Josh Jones at ILB?

GreenBaySlacker

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Will you ever realize that having three 3-4 defensive linemen is a terrible scheme to defend the pass, especially with opponents lining up with at least three receivers most of the time??? Probably not.
3 dline men. Two olbs. A ilb who is actually a safety. And a bigger, stronger, faster cb group to be more physical. Allowing the rush to get to the qb... so Basicly 5 rushers and 6 secondary, who are better suited to help against the run.
 

RRyder

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3 dline men. Two olbs. A ilb who is actually a safety. And a bigger, stronger, faster cb group to be more physical. Allowing the rush to get to the qb... so Basicly 5 rushers and 6 secondary, who are better suited to help against the run.

It's been stated before. Rushing 5 guys every play is a BAD idea. The fact that you continue to think that blitzing every play would be a good idea is astounding
 
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3 dline men. Two olbs. A ilb who is actually a safety. And a bigger, stronger, faster cb group to be more physical. Allowing the rush to get to the qb... so Basicly 5 rushers and 6 secondary, who are better suited to help against the run.

Aside of you continuing to ignore that blitzing on every passing play is a terrible idea the run defense doesn't improve by having six defensive backs on the field.
 

rodell330

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To be fair, Rollins played significantly better during his rookie season.

I often hear this about Rollins...but we have to keep in mind he was playing predominantly as the 3rd mostly 4th corner. So when people say that it doesn't do much for me, especially seeing how he stunk it up as the #2 corner.
 
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I often hear this about Rollins...but we have to keep in mind he was playing predominantly as the 3rd mostly 4th corner. So when people say that it doesn't do much for me, especially seeing how he stunk it up as the #2 corner.

I'm fine with Rollins lining up in the slot as the nickel or dime cornerback but he shouldn't be matched up against top receivers on the perimeter.
 

jakemillar

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I think Josh Jones fits the mold of the new hybrid defenders that are going to start taking over the NFL.

I have full confidence in Capers that he will use his skills appropriately. Based on early reports & his college film, he just might be a play maker for the defense.

Capers gets a real bad rap from Packers fans but I think what's quickly glossed over is the lack of play makers he's truly had to work with. The perennially great defenses currently in the NFL (Seattle, Carolina, Denver, Baltimore sans 2016, Pittsburgh etc.) all have bonafide stars throughout the defense. IMO Green Bay has 1 in Clinton-Dix. He's a great defensive mind with 35+ years of football knowledge at the pro level. If you give him the tools, I'm certain he will put a good product on the field, and IMO Josh Jones will be part of that.
 
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I think Josh Jones fits the mold of the new hybrid defenders that are going to start taking over the NFL.

I have full confidence in Capers that he will use his skills appropriately. Based on early reports & his college film, he just might be a play maker for the defense.

Capers gets a real bad rap from Packers fans but I think what's quickly glossed over is the lack of play makers he's truly had to work with. The perennially great defenses currently in the NFL (Seattle, Carolina, Denver, Baltimore sans 2016, Pittsburgh etc.) all have bonafide stars throughout the defense. IMO Green Bay has 1 in Clinton-Dix. He's a great defensive mind with 35+ years of football knowledge at the pro level. If you give him the tools, I'm certain he will put a good product on the field, and IMO Josh Jones will be part of that.

It's extremely tough to evaluate if Capers is to blame for the shortcomings of the defense over the past six years or a lack of talent has led to the unit struggling.

While Clinton- Dix has performed at a pretty good level so far I don't consider him a bonafide star. It should be possible to build a decent defense around Daniels, Matthews, Perry, Burnett and him though.
 

gbgary

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i wouldn't be surprised if jones ends up one of the number 1's someday soon with his height, speed, and play-making sense. they'll forget this ilb, in nickle and dime, experiment.
 

n4t

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It's extremely tough to evaluate if Capers is to blame for the shortcomings of the defense over the past six years or a lack of talent has led to the unit struggling.

I don't believe that for a second.

For example; We have never had 3 starting quality DL, except for around 2010 when we had 2 NTs in the starting lineup and I am not sure that counts. We have never had, IMO, an actual 5 tech. We have also rarely been able to field 2 health, starting caliber OLBs at the same time. At times we have not been able to field a starting Safety at all, and only recently do we have a pair of them.

OTOH Capers is well known around the league as a good DC, and even though you can't do it in the NFL he has managed to turn chicken gunk into chicken salad for a limited time here and there.

Cullen Jenkins was the best DL Capers ever had at GB. That say much?

