and add Queen as his co-pilot, GB would immediately see results.

Hopefully Martinez will price himself out of Green Bay.

 

[morango]

Relevant questions for those of you who watch more tape and understand things better:

1) Is part of the packers problem in run defense because the Smith Bros are not great run defenders, not good at setting the edge? (as I understand it, when the two OLBs are functioning as DEs alongside 2 down lineman, they need to be run defenders as well as pass rushers - tough job).

2) Is the main problem on the DL really just a lack of quality talent other than Kenny Clark? Lowry, Lancaster, Adams, Keke... some okay rotational depth, but no one even close to dominant, and no one good enough to spell Clark when needed.

3) Scheme? Is part of this on Pettine?

IMO this need on DL is nearly as important as ILB. I like Dantes idea with A-Shawn Robinson - he hadnt been on the FA radar for me. In the draft, I like the possible mid-round value picks of Davon Hamilton (OSU), Jordan Elliot (Missouri), and Leki Fotu (Utah). The first two are more of 3-techs and Fotu is strictly a nose tackle.

 

[Dantés]

Relevant questions for those of you who watch more tape and understand things better:

1) Is part of the packers problem in run defense because the Smith Bros are not great run defenders, not good at setting the edge? (as I understand it, when the two OLBs are functioning as DEs alongside 2 down lineman, they need to be run defenders as well as pass rushers - tough job).

2) Is the main problem on the DL really just a lack of quality talent other than Kenny Clark? Lowry, Lancaster, Adams, Keke... some okay rotational depth, but no one even close to dominant, and no one good enough to spell Clark when needed.

3) Scheme? Is part of this on Pettine?

IMO this need on DL is nearly as important as ILB. I like Dantes idea with A-Shawn Robinson - he hadnt been on the FA radar for me. In the draft, I like the possible mid-round value picks of Davon Hamilton (OSU), Jordan Elliot (Missouri), and Leki Fotu (Utah). The first two are more of 3-techs and Fotu is strictly a nose tackle.

I'll give you my thoughts, but it's not like I'm re-watching every Packer game and breaking down the tape.

I think the Smith brothers are pretty good run defenders, but they both definitely had a bad game against SF in the NFCCG. They couldn't hold the edge against the 49ers blockers. The good news is that Gary, if he develops into his projection, will be a very strong POA run defender, and he's already in the pipeline.

They certainly need better rotational depth on the defensive line. Lowry is solid, but he too had a poor showing against SF. He's not going to 2 gap and he isn't really disruptive as a penetrator. The quickest way to shut down a zone rushing attack is to create disruption in the backfield. They don't really have anyone who can do that. Adams was meant to be that guy and hasn't developed. Keke may get there-- we have to wait and see. They could add a guy like that, but it will be expensive. They could also add more of a block-eater run specialist who could then free up Clark for more one on one opportunities. That's probably a more cost effective approach.

Pettine's approach prioritizes the pass defense. He will say that himself. His players play the run on the way to the QB, and there is minimal two gapping. Now that said, he very obviously changed his approach for the SF game. He's not an idiot. But we didn't have the personnel to pull off the change in approach. His guys got it totally handed to them.

 

[tynimiller]

I'm still wondering what one of the Smith's would bring in a trade? Could we get two 1st round picks for a 25 year old 12 sack rusher with three years left on a fair deal?

Accomplishes two goals. Gives draft capital to add 1st round o and d tackles this year... And second it opens the door for Gary..... Leaves our #30 pick for Ilb to replace Martinez.....

And get Poe on the plane to gb when he gets dropped. Please

.....


What?

I mean it is a seriously valid outside the box concept of a question. Imagine a world where Gute adds a 1st rounder, re-sign Fackrell cheaper, Gary steps up into a larger role and Gute enters the draft with some serious Day 1 equity.

HOWEVER, the Smiths have literally changed the entire defensive feel and atmosphere of this locker room and team. It was incredible to see unfold and that gelling if it stays or dare we hope gets tighter in year two could be the special kicker to a SB run. While I love the outside the normal thought, and there is some validity to the process behind it...there is NO way anyone should do it.

 

[Mondio]

I mean it is a seriously valid outside the box concept of a question. Imagine a world where Gute adds a 1st rounder, re-sign Fackrell cheaper, Gary steps up into a larger role and Gute enters the draft with some serious Day 1 equity.

HOWEVER, the Smiths have literally changed the entire defensive feel and atmosphere of this locker room and team. It was incredible to see unfold and that gelling if it stays or dare we hope gets tighter in year two could be the special kicker to a SB run. While I love the outside the normal thought, and there is some validity to the process behind it...there is NO way anyone should do it.

if you're doling out cash to land Big Free Agents and cutting or trading in year 2 of the deal, you made one hell of a mistake. I wonder what it would cost to get rid of 1 or both of those guys this year?

 

[tynimiller]

if you're doling out cash to land Big Free Agents and cutting or trading in year 2 of the deal, you made one hell of a mistake. I wonder what it would cost to get rid of 1 or both of those guys this year?

Too much for me to even look up

 

[Mondio]

Too much for me to even look up

me too, that and i'm really lazy