improved defence

PikeBadger

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It's very hard to trust Raji. It's very easy to trust Daniels. It's very possible we could lose both of them. I think there is a very real possibility we might have to replace 3 of our current DL after the season.
 

Carl

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It's very hard to trust Raji. It's very easy to trust Daniels. It's very possible we could lose both of them. I think there is a very real possibility we might have to replace 3 of our current DL after the season.

Daniels should be back. TT simply doesn't let really good players go after their rookie deal.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Daniels might end up walking if only because he's the kind of DT that a 4-3 might spend a ton of money on (e.g., Gerald McCoy). While I still think it very unlikely, it's not ONLY up to Thompson when it comes to re-signing a player, the player has some say in it as well.
 
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Daniels might end up walking if only because he's the kind of DT that a 4-3 might spend a ton of money on (e.g., Gerald McCoy). While I still think it very unlikely, it's not ONLY up to Thompson when it comes to re-signing a player, the player has some say in it as well.

Well, Thompson could put the franchise tag on him.
 

Mondio

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I would be very surprised if Thompson didn't do everything in his power to keep Daniels in a GB uniform beyond this year.
 

Carl

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Daniels might end up walking if only because he's the kind of DT that a 4-3 might spend a ton of money on (e.g., Gerald McCoy). While I still think it very unlikely, it's not ONLY up to Thompson when it comes to re-signing a player, the player has some say in it as well.

It isn't only up to TT, but somehow he's managed to keep every really good player we've had after a rookie deal.
 

PikeBadger

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It isn't only up to TT, but somehow he's managed to keep every really good player we've had after a rookie deal.
It's because of his great personality. Everyone loves Ted.
 
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Interesting article by Bob McGinn about the Packers improved run defense and the reasons for it:

http://m.jsonline.com/sports/packer...s-tone-for-packers-b99593129z1-331904641.html
Interesting, if entirely one-sided.

There is little doubt that having Matthews at ILB over the lackluster Hawk would yield meaningful improvement.
McGinn says, "moving Clay Matthews from outside to inside linebacker changed everything." One would expect having an All Pro in the position would have a significant impact. If Capers D requires an All Pro at the position, then so be it because that's where we're at. Maybe that's why an ILB was not taken in a high round lo these many seasons of the defense covering for Hawk...the All Pro potential wasn't on the board. Anyhow....

...McGinn continues by putting the entire improvement of the run defense in the replacement of Hawk, while enabling Raji and Capers in excusing themselves from culpability at the expense of the dearly departed.

Of course one wonders if McGinn might amend those opinions after Gurley's performance, especially with respect to Palmer who I'll get to in a minute. But lets say that one game is neither here nor there.

He implies that "the structural, schematic and attitudinal shifts that just might transform what had been a weak run defense the last four years" is the direct and immediate result of Hawk's departure. Really?

Question: So how does he account for the "structural, schematic and attitudinal shifts" in the pass rush, where I personally see more improvement than in the run defense. Is that supposed to be attributable to Hawk's absence as well? I think not. Raji, to take one example, spent 2 full years playing patty cake with O-Linemen in the pass rush...he wasn't covering for Hawk then, was he? The only D-Lineman last season who showed consistent aggressiveness was Daniels, consistently shedding blocks as Trgovac is quoted as saying, though we certainly didn't need to be told that. Hawk's presence didn't stop him from getting off blocks and making plays any less then than this season; if he doesn't need to make excuses for last season then why should we expect "Hawk excuses" from others? We shouldn't.

So, the fact this defense plays with more aggressiveness in the pass rush as well as the running game indicates there are more factors at work than Hawk being weak against the run.

Is Hawk to blame for long spells of bad tackling in the backfield or lackadaisical pursuit last season since it has been largely absent this season? Is Hawk's absence the direct cause of this newfound ability to finish games? That conclusion would be foolish.

