Need dline, not more LBs

[GreenBaySlacker]

I swear. If gb doesn't get another big fast strong productive dlineman (or two) on the roster ... We will continue to get beat down when we play the great teams deep in the playoffs.
Every mock has us picking LB.....
Seems silly for so many people to be ripping on martinez. When he is by far the best Ilb we have had in dang near a decade. Imo... So is he worth what he will get? That is the real question. That's up to gute.

But to use our 1st rounder again on defense. Then pick another Ilb. Only to put a band-aid on the dline....
That's a great recipe to make your rookie Ilb look like crap. Imo. Similar to Martinez at times....

Clark needs to be moved to end. And a real good nose needs to be put into the equation. Poe is a possibility before it all works it's way out imo. Then we should add a dt style player in the 1st round too imo. Get a post Poe nose in the 4th too. Stack the dline deep and high .

 

[Dantés]

Both... they need both.

But they, and the majority of the league, are a 2 DL defense (excluding edge). They have Clark, who is a stud. They paid Lowry, who is solid, but not special by any means. Behind them, the rotational depth would be Lancaster, Adams, and Keke.

They can absolutely add more quality to that depth and rotate more. And I think they should. But you continue to think that they are or should be a 3 DL defense. They are not and should not be. That's not this league any more.

But that has nothing to do with Martinez not being good, and linebacker being a huge need. I'm a little confused when you say that they shouldn't draft "another" linebacker while ignoring DL. That seems to suggest that they have a habit of ignoring the line and draft lots of linebackers. Which isn't true at all. In the last 10 years, they've draft 6 DL in the top 100 and only 1 off-ball linebacker.

 

[gopkrs]

Agree we need D line. But I don't think Martinez is anywhere near as good as Slacker thinks. I think he is a liability. He has shown glimpses of good but in the end he does not tackle hard, he waits for the runner and he does not cover very well. I think a lot of people could do that. So we need a middle linebacker also. The first pick? I would say whoever Gute thinks is better: OT, ML, or DL. Or trade down. I would not want the BPA. It's tough because it would be nice to get a really good W/O. I'm just going nuts and bolts. Would not mess with TE no matter. A little off topic...sorry. But Clark to DE? That is a head scratcher. Or did Slacker mean W/O?

 

[AmishMafia]

I swear. If gb doesn't get another big fast strong productive dlineman (or two) on the roster ... We will continue to get beat down when we play the great teams deep in the playoffs.
Every mock has us picking LB.....
Seems silly for so many people to be ripping on martinez. When he is by far the best Ilb we have had in dang near a decade. Imo... So is he worth what he will get? That is the real question. That's up to gute.

But to use our 1st rounder again on defense. Then pick another Ilb. Only to put a band-aid on the dline....
That's a great recipe to make your rookie Ilb look like crap. Imo. Similar to Martinez at times....

Clark needs to be moved to end. And a real good nose needs to be put into the equation. Poe is a possibility before it all works it's way out imo. Then we should add a dt style player in the 1st round too imo. Get a post Poe nose in the 4th too. Stack the dline deep and high .

Dont let Martinez's tackle numbers fool you. Watch him play in isolation. Failure to fill holes, running out of plays, and as gopkrs says, waiting for the play to come to him. He was the weakest link in our NFC Champioship game defensive debacle. SF exploited him continuoisly.

BUT, we could also use another DE. I have more hope that Keke takes a step or Adam's finally comes around than Burks takes over.

ILB is our biggest need.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not proposing to keep Blake whatsoever, but it will be interesting to watch what he does next season with a new team, especially if he is playing behind a much better DL then he played behind in Green Bay. I do think he could be a better player, but will also have to correct some of the bad habits that he picked up in Green Bay. He spent most of his career in Green Bay with Perry on one side and Matthews on the other and nobody that outstanding playing the other ILB spot. For a 4th round pick and what he was playing with, I would say he did ok. Last year though, he should have been better with the Smith Brothers on each side and a better secondary behind him. Not even looking at stats, I would say last year was his worst in GB.

 

[Mondio]

He had a stretch later middle of season where I thought he might be acceptable and then he just reverted for the most part. I agree, this last season was not his best. I don't think he'll be any better anywhere else. Even when he's shooting gaps, if he's not untouched he's a non-factor most times. Wait for plays to come downfield and open up a lane for him to get to the ball carrier was his best play it seemed like.

I don't want to sound like he was terrible, he's ok, but I saw a thing he's looking for 10 million? I wouldn't give him half that and right now I'd rather we just moved on and swing again.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

I'm just not sure what to say when someone says we don't need ILB's. To me, this is the position most in need of a talent infusion. We literally have scraps playing at ILB and we were exposed in the post-season as a result.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm just not sure what to say when someone says we don't need ILB's. To me, this is the position most in need of a talent infusion. We literally have scraps playing at ILB and we were exposed in the post-season as a result.

and.....both starters (Martinez and Goodson) are most likely done in Green Bay.

