improved defence

[TJV]

The subject of Hawk being a problem for the defense is hardly new to this forum. There are a lot of reasons for the improvement vs. the run but that doesn't mean Hawk wasn't a huge problem. IMO what McGinn describes is what many of us saw:

Throwing his body at the feet of blockers, having no recourse other than to give himself up. Screwed into the ground as his helmet would fly off. Minimal change of direction, no quick twitch. Wired on blocks. Knocked back by the ball carrier, almost never vice versa.

One interesting note from the article for a certain poster is the Packers have used the 3-man line 39 times this season.

 

[Jerellh528]

Clay has been the key for this defensive turnaround, I read that he's the second rated Ilb in the league, it's certainly showing. Also raji and Daniels are playing lights out.

 

[Mondio]

The subject of Hawk being a problem for the defense is hardly new to this forum. There are a lot of reasons for the improvement vs. the run but that doesn't mean Hawk wasn't a huge problem. IMO what McGinn describes is what many of us saw: One interesting note from the article for a certain poster is the Packers have used the 3-man line 39 times this season.

YOu think Hawk was a bigger problem than say a Ryan Picket that was 3 years past gone and still playing? A guy that could barely stand in one spot on the Dline? Or CJ Wilson who's knack for eating up 1 block all the while getting no penetration or being able to play off that block? How about Raji mostly playing 3 yards down field rather than up field? But hey, let's dedicate an entire article to a mostly solid player that has definitely declined and is no longer here. Gee thanks for the insight.

I'd say many times more important are a guy named Pickett is no longer here, Wilson is no longer here, playing 3 yards down field Raji is no longer here. Instead we have an inspired Raji, A guy named Daniels, an upstart Pennell, Guion and Jones. I think instead of an injured Perry, we have a healthy one. Instead of Neal having shoulder surgery, he's healthy and part of the rotation. No more Vic So'oto's or Mulumbas on one leg. Clay Matthews is being used everywhere, we have competent safeties our DB's have been good enough for a while. We have a guy named Peppers.

Put Wilson or Pickett back in we're worse, the same as if you take Matthews out and put in Hawk. Add some injuries to Perry and Neal, I bet we're worse. Take away the rising Elliot and we're worse. Get rid of Daniels and we're worse. But hey, let's write an article about a player that isn't here, he'll take the blame. I think saying the scheme was based on AJ Hawk is short sighted, disingenuous, and offbase. There is no doubt the player that he was, but the author expects us to believe the defense was called around his skills? yeah, i completely believe that Rather I think Raji, Pickett and Wilson were asked to hold the line because they didn't do much else well either. having them shoot gaps and not be able to shed blocks or be 3-5 yards down field already aren't exactly a recipe for success either.

 

[easyk83]

I don't think the improvement in the run defense had as much to do with how bad Hawk was as how much it had to do with how exceptional Matthews is. It is rare to have a player who has the loose hips speed and acceleration of Clay Matthews AND the ability to take on blockers like he does. Matthews at ILB plays with the physicality and strength of a 270 pound defensive end and the range of a 220 pound safety.

As for Raji, in 2013 the defense played well up until Rodgers injury. Honestly look at the yards and points allowed up until that point. Our run defense didn't fall apart until after Rodgers went down and Raji appeared to mail it in. The Defense stiffened once Raji started showing up to play at the tail end of the season. This is an argument I've advanced since the end of the 2013 and the defensive stats back me up. Heck even McGinn's analysis of Raji supports this view. Raji generally graded out solid to good in McGinn's articles until the Rodgers injury. After that McGinn's weekly reviews of Raji's play took a nose dive only to recover after Rodgers returned. Conclusion, BJ Raji's play in a contract year mirrored his motivation. Without the expectation of a win Raji put forth limited effort during the stretch that Rodgers was gone.

I will submit that Hawk was bad last year. But he did play well for us in the Super Bowl campaign and he was playing well for us in the first half of 2013. It's not all because of Hawk that our Defense stunk so much. Part of it was not having even a mediocre OLB opposite Matthews whereas now a good LOLB in Peppers and productive rotation at ROLB between Perry and Neal. Part of it is BJ Raji's return to form and part is the emergence of Mike Daniels. It also doesn't hurt that guys like Mike Pennel are also producing for us. Finally I will note that our safety play has improved immensely from where it was between this year and last.

