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McCarthy and Joe Philbin

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by 12theTruth, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    Running from a pro style formation to the edge is a completely different thing than a short yardage play against a relatively stacked line. History for the most part has shown the Packers are very poor at getting a yard up the gut on a short yardage play but that is what McCarthy so stubbornly tried yet again. That in my estimation is the 'root cause' for the unsuccessful play and in turn deserves more blame then would normally for the end result of the fumble.

    I fully expect the Packers to get stuffed each and every time on that time of play judging my their past history of success. I can't envision how one could come to a different conclusion.
     
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  2. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    I understand you didn't like the play. I wasn't a huge fan of it myself.
    This pretty much gets at the heart of our quibbling. I distinguish between (1) the play call and (2) the fumble. While I'm happy to criticize McCarthy for the flawed play call, the fumble simply comes down to Franklin not securing the ball.

    What if Franklin fumbles after converting the first down?

    Basically, I fail to understand how making a poor play call on 4th and inches makes McCarthy responsible for a fumble that should never occur under any circumstances. There's a leap in your logic that makes scapegoating MM for everything that happened on that play a bit silly.

    You can have the final word on the matter if you like.
     
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  3. weeds

    weeds Cheesehead

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    At one time, my hair was as curly as Mike Hunt's. Ate my bread crusts as a kid.

    Anyway, who does the play calling in Miami? Philbin or Mike Sherman?
     
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  4. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    No way I said that. I think you quoted the wrong person. LOL

    Not sure on the play calling.
     
  5. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    I understand what you are saying BUT the fumble wouldn't have happened if it weren't for McCarthy and a rookie had a fumble. Montee Ball already laid it on the ground once or twice with the Broncos. It is an entire scenario that McCarthy that seen play out over and over and over again yet he still makes THAT call. Whereas sure the player should hold on to the ball just as Rodgers probably should have made a tackle shortly thereafter.

    Franklin is a rookie, McCarthy should know better by now yet his stubbornness endures.

    In the end I just feel McCarthy's play call precipitated a bad sequence of events but the initial moment that being the play call trumped the fault of the events which followed it.

    And just to make it clear that yes Franklin deserves criticism for fumbling the ball but McCarthy deserves more. Not for Franklin's fumbling of the ball, but for placing him in that untenable situation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2013
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  6. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    The Packers success has caused a “brain drain”. In addition to losing Philbin, they’ve lost Dorsey, McKenzie, Schneider in their personnel department, and perhaps a couple of others I’m forgetting. As I’ve posted before, it’s difficult for outsiders like us fans to know the impact of any person’s departure. Regarding the loss of Philbin specifically it no doubt has had an impact, but IMO the adjustments defenses in the league made after the 2011 season has had a greater impact (but again, it’s hard to know for sure). With few exceptions, defenses have played two deep safeties – like the Tampa two or a version thereof - in an attempt to take away the long ball that worked so well for the Packers in 2011. (BTW, I remember being amazed – and delighted - at Houston’s DC stubbornly sticking to his one deep safety scheme.)

    One of the ways to counter that adjustment is having a talented TE to exploit the middle of the field in front of the safeties and cause matchup nightmares for the LBs. And LB just happens to be the weakest part of the CIN D. That’s why Finley’s early injury and the inability of any other TE to step up against the Bengals really affected the Packers game plan.