 

[lambeaulambo]

the team needs both its true. to say lowry is ok is a big stretch, he is a good player to have when a starter needs a blow. Adams and Keke arent there, so there is 2 big needs and Lancaster needs to b cut. 2 athletic big men and a very good ilb and the d will show something.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I swear. If gb doesn't get another big fast strong productive dlineman (or two) on the roster ... We will continue to get beat down when we play the great teams deep in the playoffs.

That gets pretty expensive and there are other needs. What this team needs in particular, given the budget and the number of Day 1 and Day 2 draft picks is a guy who can defend the run in base defense. Lancaster had his moments but it is position that could stand an upgrade. That would not be all expensive and there may be a candidate down the board.

Getting a nose tackle and moving Clark to base DE in base would go some ways in getting where they need to be. Or a Wilkerson-type for base DE run defense, a guy who's good pass rush bonafides were in the rear view mirror but was pretty decent defending the run. Wilkerson was paid $4.5 mil for the one year; I doubt there's even that much available for a vet given other needs. I would not be shocked if a DL was picked in the 3rd. round to shore things up.

There is no question, however, that ILB is the bigger issue. With the roster as currently constituted, your starting ILBs are probably Burks and Summers. If you can't see that as a more acute issue I don't know what else I could say to convince you.

 

[HardRightEdge]

and.....both starters (Martinez and Goodson) are most likely done in Green Bay.

Eh, they might bring Goodson back for something like $1 mil as a 3rd. ILB. They paid him $720,000 last year, the vet minimums go up every year, and he has one more vested year on the salary scale.

Depending on the kinds of "starting" players in front of him, he might be a base defense/short yardage option.

I sure don't see any path to a pair of 3-down ILBs. We should be darn happy if one legit 3-downer is secured. Then you have two guys in rotation. I could see Goodson being one of them. Not optimal, but possible, and somewhat realistic.

 

[Mondio]

as of now, we know they're both not under contract for next season. I think there's a much higher chance Goodson is back than Martinez for the reasons mentioned above. He's not going to cost a lot and he's actually pretty decent at what he does in the run game. He's limited, but then his salary will be too so I think it's worth it for him.

 

[gopkrs]

On Clark to DE. I don't even know if he could play there. If he became the great sackmaster; then it would be a great move. But other that that, we already have two starters and hopefully Rashan gets better. Unless he could consistently demand double coverage from an OT and someone else...why would you move him?

 

[HardRightEdge]

There should not be any question that the highest priorities are RT (Bulaga or otherwise), a 3-down ILB, and a legit receiving weapon, a TE or WR, however acquired. If they were to release Linsley for cap savings as some have proposed, you can add an interior OL to the list, though I don't believe that's going to happen.

Nickle corner is vacant but at least there is a plausible projection, even if unproven, in Sullivan. He's a decent zone player at least so that's a start. Perhaps not optimal given the risk he might get blown up in man coverage, but at least he's plausible. I'd prefer Williams was around for another rodeo but resources are not unlimited. Maybe they can squeeze him in.

The D-Line is adequatly manned for at least the 2/3+ nickel downs, especially if Gary takes a step forward. I think you need to count on that for championship pretentions. a 30% snap count run stuffer would be helpful.

I don't know how anybody can see the 49ers throwing the ball 8 times while some no-name running back goes 140 yards before contact and not see that as aberation not to be repeated. If they beat the Packers next time it will be in some other way. That requires thinking about what those other ways may be and having the personnel to address it. The first time around it was throwing over the top. Go figure. Teams can rise and fall pretty quickly. Next year you may be worrying about some other team throwing it all over the ball yard.

There is no viable option on this roster currently at RT now that we've seen Turner for a year. He may end up there, but that would not be a happy circumstance. And Bakhtiari is in his contract year. There are no ILBs at all that you'd want on the field except for spot and situational play. Good offenses have a minimum of 3 legit weapons. The Packers have Jones, Adams, and uh, uh, uh. Lazard did some nice things but he's not a guy defenses will go out of their way to account for. Those are the priority needs where FA money of signficance and Day 1 and Day 2 picks need to be applied.

Balance, address the the most pronounced weaknesses, get some players out of the draft. Run the picket fence and don't get caught watching the paint dry. That'll do.

 

[mradtke66]

On Clark to DE. I don't even know if he could play there. If he became the great sackmaster; then it would be a great move. But other that that, we already have two starters and hopefully Rashan gets better. Unless he could consistently demand double coverage from an OT and someone else...why would you move him?

DE as in 3-4 DE, not 4-3 or 3-4 OLB. Not an edge rusher.

Clark to DE in base might mean lining up as a weakside, 3T defensive tackle. He'd probably do well there.