We've already discussed the simplification of the calls which entails "less scheme", less confusion, less thinking, more football instincts. The excuse Capers gave was the game got faster so the team needs to play faster. Oh, right, that happened just last season? No it did not; Capers, perhaps at McCarthy's prompting, climbed out of the rabbit hole to discover what we've been seeing for years. Of should we even take that at face value? Perhaps it's a very belated realization that many of his players couldn't internalize his complexities, which is a different rabbit hole. Maybe both?

Further, we've already discussed McCarthy teaching defenders how to look for O-Linemen's "tells", something I would have expected to have started with these guys in college football, or at least the one's from major conference programs, let alone what they should have been taught already in Green Bay.

As for a minor point in this great scheme of things, let's consider Palmer. McGinn calls Barrington a "non-entity", which he presumably meant in the run game since that's what this piece is exclusively about. On the other hand, Palmer "has provided unexpected benefits". Frankly, you'd be hard pressed to find much to differentiate them. Barrington was a little more physical; Palmer looks to be a little smarter, but he's not very quick, makes his share of mistakes and is not immune from being taken out at the second level, actually more often than one would care to see.

If you look at the Gurley 55 yard run, Palmer initially flows to the eventual hole (and the only hole), then moves to his right as Gurley hides behind the center, bottled up. When Gurley cuts back, Palmer tries to recover and doesn't get within spitting distance. Not good. Somewhat Hawk-like, actually. And this is just the most glaring example. Better than Barrington? Maybe a little, sometimes. He looks a lot better than he is because of the guy he's playing next to.

In the passing game, not a subject of McGinn's piece, Palmer was such a liability in coverage against anybody who runs better than 4.75 that Thompson had to go out and sign his "caddy" to play dime backer. The better Thomas looks in that role, the more it reflects on Palmer's liability. The same move would have been in order with Barrington, a very similar player in coverage. I'll make the bold prediction that Palmer will eventually be added by McGinn's to his list of "non-entities", if that's what we are supposed to call them.

Replacing Hawk with an All Pro has had major benefits. But this piece is largely a faulty extrapolation that overlooks a variety of other factors at work.
 
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Passepartout

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It did have a major factor. In replacing Hawk. Everybody on that defense needs to go to the Pro Bowl!
 

Jerellh528

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It feels awesome having a great defense. I was watching nfl network and the consensus had us as the best defense in the conference. Matthews should be in consideration for dpoy
 

TJV

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...McGinn continues by putting the entire improvement of the run defense in the replacement of Hawk...
No he doesn't. He emphasizes the replacement of all the undersized ILBs led by Hawk which required the DL to keep OL off of them:
After the vicious and explosive Desmond Bishop suffered what in effect was a career-ending thigh injury in August 2012, the Packers spent almost three full seasons both trying to hide and making excuses for Hawk and most of his fellow nonentities inside. Beside Hawk, the procession included D.J. Smith (5 feet 10½ inches, 239), Brad Jones (6-3, 242), Jamari Lattimore (6-2, 229) and Sam Barrington (6-1, 240).
IMO Matthews switch inside is the most important, but not the only difference resulting in the improved play of the D. McGinn's focus is too narrow in the article but that's no reason to mischaracterize it.
Question: So how does he account for the "structural, schematic and attitudinal shifts" in the pass rush, where I personally see more improvement than in the run defense.
As you say later in your post, the passing game is not the subject of this article so why would he account for changes in the pass rush?
 
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What I'm witnessing in this years D squad is clearly a significant improvement in QB pressures and tackling as a whole. Holding our opponents to 16 points is just plain remarkable. Increased opportunities for our DB's to make plays on the ball and the ability to create turnovers fits right into our same strengths that earned us a Championship in 2010. Winning the turnover battle, the field position battle, the penalty discipline battle, which we still need to improve on this week, are key ingredients in Super Bowl Chili.
 