 

[easyk83]

That article is an example of bad McGinn. He's willing to overlook bad play from players and other guys you'd think the player shot Bob's dog. Remember Ryan Grant, McGinn always hated on him. Then when we saw how the other guys looked suddenly Bob didn't have much to say about hard running Ryan.

 

[DaveRoller]

No doubt that Clay's move to the middle is the ying to the yang of benching Hawk.

Pickett & CJ Wilson were banished after 2013 (as was Jolly) and Wynn was long gone by 2014 as well, while Raji was on IR. Heck, even bad news Brad Jones was sent to the bench (for Lattimore, gulp) after game 1 in Seattle last year. The only constant in the middle of the D was good old AJ.

However, after the Sunday night debacle in New Orleans (the last game the Saints won at home before last Sunday night) someone (MM?) had finally seen enough and Clay moved to the middle, Sam Barrington seeing snaps, Hawk's playing time was dramatically cut and lo and behold the D (especially the run D) improved immediately.

To say Hawk was not a significant part of the problem is to deny what Raji, CJ Wilson, and Pickett are saying (and Pickett said it in 2013 when he was still a member of the team), and the immediate defensive improvement that followed Hawk's benching.

There is a reason TT is eating Hawk's "dead money" this season.

 

[TJV]

YOu think Hawk was a bigger problem than say a Ryan Picket that was 3 years past gone and still playing? A guy that could barely stand in one spot on the Dline? Or CJ Wilson who's knack for eating up 1 block all the while getting no penetration or being able to play off that block? How about Raji mostly playing 3 yards down field rather than up field? But hey, let's dedicate an entire article to a mostly solid player that has definitely declined and is no longer here.

Yes, I believe Hawk was the biggest problem on defense, particularly last season. He didn’t just decline, his performance was horrible. Shame on the coaching staff for taking so long to recognize it. I agree with McGinn when he writes Hawk lost weight in an effort to improve his speed but it not only didn’t improve his speed, it made him even worse vs. the run. His body just couldn't do what his mind was telling it to.

BTW, here’s McGinn’s review of Pickett after the 2013 season:

Ryan Pickett: His range has diminished but not his effort. He's always there at the point of attack, occupying double-teams to keep the LBs free and almost never being dislodged from his gap. One scout insisted he didn't disengage from blocks as well as in the past. Pickett ranked second on the unit in tackles per snap (one every 9.89), easily the worst rate of his eight-year career in Green Bay. … Grade: C.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/defense12-b99180643z1-239782291.html

Of course I don’t offer that as proof of anything but McGinn’s characterization of Pickett’s play coincides with mine and stands in stark contrast to yours. As far as CJ Wilson, he played about one-third as much in 2013 as he did the previous season so in no way was he as significant a factor as Hawk.

When did the D improve last season? IMO it was when Matthews was switched to ILB and it improved more when Barrington started to take snaps away from Hawk. (Of course neither Pickett nor Wilson were on the team last season.)

Of course there are more factors than just Matthews’ switch that have led to the improvement of the D. But the one player who most needed to be replaced, the one player who was by far the biggest problem was Hawk.

BTW, from everything I’ve heard and read I think Hawk is a fine human being and a dedicated teammate who gave it his all. I don’t blame him for his physical failings any more than I blame myself for not having even a bad NFL career. So my description of him is only with regard to his performance on the field.

 

[RonTom6]

I would like to think that first off our run D has been such an improvement and it is great to see. However we deal with all of these injuries and continue to swap positions and lose focus on blocking. Today's game i feel was a little down on blocking assignments. However our special teams... whoaaaa awesome thus far and looks like we have finally figured out how to wrap up on D and special teams. Dom capers is a man i have always been ehhh about, but he finds a way to keep our D looking like a competing top D.

 

[Carl]

I would like to think that first off our run D has been such an improvement and it is great to see. However we deal with all of these injuries and continue to swap positions and lose focus on blocking. Today's game i feel was a little down on blocking assignments. However our special teams... whoaaaa awesome thus far and looks like we have finally figured out how to wrap up on D and special teams. Dom capers is a man i have always been ehhh about, but he finds a way to keep our D looking like a competing top D.