As a strong side, 5T end, meh. Not really the right kind of player.

 

[HardRightEdge]

On Clark to DE. I don't even know if he could play there. If he became the great sackmaster; then it would be a great move. But other that that, we already have two starters and hopefully Rashan gets better. Unless he could consistently demand double coverage from an OT and someone else...why would you move him?

There's an argument to made that he's a better fit for base DE than NT. Heck, he plays off the nose on 70+% of the snaps anyway in nickel and dime. He's surely athletic enough for the job. He plays both 1-gap and 2-gap on the nose; moving over to base DE should not be a stretch.

And frankly, if he doesn't have that positional flexibility to beat up on OG's and OTs instead of C's and OGs, do you really want to pay him all that money?

Frankly, he's not a dominant NT against the run in my view, good not great.

But I'm not adamant about moving him. There's way too much "adamant" in the air in these days on all manner of subjects. I'd be happy with a base DE who can defend the run better than Lancaster. On the other hand, if there's a good looking NT that falls to the right spot, I won't complain about that either.

I am kinda adamant, however, about not paying Clark $17 mil/year as some twitter pundit proposed. Maybe if he blew up guys with regularity after a move to DE I might change my mind.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Eh, they might bring Goodson back for something like $1 mil as a 3rd. ILB. They paid him $720,000 last year, the vet minimums go up every year, and he has one more vested year on the salary scale.

I thought that they would do the same with Antonio Morrison and the guy before him and the guy.....well you get the picture. Besides AJ Hawk, who was a serviceable ILB, but probably a bit of a disappointment for a #5 pick in the draft, the Packers have really kind of sucked at ILB for a long time. Offenses that are good at using the short middle of the field tend to light the Packers up in both the passing and running game. Really time to put an end to this. I'm keeping my eye on Schobert in Free Agency. Never thought I would say that, because while he was decent as a Badger, he never really impressed me like the Watt Brothers or even Vince Biegel, who was a flop with the Packers. From what I have read, Schobert has really developed his game in Cleveland. I think he would be a cheaper option than Littleton and might give us a decent field general for a number of years. Joe is a quiet and pretty shy Wisconsin kid, he and his wife Megan are about to have their first baby and I can see him wanting to get back to his Wisconsin Roots.

 

[gopkrs]

I'm thinking that with the players that we have, we are probably better off not moving Clark around too much. Rather, we need two decent D Tackles and the inside linebacker. Though if we got a very good DT; I could see going a traditional 4-3 with the Jones Bros. as DEs and mixing in Rashan hopefully.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I thought that they would do the same with Antonio Morrison and the guy before him and the guy.....well you get the picture. Besides AJ Hawk, who was a serviceable ILB, but probably a bit of a disappointment for a #5 pick in the draft, the Packers have really kind of sucked at ILB for a long time. Offenses that are good at using the short middle of the field tend to light the Packers up in both the passing and running game. Really time to put an end to this. I'm keeping my eye on Schobert in Free Agency. Never thought I would say that, because while he was decent as a Badger, he never really impressed me like the Watt Brothers or even Vince Biegel, who was a flop with the Packers. From what I have read, Schobert has really developed his game in Cleveland. I think he would be a cheaper option than Littleton and might give us a decent field general for a number of years. Joe is a quiet and pretty shy Wisconsin kid, he and his wife Megan are about to have their first baby and I can see him wanting to get back to his Wisconsin Roots.

Having a baby would not be high on my list of qualifications, but your point is taken and is not inconsistent with what I said.

With or without a Shobert or a Littleton or a Queen or a Murray or fill in the blank, a rotational base ILB is still something you would need, along with a coverage specialist with at least some nuts to defend the run, whether you call him a hybrid ILB or box safety or whatever, in the absence of a second 3-down player who will almost certainly be absent.

$1 mil for that guy is not much at all; there will probably be somebody on this roster getting paid that much for primarily special teams coverage and blocking. Drafting that second LB for that role...umm...we seem to be running out of draft picks. The Packers couldn't get that right with even a 3rd. rounder, and it proves to be a position where the college ball transition proves difficult.

 

[Dantés]

All the above being said regarding ILB being a bigger need than iDL, it would still be wise to add along the defensive line.

I think that their biggest need there is a disruptive, upfield player, however @GleefulGary made the point that it would be a lot more cost effective to sign a plugger and allow Clark to be that disruptor, especially when they go to three man fronts.

Some potential cost effective options include Michael Pierce (BAL), Andrew Billings (CIN), John Jenkins (MIA), Tyeler Davison (ATL), Damon Harrison (DET), A'Shawn Robinson (DET).