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HardRightEdge

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No he doesn't. He emphasizes the replacement of all the undersized ILBs led by Hawk which required the DL to keep OL off of them: IMO Matthews switch inside is the most important, but not the only difference resulting in the improved play of the D. McGinn's focus is too narrow in the article but that's no reason to mischaracterize it.
OK, split hairs if you like. The article puts the onus 90% on Hawk, if that makes you happy. As I pointed out, once McGinn (and evidently yourself) have more time to consider the play of Palmer, it will be seen there's is little or no upgrade over Barrington. At that point it will be 100% in retrospect.
 
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HardRightEdge

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As you say later in your post, the passing game is not the subject of this article so why would he account for changes in the pass rush?
You missed the obvious point which should have been abundantly clear. Follow the logic instead of lawyering and splitting hairs:

1. In seasons past we have seen lackluster energy and aggressiveness in both the run defense and pass rush.
2. This season we've seen improvements in both.
3. The guys doing the run defending are the same group of guys in the pass rush.
4. So, if one wants to argue that the run defense improvement is the result of Hawk's departure (which is 90% of the argument), how does he account for the same improvement in the pass rush with the same guys where having to cover Hawk's back would have had no influence?
5. One might conclude there are overriding influences that affect both the run and rush aspects considering it is the same group of guys.

And we have not even gotten into how good the run defense really is. Better, for sure, especially in the base group's work. But the "transformative" nature McGinn describes is another bit of hyperbole. The real improvements in this defense are in the pass rush and better play in the secondary where the team play looks more coherent and the guys are pursuing and making tackles...Hawk's absence has little do with that.
 
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TJV

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OK, split hairs if you like. The article puts the onus 90% on Hawk, if that makes you happy. As I pointed out, once McGinn (and evidently yourself) have more time to consider the play of Palmer, it will be seen there's is little or no upgrade over Barrington. At that point it will be 100% in retrospect.
It's not splitting hairs as the part of the article I posted shows - he writes it in plain english. We'll see about Palmer - good to know you're certain that he won't get better and Barrington wouldn't have regressed or plateaued.
.
 
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HardRightEdge

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It's not splitting hairs as the part of the article I posted shows - he writes it in plain english. We'll see about Palmer - good to know you're certain that he won't get better and Barrington wouldn't have regressed or plateaued.
.
I call that lawyering.... :confused:

As for Palmer, we've already seen it...if one cares to look.
 

TJV

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You missed the obvious point which should have been abundantly clear. Follow the logic instead of lawyering and splitting hairs:
Follow this logic if you can: He wrote an article about the run defense improving, not the pass rush. Every article doesn't have to be all-encompassing. BTW, you're not about to pop a vein are you? :D
 
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HardRightEdge

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Follow this logic if you can: He wrote an article about the run defense improving, not the pass rush. Every article doesn't have to be all-encompaissing. BTW, you're not about to pop a vein are you? :D
Actually, no, he did not write an article about the "run defense improving". He wrote an article about the "all encompassing" (to use your term) aspects of "structural, schematic and attitudinal shifts" in the run game.

You can't find more holistic issues to take on, and to think those aspects are somehow applicable when the QB hands the ball to a RB and not applicable when it is play action is nonsense.

If you're going to talk about "structural, schematic and attitudinal shifts" you better go looking for the causes as to why it is shot through the entire defense.

McGinn fell short in looking at half the forest (or more rightly one third of the forest since "Matthews changed everything" but presumably only when playing ILB, a part time job), concluding the improved health of the forest came about from the felling of one tree. It was not a good piece of high level analysis. He needed to pull in the other aspects of change, not atomize the answer to his holistic theme down to one player. Hawk was as much a symptom as a cause. It was not McGinn's best work.

