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Mike Mayock on the Lions game

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by longtimefan, Sep 23, 2014.

  1. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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  2. brandon2348

    brandon2348 GO PACK GO!

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    Yeah. Those two plays showed Richard Rodgers can't "in-line block" at this stage in his career. That was the concern of him coming out of college. They really need to go to a "zone blocking scheme" up front to try to get the running backs some space.

    We shouldn't be at week 4 figuring this stuff out with the season getting close to on the line.
     
  3. PackerFanLV

    PackerFanLV Cheesehead

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    also on the pass play quarless was wide open on the out route but rodgers didn't see him i guess, but rodgers had time
     
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  4. brandon2348

    brandon2348 GO PACK GO!

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    I know and Mayock is saying nobody is open.
     
  5. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I just finished watching the game replay with the opportunity to run replays multiple times.

    Mayock has it exactly right. The key to this game was our O-Line getting beat like a rug. Besides Lacy getting dumped for the safety on a botched pull by Lang, there were several pulling run plays where Detroit easily blew up them up. I noted one Lacy pitch where both Bulaga on the DE and Lang pulling into second level both whiffed.

    If McCarthy wants to call out Lacy for the fumble, fine. But to make the blanket statement "he needs to play better" overlooks the obvious cause. On the bright side, our man-up zone blocking runs between the tackles fared pretty well. Poor planning and play calling in the run game gets a -1.

    Mayock touched on the second issue...Detroit able to bring consistent pressure with 4 men.

    As far as Rodgers goes, I counted 2 passes I would categorize as "innacurate", while counting at least 4 drops...maybe more since it is difficult to determine in some cases if the ball was defended. He put it where it needed to be, but the job gets difficult against 7 men in zone.

    By the way, I doubt Levy had the stats to be named Defensive Player of the Week (they like to give that to guys with sacks and INTs), but he played one heck of a game.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
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  6. brandon2348

    brandon2348 GO PACK GO!

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    Yes. Exactly. The power draw trap and sweep plays were a disaster and yet McCarthy kept going to them like he had to prove they could work. Zone blocking up front is what this O-line is best suited for. And yes, keep it between the tackles. Detroit is too fast up front to flank them outside. Wasted plays. Give the running backs some space to hit creases and run "down hill". Even if they only get a 3-4 yards and don't get the big home run plays on the ground it's better then losing yardage and wasting downs and killing drives.
     
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  7. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Rodgers is going through his progression right-to-left. As he scans to the middle of the field he sees Lang flat on is arse and Suh staring him the face. He looks to escape right and there's Fairly staring him in the face. The window to hit Quarless is open for a couple tenths of a second as the speedy Levy is closing on him. You cannot expect a cross field throw to the 3rd. guy in the progression under this kind of rush.
     
  8. brandon2348

    brandon2348 GO PACK GO!

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    I've seen Rodgers make that throw.
     
  9. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Sure...if the opening happens to sync with the progression which takes a little more time than what we saw there. I think his move right into Fairly as Lang fell down was to get out in some space to target the crossing receiver from the left. When the blocking is bad you blame the blocking.

    The key issue here is we did not run the ball enough between the tackles and make the front 4 respect the run, consequently we couldn't get Rodgers his bread and butter...play action.

    If I were to single out one individual for this loss it would be Campen. And Lang had a pretty dreadful game, with Bulaga not much better. At least Bulaga has an excuse, such as he probably shouldn't be on the field to begin with.

    I have seen cases in past years where Rodgers passes up a wide open Finley crossing right in front of his face 10 yards down the field in order to take a shot. I would criticize that decision at the time but nobody would care because we won. This particular play is not something one can expect to be made.

    If I were to single out one individual for this loss it would be Campen.

    By the way, does everybody believe the 4th. and 5 to Nelson in the end zone wasn't dropped? I've seen Nelson make that catch before. Where's the critique of that?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014
  10. brandon2348

    brandon2348 GO PACK GO!