    As to the fourth down call IMO assigning 80% of the blame to McCarthy is ridiculous. If McCarthy had called for a pass in that situation and it failed, imagine the second guessing – ‘Franklin had been kill’n em, just hand it off to him!’ or ‘If you can’t make a foot by running the ball…' Etcetera. McCarthy would have been accused of stubbornly refusing to the run the ball. No, the worst McCarthy could have reasonably expected was turning the ball over to the Bengals at about their 30 yard line. There was no reason to anticipate Franklin would fumble the ball, and absolutely no reason to think it would have ended up a TD for the Bengals.
    As for the discussion of McCarthy’s play calling, even with the adjustments by league defenses last year and the absence of Philbin, the Packers finished 5th in league scoring last season. BTW, I would have preferred that bootleg pass after a fake to Franklin up the middle giving Rodgers the option to run for the first down. But that play, like every other play, isn’t fool proof.
    Please let us know what information/evidence you have to support this claim. Keep in mind that 5th place finish in league scoring last season sans Philbin was better than the Philbin/McCarthy average.
    I think you’re the one who should look at it again. No question the blocking on the OL broke down but did or did not Franklin leap near the LOS in an attempt to make the first down? It looked to me like that was when the fumble occurred. If he were met “less than a fraction of a second” (IOW “instantaneously”) after receiving the ball how could he have jumped – he wouldn’t have been able to take a step unmolested, let alone leap.
     
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  7. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    I know what you are all thinking. 'I wish the Amish Mafia would end all this arguing and explain what the truth is.'

    Okay, here goes:

    - It was a bad call on McCarthy's part
    - Cincy has a big line and our OL is not the road grader sort. The plan was to cut down (I suspect) the DL so that Franklin could leap over. It was too risky, however, and went against the strength of the Bengals.
    - The fumble was Franklin's fault. It's not McCarthy's fault - if he doesn't make it and fumbles it doesn't matter - Cincy gets the ball anyway. Should he have anticipated the return for a TD? No.
    - The play call should have been from a formation with 2 WRs wide 2 TEs in close and Franklin alone. Rodgers pitches ball and Franklin runs wide. A guard and opposite TE pull. Franklin was amazing all game at picking up creases and darting through. I'm sure he would have found a yard or two and who knows, when the D is up close like that, the opportunity for breaking a big one is there.
     
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  8. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Nice opening, AmishMafia! If McCarthy had called the play you suggested and Franklin fumbled, etc., the second guessing would be: Never go wide when you need less than a yard!! Pound it up the middle!!
     
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  9. Bus Cook

    Bus Cook You're never alone with a schizophrenic

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    Sorry, but Bus knows best. This was pure genius from MM (you rarely hear that from me), it was in fact a planned fumble, the old fumblerooski. AR was supposed to pick it up and run for the easy 1st down or more. This is all on AR. He lost the game for us 100%.
     
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  10. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    No second guessing here. I yelled wtf when the play ran live. You can make light of it now as a joke which it was or accept the fact it was a dumb *** play call in retrospect.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
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  11. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    We'll just agree to disagree ThxJack. I many times think your responses are ridiculous as well. Have a nice day! :)
     
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  12. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    You and McCarthy two peas in a pod. LOL
     
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  13. Bus Cook

    Bus Cook You're never alone with a schizophrenic

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    In his presser MM would have said that he'd run the same play again, even if he knew the outcome would be the same.
     
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  14. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    It’s fine to “agree to disagree” about opinions but not about facts and in one case you pretend to know a fact you can’t know (or tell us how you do know Philbin knows the offense better than McCarthy) and in another you are just plain wrong: I went back and looked at the fumble play again. The ball was spotted on about the Bengals’ 29 ½ yard line. Franklin lined up with his heels on the 35 yard line. He takes two steps forward and receives the ball his right foot is on the 33 yard line. He then takes two more steps – no Bengal touches him or is close to him until his right foot is between the 30 and 31 yard line when he begins his jump. A Bengal reaches in with his left hand and knocks the ball loose at about the 30 yard line.

    So this response to jaybadger82:
    Is complete bullsh!t. The only truth included in what you posted is Franklin is a rookie. And you have the gall to tell jaybadger82 to watch it again – did you even watch it the first time?

    BTW, I assume McCarthy and I are alike (peas in a pod) in this way and unlike you: We both look at facts.

    Oh ya, have a nice day!:)
     
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  15. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Rodgers ties a team record for offense 2 games ago and people are questioning the offense? wow.
     