GB has $$ priorities on the other side of the ball. It's clear their commitment to defense is limited. Also too many misses on the acquisitions they do make. It doesn't take many mistakes (Justin Harrell, Jerel Worthy) when you're half-assing it and drafting 28th.
 

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I don't believe that for a second.

For example; We have never had 3 starting quality DL, except for around 2010 when we had 2 NTs in the starting lineup and I am not sure that counts. We have never had, IMO, an actual 5 tech. We have also rarely been able to field 2 health, starting caliber OLBs at the same time. At times we have not been able to field a starting Safety at all, and only recently do we have a pair of them.

OTOH Capers is well known around the league as a good DC, and even though you can't do it in the NFL he has managed to turn chicken gunk into chicken salad for a limited time here and there.

Cullen Jenkins was the best DL Capers ever had at GB. That say much?

GB has $$ priorities on the other side of the ball. It's clear their commitment to defense is limited. Also too many misses on the acquisitions they do make. It doesn't take many mistakes (Justin Harrell, Jerel Worthy) when you're half-assing it and drafting 28th.
Chicken ot the egg?

Maybe the reason Capers hasnt had a great DL is because he is a bad coach. Maybe he has the talent but just doesnt develop or utilize it at maximum effectiveness. If you dont develop, motivate, and game plan your players, that can look like a lack of talent.

Capers has a reputation as a good coach but he also has a reputation for tanking a defense. The pattern is repeated in every DC job he had. So good in year 1. Do great in year 2. Get worse every year after that.

There is no reason to think a front office is only good at evaluating one side of the ball. Clearly an emphasis has been placed on the defense and still they remain mediocre. My eyeball test says that our game plans are rarely creative and play with calls are predictable. I dont see in-game adjustments and I dont know the last time is was impressed by the defensive coaching. Actually I do. Packers vrs seahawks in NFCCG. Brilliant job defensively coached. But that seems the exception, not the rule.
 
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I don't believe that for a second.

For example; We have never had 3 starting quality DL, except for around 2010 when we had 2 NTs in the starting lineup and I am not sure that counts. We have never had, IMO, an actual 5 tech. We have also rarely been able to field 2 health, starting caliber OLBs at the same time. At times we have not been able to field a starting Safety at all, and only recently do we have a pair of them.

OTOH Capers is well known around the league as a good DC, and even though you can't do it in the NFL he has managed to turn chicken gunk into chicken salad for a limited time here and there.

Cullen Jenkins was the best DL Capers ever had at GB. That say much?

GB has $$ priorities on the other side of the ball. It's clear their commitment to defense is limited. Also too many misses on the acquisitions they do make. It doesn't take many mistakes (Justin Harrell, Jerel Worthy) when you're half-assing it and drafting 28th.

It's entirely possible that Thompson has provided Capers with talented players but the defensive coordinator hasn't used or developed them to fulfill their potential.

There's no way to fairly evaluate the main reason for the Packers defense having struggled over the past six seasons as long as the team holds on to Thompson and Capers.
 

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I still think the guy that makes this all come together well is Kenny Clark. If he expands and continues his improvement from late last season and guys like Lowry, Martinez, Ryan, Fackrell and Thomas make incremental progress we'll show very well imo. This team needs some early in the game three and outs which would put a lot of pressure on opposing OC's to stay in the game. That puts guys like Matthews, Daniels and Perry in a very good position to succeed.
 
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I still think the guy that makes this all come together well is Kenny Clark. If he expands and continues his improvement from late last season and guys like Lowry, Martinez, Ryan, Fackrell and Thomas make incremental progress we'll show very well imo.

We´ve discussed about that in the past on several occasions. I don´t believe it´s smart to heavily rely on several young players to improve and the past has shown not all of them develop as expected.
 

n4t

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Chicken ot the egg?

Maybe the reason Capers hasnt had a great DL is because he is a bad coach. Maybe he has the talent but just doesnt develop or utilize it at maximum effectiveness. If you dont develop, motivate, and game plan your players, that can look like a lack of talent.

So Jerel Worthy and Justin Harrell just needed motivation? Lawrence Guy and Khyri Thornton are ripping up the league for sure. Can't remember the name, but retired with a horrific ankle injury - that guy was decent I guess. Let's be clear here; Mike Daniels would not be the best DL on many (most?) teams. Vague generalizations and your misunderstanding that these players need the DC to 'motivate' them don't change any of this.