 

[Dantés]

I'm not proposing to keep Blake whatsoever, but it will be interesting to watch what he does next season with a new team, especially if he is playing behind a much better DL then he played behind in Green Bay. I do think he could be a better player, but will also have to correct some of the bad habits that he picked up in Green Bay. He spent most of his career in Green Bay with Perry on one side and Matthews on the other and nobody that outstanding playing the other ILB spot. For a 4th round pick and what he was playing with, I would say he did ok. Last year though, he should have been better with the Smith Brothers on each side and a better secondary behind him. Not even looking at stats, I would say last year was his worst in GB.

With the exception of the first half of 2019, when Clark was playing hurt, I think Martinez played behind a better defensive line in Green Bay that he's likely to see in his next stop.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

With the exception of the first half of 2019, when Clark was playing hurt, I think Martinez played behind a better defensive line in Green Bay that he's likely to see in his next stop.

Really? Your crystal ball is a lot better than mine. I guess it will depend on where his next stop is and I won't pretend to know what teams are looking at him or what their D-Line situation is. I don't watch a lot of other teams closely enough to know their personnel. Just off the cuff, I was more impressed by some of the D-lines that the Packers faced VS our own. Clark is a really good player, when healthy. Lowery is average at best IMO and it seems like the 3rd guy is what everyone is saying we need to draft. So, I guess we will see where Martinez ends up and who is playing in front of him, as well as next to him at Will, which I also think didn't help what he did or didn't do in Green Bay.

 

[Dantés]

Really? Your crystal ball is a lot better than mine. I guess it will depend on where his next stop is and I won't pretend to know what teams are looking at him or what their D-Line situation is. I don't watch a lot of other teams closely enough to know their personnel. Just off the cuff, I was more impressed by some of the D-lines that the Packers faced VS our own. Clark is a really good player, when healthy. Lowery is average at best IMO and it seems like the 3rd guy is what everyone is saying we need to draft. So, I guess we will see where Martinez ends up and who is playing in front of him, as well as next to him at Will, which I also think didn't help what he did or didn't do in Green Bay.

As far as keeping the 2nd level clean, it's going to be pretty tough to beat what he had when Clark and a healthy Daniels were sharing the field.

Now granted, Daniels wasn't healthy for much of 2018, and Clark was playing hurt for half of 2019, but the majority of Martinez's time in Green Bay, I think he pretty much had it made.

 

[Dblbogey]

I swear. If gb doesn't get another big fast strong productive dlineman (or two) on the roster ... We will continue to get beat down when we play the great teams deep in the playoffs.
Every mock has us picking LB.....
Seems silly for so many people to be ripping on martinez. When he is by far the best Ilb we have had in dang near a decade. Imo... So is he worth what he will get? That is the real question. That's up to gute.

But to use our 1st rounder again on defense. Then pick another Ilb. Only to put a band-aid on the dline....
That's a great recipe to make your rookie Ilb look like crap. Imo. Similar to Martinez at times....

Clark needs to be moved to end. And a real good nose needs to be put into the equation. Poe is a possibility before it all works it's way out imo. Then we should add a dt style player in the 1st round too imo. Get a post Poe nose in the 4th too. Stack the dline deep and high .

Martinez gets caught up in the trash, doesn't read and react well, and is terrible in pass coverage. We need an upgrade at ILB, but shouldn't reach for one at #30 pick with so many quality wr's available. I agree, we need help for Clark as well. Unfortunately, we also need 2 wr's, 2 OL if Bulaga leaves, another cornerback, and perhaps a tight end, and we've soon got to pay Clark, Bahktiari, and A Jones. We won't be able to fill all the holes we'd like to.

 

[OldSchool101]

Blake Martinez has been playing with a largely inferior “Run Stop” DL. I’m not saying it was a bad move shoring up S and OLB in 2019, but that was likely just the first step in a 2 pronged attack. There’s zero chance the FO didn’t see what we saw in the NFC game. It was humiliating enough to leave mental scars. There’s also zero chance that GB does not address both LB and DL in some capacity.

That said, Blake Martinez’ known lack of speed (4.71X40) was exposed. He’s only as good on that assembly line as the man before him. He’s not fast enough to make OL miss and he’s too slow to get tangled up in a block and still keep his angle (which he uses along with his awareness and acumen to make up for lack of speed). This notion that he has poor instincts is not accurate. It’s also not consistent with him leading the league in tackles.
It’s my opinion that he can still excel if he has more beef in front of him and drops into only short zone pass coverage. Blake has no business backing up past 10 yards from the LOS etc.

I’m also not opposed to keeping Blake. But it MUST only be if there is a concerted effort to compliment that move with several others. It would be nice to keep him and then go after his counterpart on the other side that is his inverse. That said, GB must go after a DL either in FA or relatively early in this draft or they will continue to get punished by the opposing running game. They allowed Big Mike to walk, but then forgot to emphasize his replacement and that left a crater at the LOS. So much so.. that I even had to switch my Avatar from Daniels to a guy getting 20% of the D snaps.