My veins are fine; your kettle does have a habit of boiling over. I did break a toe a couple weeks back. ;)
 
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TJV

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Actually, no, he did not write an article about the "run defense improving". He wrote an article about the "all encompassing" (to use your term) aspects of "structural, schematic and attitudinal shifts" in the run game.
Yes "in the run game" – not the pass D – was clearly the focus of the article. Here’s the title: “Newly nasty run defense sets tone for Packers”. Here’s the first four sentences of the article: “Protecting the inside linebackers was a way of life for the defensive linemen of the Green Bay Packers in their first six years under the current coaching staff. (They don’t need to protect ILBs when rushing the passer, do they?) It was the only way coordinator Dom Capers probably thought the run defense could hold up with A.J. Hawk and other lightweights stationed at inside linebacker. Moving Clay Matthews from outside to inside linebacker changed everything. Installing another heavy inside linebacker, Nate Palmer, has continued to provide unexpected benefits.” (Heavier ILBs are not an issue vs. the pass.)

I bolded text – including what you wrote – and included explanations parenthetically to help you understand the focus of the article was the run defense.
My veins are fine; your kettle does have a habit of boiling over. I did break a toe a couple weeks back.
It’s getting more and more humorous watching you pretend you’re above it all when your posting tells a different story.
 
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HardRightEdge

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;)
Yes "in the run game" – not the pass D – was clearly the focus of the article. Here’s the title: “Newly nasty run defense sets tone for Packers”. Here’s the first four sentences of the article: “Protecting the inside linebackers was a way of life for the defensive linemen of the Green Bay Packers in their first six years under the current coaching staff. (They don’t need to protect ILBs when rushing the passer, do they?) It was the only way coordinator Dom Capers probably thought the run defense could hold up with A.J. Hawk and other lightweights stationed at inside linebacker. Moving Clay Matthews from outside to inside linebacker changed everything. Installing another heavy inside linebacker, Nate Palmer, has continued to provide unexpected benefits.” (Heavier ILBs are not an issue vs. the pass.)

I bolded text – including what you wrote – and included explanations parenthetically to help you understand the focus of the article was the run defense. It’s getting more and more humorous watching you pretend you’re above it all when your posting tells a different story.
Nate Palmer is not very good against the run, no matter how heavy he is. ;) I can see that kettle starting to bubble. ;);)
 

Joe Nor Cal Packer

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You missed the obvious point which should have been abundantly clear. Follow the logic instead of lawyering and splitting hairs:

1. In seasons past we have seen lackluster energy and aggressiveness in both the run defense and pass rush.
2. This season we've seen improvements in both.
3. The guys doing the run defending are the same group of guys in the pass rush.
4. So, if one wants to argue that the run defense improvement is the result of Hawk's departure (which is 90% of the argument), how does he account for the same improvement in the pass rush with the same guys where having to cover Hawk's back would have had no influence?
5. One might conclude there are overriding influences that affect both the run and rush aspects considering it is the same group of guys.

And we have not even gotten into how good the run defense really is. Better, for sure, especially in the base group's work. But the "transformative" nature McGinn describes is another bit of hyperbole. The real improvements in this defense are in the pass rush and better play in the secondary where the team play looks more coherent and the guys are pursuing and making tackles...Hawk's absence has little do with that.
You're reasoning is sound. If the suggestion is that the D is significantly better in large part because Hawk is gone, well that pretty much gets blown away in the first three points you've made. And CMIII was already playing ILB last year. Daniels is a stud, he'll never get the franchise tag either TT will find a much more reasonable way to keep him, maybe Raji is serious about proving himself, and the secondary is better because Williams and House are GONE and have been replaced by smarter, more athletic, and more aggressive rookies.

Stick to your guns. The D has been responsible for the last two wins. Why would anyone bother talking about Hawk. Who cares?
 

TJV

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Nate Palmer is not very good against the run, no matter how heavy he is. I can see that kettle starting to bubble.
Even if you're right, he's obviously better than Hawk and the discussion of how good or bad he is vs. the run regards what aspect of the D? I can see that vein starting to pop. ;)
Why would anyone bother talking about Hawk. Who cares?
Packers fans. That's a ridiculous point: If no one should bother talking about Hawk (not a point made by HRE BTW) than why talk about any former Packer and their impact on the team? No serious Packers fan would argue the D isn’t better without Hawk - he was horrible last year. That’s not the issue being discussed. But I like that you think HRE needs encouragement! :roflmao:
 
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