Capers has a reputation as a good coach but he also has a reputation for tanking a defense. The pattern is repeated in every DC job he had. So good in year 1. Do great in year 2. Get worse every year after that.

This tired old argument has already been refuted. I've seen it broken down by year, FA acquisition/loss, and draft for each of Capers teams. Teams make a big initial investment and then as the best players leave they are not adequately replaced. And, pray tell, among whom does Capers have a reputation for tanking defenses? Forum posters?

There is no reason to think a front office is only good at evaluating one side of the ball. Clearly an emphasis has been placed on the defense and still they remain mediocre. My eyeball test says that our game plans are rarely creative and play with calls are predictable. I dont see in-game adjustments and I dont know the last time is was impressed by the defensive coaching. Actually I do. Packers vrs seahawks in NFCCG. Brilliant job defensively coached. But that seems the exception, not the rule.

Missing the point here. GBP spends a LOT of money on Aaron and the offense. The defense is often left to get by without all the best pieces it needs to be good, let alone great. Pretty sure that's what I said.

Bottom line is we don't have a single undeniable blue-chip player on defense at this time. Coaches can turn a prospect into a player, but only a player can put forth the effort and possess the talent to reach that star-quality level. This isn't the movies.

Oh and I like Josh Jones. Looks like he could be a stud. :)
 
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So Jerel Worthy and Justin Harrell just needed motivation? Lawrence Guy and Khyri Thornton are ripping up the league for sure. Can't remember the name, but retired with a horrific ankle injury - that guy was decent I guess. Let's be clear here; Mike Daniels would not be the best DL on many (most?) teams. Vague generalizations and your misunderstanding that these players need the DC to 'motivate' them don't change any of this.

Missing the point here. GBP spends a LOT of money on Aaron and the offense. The defense is often left to get by without all the best pieces it needs to be good, let alone great. Pretty sure that's what I said.

There's no doubt Thompson erred on some of the picks he made on defense over his tenure but as I've mentioned before there's no fair way to evaluate the reason for the unit's shortcomings as long as the Packers hold on to both the general manager and Capers.

Daniels is one of the best defensive linemen in the league therefore suggesting he wouldn't be the top positional player on most teams is plain and simply wrong.

FYI the Packers have spent significantly more cap space on the defensive side of the ball over the past four years but unfortunately without achieving the desired results.
 

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We´ve discussed about that in the past on several occasions. I don´t believe it´s smart to heavily rely on several young players to improve and the past has shown not all of them develop as expected.
I still think Kenny Clark is this defense's wild card in 2017. Everybody will look better if he plays well for us. Injuries of course the other wild card as it is for 31 other teams.
 

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There's no doubt Thompson erred on some of the picks he made on defense over his tenure but as I've mentioned before there's no fair way to evaluate the reason for the unit's shortcomings as long as the Packers hold on to both the general manager and Capers.

Daniels is one of the best defensive linemen in the league therefore suggesting he wouldn't be the top positional player on most teams is plain and simply wrong.

FYI the Packers have spent significantly more cap space on the defensive side of the ball over the past four years but unfortunately without achieving the desired results.
If you give Daniels the "one of the best defensive linemen" moniker, you would have to do the same for a lot of the players in the league. I could name 20 interior defensive linemen fairly easily who are just as good or better, and the list obviously gets longer when you include edge rushers on the defensive line.

I think the talent procurement and coaching both need improvement. Most of these first rounders are either disappointments, or not the game-changing talents that we need to be acquiring with the early picks on a team which doesn't utilize Free Agency. Most of the other picks are JAGs.

However, I think the defense should be capable of actually making a stop at the end of the game, or preventing the other team from scoring 40 points without breaking a sweat.
 
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I still think Kenny Clark is this defense's wild card in 2017.

I agree that Clark performing on the same or an even better level than during the second half of last season would be a huge benefit for the entire defense.

If you give Daniels the "one of the best defensive linemen" moniker, you would have to do the same for a lot of the players in the league. I could name 20 interior defensive linemen fairly easily who are just as good or better, and the list obviously gets longer when you include edge rushers on the defensive line.

I'm curious about that list, including edge rusher doesn't make any sense though.
 

Patriotplayer90

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I agree that Clark performing on the same or an even better level than during the second half of last season would be a huge benefit for the entire defense.