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    Yeah Jordy does and I have seen Rodgers throw that one better too. I don't think the game should of came down to that play though. Not the way our defense played. McCarthy called a horrible game IMO. Yeah the blocking was bad and there is limitations to what we could of done but isn't that his job to form a game plan and make adjustments to that as the game plays out?

    I am starting to get frustrated because this started in Seattle when he played half the field and avoided there right side because of Sherman. I am not saying we should be 3-0 but I think he has "stubbornly and conservatively" coached this team to 1-2. Now we kind of have a must win game against Chicago.
     
  11. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    That was a pretty darn good throw. It was out in front of the trailing Levy and low enough so as not be tipped by the crossing safety.

    McCarthy's play calling is another one of those zen-like "your greatest strength is your greatest weakness" things. When you're as obsessed with process, planning and detail as he is it's hard for him to go away from the plan when it isn't working. Nobody will ever call him creative or on-the-fly inventive.

    The defense played OK, certainly good enough to win the game. Clearly the strength is in the secondary coverage. While they kept Detroit out of the end zone, they they did not have much trouble moving the ball. I believe we lack an enforcer at the ILB position and don't have sufficient speed in the OLBs to make these 2-5 and 4-3 looks work as they should.
     
  12. brandon2348

    brandon2348 GO PACK GO!

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    Enforcer at ILB. YES. I've already been eyeballing the ones coming out. I like Denzel Perryman out of Miami. He looks like a 3 down ILB to me and an "Enforcer".
     
  13. Einstein McFly

    Einstein McFly Cheesehead

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    The line gave Rodgers enough time for QUICK THROWS that would move the chains and keep the dline honest in the run game. The lions have a strong dline; everybody knows that. ANY offensive line is rolling the dice if they want to try to throw deep balls against three legit non-bust top ten picks on the dline. Our oline will never be so good that Rodgers will have all day to sit back against the lions. What we need is for Rodgers and McCarthy to do the boring stuff of a little slant here and a screen there and then a zone run and rinse and repeat and then, maybe when we're moving the ball and have the defense guessing a bit we can try a deep ball. I always hated how Favre would just wing the damned ball around and now Rodgers won't take the short throw or throw the damned thing away. If he plays smart and takes incompletions instead of sacks the whole game would have gone better and the oline wouldn't have looked so bad. When you take a sack and it's thrid and long then you're giving the defense a gift because then they know what's coming and they're really, really good at rushing with just four.
     
  14. brandon2348

    brandon2348 GO PACK GO!

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    Yep, get a little 4-5 yard pass completion on 1st down. Then a zone run between the tackles for a few which in the worse case gets a a yard or two but little risk of losing yardage and actually gives Lacy a chance to break a tackle and get more yards opposed to him having to break 3 tackles just to get back to the LOS. Then you got a 3rd and 2-3 situation which is much more manageable and many more options. Convert those and Lions get out of there "2 deep shell".

    It's like there making it harder on themselves then it has to be. Like there over-thinking it or something. I'm not buying this "tip your hat to the Lions for just out-playing us". We didn't make it any harder for em, that's for sure.
     
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  15. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Sorry, but that wasn´t a good throw by Rodgers, he threw it behind Nelson. Neither Levy nor Quin (the crossing safety) would have had any chance to make a play on the ball if Rodgers would have hit Nelson in stride.
     
  16. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    19 of the 27 passes Rodgers threw were for less than 10 yards, so it´s not that they tried to throw the deep ball on every single pass play.
     