  16. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    It's been pretty much of a majority opinion that McCarthy botched that 4th down play call. For times during the game against the Bengals, the Packers offense was pretty productive. They did endure some difficulties in converting turnovers into TD's and a less than Super effort by Rodgers left them short of getting the W.

    What do you want people to say! Anyone with objectivity would have to admit the offense had a substandard game against the Bengals. And if you go back to the week before I was singing the praises of the offense as they really were that awesome albeit against a not so good Redskins defense.
     
  17. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    Less than a fraction of a second can technically be 999 milliseconds or less. The POINT is Franklin didn't have much of a chance and didn't have anything in the way of real football time to make a maneuver as the Bengals had already whipped our lineman and were honing in on Franklin. Thanks to your kindred spirit Mike McCarthy.

    Have anything else you'd like to quibble with ?
     
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  18. buggybill2003

    buggybill2003 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    You have definate lack of confidence issues AM.......lol
     
  19. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    The Redskin defense is ranked next to last in the league.
     
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  20. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    And thanks to Rodgers and company - we helped put them there!
     
  21. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    So did the Eagles and so did the Lions. Are you saying they don't have a terrible defense????

    Look it is no better to use the Redskin game as a barometer than it is to use the Bengals game as one (for different reasons) as some have.
     
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  22. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Franklin had time (two steps) to cut in either direction rather than jump - that is usually ill-advised on short yardage but he had the time to do it. But the point is you really don’t care much about supporting your argument with facts. For example in our back and forth, you still haven’t attempted to support what you posted about Philbin knowing the offense better than McCarthy. How ‘bout it? You were the one that asserted it, how about something to back it up? And on the fumble play obviously the OL didn’t do its job but you apparently feel the need to exaggerate it to make it sound like two Bengals were two yards deep into the Packers backfield on that play and that just isn’t true. It’s no big deal but ignoring facts and making sh!t up does lead to making ridiculous statements about McCarthy being 80% responsible for Franklin fumbling the ball.
     
  23. 12theTruth

    12theTruth Guest

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    Okey Dokey there Jacko.

    It appears Mike McCarthy below provides more than enough anecdotal evidence below to sway by thinking in regards to Joe Philbin and his ability to run the very same offense that McCarthy employs.

    A conference call with Mike McCarthy is highlighted hear upon the hiring of Joe Philbin as Miami's head coach.

    http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thed...ch-mike-mccarthy-gives-joe-philbin-thumbs-up/

    Some interesting commentary I have provided for you below.

    McCarthy said having most pieces of a coaching staff together for the past six years has eased the game-planning process, but that Philbin “was the guy I directly talked to ninety, ninety-five percent of the time” during games

    McCarthy went on with more positives about Philbin - “After the ’08 season, I made changes on the defensive staff, and with my particular job responsibility being so much involved in the offense and not as involved with the defense, I thought about taking a step back and just being a pure head coach and overseeing all three phases, and with that I was going to give the playcalling to Joe Philbin, which I wouldn’t have even thought twice about"

    McCarthy described his former offensive coordinator as “extremely organized” and “very detailed,” and said Philbin was the guy at the other end of the headset more than 90 percent of the time when he communicated with his assistants in the press box during games



    Imagine that Jack. McCarthy being as stubborn as he is feeling comfortable enough to give Joe Philbin the reigns to call plays and do it with only one thought- no second guessing on this one.

    This tells me that Joe Philbin is at, near, or could even be slightly more adept at running the system as McCarthy. Maybe his point of emphasis would be on 3rd and 4th and short situations needing a yard. Any more quibbles?

    Time to move on to the Lions. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2013
  24. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Okey Dokey there anything but the truth. What all that means is Philbin was second in command to McCarthy on offense and BTW McCarthy never did give the play calling duties to Philbin.

    But it is time to move on to the Lions - maybe you can stick to facts for this game...
     
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  25. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    The 4th down call would have been fine with me if Kuhn had been the back. We actually have a very good success rate on 3rd and short with Kuhn. Franklin maybe could have been used in a play action pass, but he's not a banger up the middle.
     
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