I'm curious about that list, including edge rusher doesn't make any sense though.
JJ Watt
Aaron Donald
Leonard Williams
Muhammad Wilkerson
Jurrell Casey
Sheldon Richardson
C. Campbell
Malik Jackson
Damon Harrison
Cameron Jordan
Derek Wolfe
Brandon Williams
Linval Joseph
Geno Atkins
Kawaan Short
Fletcher Cox
N. Suh
Gerald McCoy

Didn't quite get to 20, but I was tired of racking my brain. Some are obviously better, but I think a case for all of these guys could be made as far as being just as good or superior to Daniels.
 

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JJ Watt
Aaron Donald
Leonard Williams
Muhammad Wilkerson
Jurrell Casey
Sheldon Richardson
C. Campbell
Malik Jackson
Damon Harrison
Cameron Jordan
Derek Wolfe
Brandon Williams
Linval Joseph
Geno Atkins
Kawaan Short
Fletcher Cox
N. Suh
Gerald McCoy

Didn't quite get to 20, but I was tired of racking my brain. Some are obviously better, but I think a case for all of these guys could be made as far as being just as good or superior to Daniels.

The only guys on that list I'd rank ahead of Daniels are Watt, Donald, McCoy and Suh.

Top 5 interior defensive lineman that gets seriously underrated by some
 

Patriotplayer90

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The only guys on that list I'd rank ahead of Daniels are Watt, Donald, McCoy and Suh.

Top 5 interior defensive lineman that gets seriously underrated by some
Literally every single player that I've named has had comparable or better production in recent years, many with much better production. I'm just not understanding the metric you are using to claim that Daniels is better than these guys.
 

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So Jerel Worthy and Justin Harrell just needed motivation? Lawrence Guy and Khyri Thornton are ripping up the league for sure. Can't remember the name, but retired with a horrific ankle injury - that guy was decent I guess. Let's be clear here; Mike Daniels would not be the best DL on many (most?) teams. Vague generalizations and your misunderstanding that these players need the DC to 'motivate' them don't change any of this.
Yes. Worthy needed motivation. He immediately slacked off and started enjoying the good life. Perhaps a better coach could have understood him and somehow brought it out of him.

Harrell needed no motivation and was an absolute beast. He was a huge gamble that didnt pay off. His demise was due to a back tweek that severely limited his power and caused a lot of pain. The operation to fix it failed and made it worse. Your bringing him up shows your ignorance.

Khyri. Bad pick. Just a bad pick.

Guy. A 7th round pick on an incredible physical athlete who was raw and not very bright. A big gamble.

Not sure how you cite these examples as proof a coach doesnt need to motivate. I think they support it. Many a HOF speech has segments in there honoring a coach along the way who really inspired and motivated them.

This tired old argument has already been refuted. I've seen it broken down by year, FA acquisition/loss, and draft for each of Capers teams. Teams make a big initial investment and then as the best players leave they are not adequately replaced. And, pray tell, among whom does Capers have a reputation for tanking defenses? Forum posters?
Think man, think! I know you can do it!

Hmmmm. Good players leave and are not replaced by good players. Well, ask why there arent good players? He doesnt develop them!!!!!!!! Did the GM that drafted them suddenly get stupid? what of the non starting roster of developing players already there? Did the GM inducing incompetence that Capers apparently emits preceed him to the team he took over 2 or three years ahead of him?
Missing the point here. GBP spends a LOT of money on Aaron and the offense. The defense is often left to get by without all the best pieces it needs to be good, let alone great. Pretty sure that's what I said.

Bottom line is we don't have a single undeniable blue-chip player on defense at this time. Coaches can turn a prospect into a player, but only a player can put forth the effort and possess the talent to reach that star-quality level. This isn't the movies.

Oh and I like Josh Jones. Looks like he could be a stud. :)
Takes both, talent and coaching. A very simplistic view is to see a poor performance and immediately blame the GM/player for lack of talent. Or oppositely seeing a successful team and attributing it to just talent. Funny how the best coach in the NFL, Belicheck loses players and they tend to not perform as well for their new team.

Truth is there is not much talent difference between a good player and an average player. Hard work and coaching makes a big.difference.
 
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RRyder

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Literally every single player that I've named has had comparable or better production in recent years, many with much better production. I'm just not understanding the metric you are using to claim that Daniels is better than these guys.

Well u can argue place on the list if you want. You could drop him to 10 without getting a huge argument from me but I'd simply rate him at 5 based on a combination of help he receives around him, production, what he's asked to do in the scheme and overall impact. With those things in mind. Based on your list of players only 4 would I rank higher.

You can argue other guys over him sure. 16 more though? I don't agree with that at all
 

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