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  17. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    Where have the wr screen pass plays been at? Those work really well for us where the Wrs run out and block and Rodgers hits one. It's usually good for about 5 yds easily. Those short passing plays are a staple of the WC offense and actually open it up deep. The double move Jordy scored on against the Jets was set up because they connected a few times on that quick comeback route Rodgers throws so well. Also where are the sweeps to Cobb? If you're going to toss it to The rbs who got 0 yds on that play mise well mix it up. Cobb can actually throw on that same play. I could only imagine what this offense would look like if Chip Kelly was our OC or even Darryl Bevel in Seattle
     
  18. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    I agree with this statement, and it's the reason that McCarthy goaded Lacy in the media. After the fumble, Starks was in the game which is typical MM. You fumble, you sit. I was shocked to see Lacy back in the game on the same series. I've been a big Starks fan. His only problem has been injuries but he's looked phenomenal since Lacy was drafted. McCarthy needs to stick with the hot hand at RB. Rookie of the Year shouldn't guarantee you anything.

    We talked about the O-line before the game. A 2nd year guy at LT, a true rookie at center, and essentially a rookie at RT in Sherrod. Bulaga game back but wasn't moving 100%. Against arguably the best DL in the NFL, there is a very good reason that both the running game struggled and Rodgers didn't have much time.
     
  19. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    McCarthy wants his QBs to get rid of the ball within 2.5 seconds, Rodgers had 2.69 seconds on average to throw vs. the Lions, so he should have had enough time to find open receivers.
     
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  20. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    That's the first thing I noticed too. It looked like even the WR lined up outside of Quarless who ran an "in" route had enough leverage to be thrown the ball although we don't see how that developed. The EZ shot shows Rodgers looked to his right first so by the time he looked left we don't see what was happening on that side - my guess is Quarless would have still been open. Starks misses the chip block and he was open but by then Rodgers was concerned with the rush.

    The big problem IMO is the Packers OL. If any defense can put just 6 guys in the box and stop the run while getting good pressure rushing just 4 that puts too much pressure on the passing offense. I don't know how many times Rodgers audibled to a run, but I'll bet he, and many other QBs, are taught with just 6 in the box that's usually a good call on average down & distance plays. If a team dares you to run by overloading against the pass and you can't run...

    If you would have told me this was going to happen early this year I would have guessed it must be the rookie OC (either one) causing most of the problems on the OL but that hasn't been the case. Against the Lions if it wasn't the OC, I'd have guessed it must have been Bakhtiari, who got badly schooled last Thanksgiving in Detroit. But after a bad game against the Jets, this is what McGinn said in his review of the game, "Not only did Bakhtiari set his anchor, he finished run blocks better than any of the linemen." Instead it's the experienced OGs who have screwed up on crucial plays, and they're supposed to be the best O linemen (with Bulaga returning from injury). On the sack in question, Lang couldn't handle a simple stunt and that's the second time in two weeks he had that problem.

    Richard Rodgers is in over his head blocking in the NFL. I believe his best asset is having great hands but I don't remember him being thrown a catchable ball. If they're going to have a TE who struggles blocking, they should at least get the benefit of his receiving skills. Otherwise they may as well line up a tackle eligible in the TE spot. Who would have thought they'd miss Finley's blocking ability?
    And yet against a bad secondary, IMO it's fair to say receivers generally weren't getting much, if any, separation. Part of that is due to the Lions getting pressure with four, and part is due to for example Cobb having, by his own admission, an embarrassing game. And he was often lined up against players he should be able to dominate.
     
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  21. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Yeah, Cobb had a disappointing game. Maybe McCarthy should have continue to go with Nelson in the slot after the TD drive as it worked pretty well with Cobb on the bench.
     
  22. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I suspect those stats measure time from snap to release. When a QB is moving around in and out of the pocket, the numbers go up. If the stop watch was measuring time from snap to moving off the spot, I don't think you'll get to 2.5. Instances of a clean, uncollapsed pocket were rare indeed.
     
  23. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Correct. The notion he was consistently passing up the high probability throw for the deep ball simply is not the case.
     
  24. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Right...Starks between the tackles in man up zone blocking. And he wasn't the only guy getting 5-10 yards on those runs. Lacy had a couple as well. The pulling blocks that looked so good in preseason were pretty dreadful.
     
  25. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Yeah, PFF actually measures time to attempt from the snap until the release.
     

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