Capers must have seen something on tape regarding Foles not doing well against a blitz and he really brought it at Foles today.

Also mixed up some formations and where guys lined up. Clay and Peppers were both rushing from the same side without a D end on Hyde's pick

 

[Mondio]

and there is no doubt what Hawk was last year, we all saw it, but then again, the Packers have been poor against the run and on Defense in General prior to the first 4 games in which Hawk was mostly replaced. There were 20 other things that happened too. The playbook was simplified, our best defensive player switched positions. We had numerous personel changes, we've gotten better all the way around, but an author would have us believe it was because we ran our defense around a Declining players skill set? Maybe it was the fact that Pickett couldn't do any more than stand in one spot on defense and he was one of our better D-linemen? So they made their jobs easy, keep linemen off linebackers, which by they way is a completely foreign and radical concept for a defense????

You can say it's in stark contrast to my view, but it kind of says EXACTLY what i said. He couldn't move. He wasn't making plays. He didn't stand pat and disengage and make plays. He eat up a gap, kind of and with 2 other guys that didn't really do a very good job either.

and his 2013 assessment is exactly what it was of Picket, His range has decreased, so he can hold a point. What were they asking him to do? exactly. It wasn't because they wanted to run the defense around Hawk, it was because he couldn't do what they really wanted him to. But hey, let's blame it on Hawk. Hawk had to play next to Jones, let's blame it on Hawk. We've had a merry go round of injuries at DL and linebacker, let's blame it on hawk.

for all you saying last year was enough, yes, that much was obvious. Do you really think i'm saying it wasn't despite my numerous times saying exactly that?, last year was obvious Hawk was done. That should clear up any misconceptions...Hopefully. If Ginny wants to say Hawk was the weak point in 4 games last year, fine, but then we weren't running nascar defenses after week for either and a lot of other things changed. Again, ,no doubt Hawk had diminished, but I find his "findings" to be exactly as I said earlier is disingenuous at best.

 

[TJV]

I interpret this

Picket that was 3 years past gone and still playing? A guy that could barely stand in one spot on the Dline?

to be different than this:

You can say it's in stark contrast to my view, but it kind of says EXACTLY what i said. He couldn't move. He wasn't making plays. He didn't stand pat and disengage and make plays. He eat up a gap, kind of and with 2 other guys that didn't really do a very good job either.

McGinn wrote - and I highlighted "He's always there at the point of attack, occupying double-teams to keep the LBs free and almost never being dislodged from his gap." That is not exactly what you posted but I'm glad you endorsed what McGinn wrote. "Occupying double teams to keep Hawk free and almost never being dislodged..." doesn't sound like someone who was 3 years past gone or one who could barely stand in one spot. BTW, a NT "standing in one spot while being double teamed was definitely doing his job in Capers defense - and it was the ILBs who weren't doing their jobs.

 

[Mondio]

Picket USED to get penetration and move down the line? Yes? No? I say yes, and the last year or 2 here he did nothing but show up. He held a spot and nothing else. Like I said in my first post. Maybe they were calling defenses because of Pickett's skill set and not because of Hawk? Maybe? or is a Defender that cant run down the line, disengage from a block and make a play, or penetrate to disrupt the flow in the backfield a guy you send to do that job? and he could barely stand in one spot, because he couldn't stand there and make a play like every guy on our line can do now. But you're right, it was probably just Hawk, LOL

 

[DaveRoller]

For those who don't recall how AJ played for the Pack.

Look at Ol' #50 "defend" on this long TD run by Seattle's Rawls in Cincy's win earlier today. He gets absolutely engulfed and then looks like he is lame when pursuing

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/...s-scores-on-69-yard-touchdown-run-vs-bengals/

Hawk was "done" several years ago and, oddly, Bengal fans giddy over their 5-0 start are clamoring for different linebackers on their boards.

So glad this guy is gone.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

how many times did we play 3 dlinemen today? it seemed we brought the beef, and crushed foles. causing turnovers. then we went back into clock killing mode on o, (unsucessfully). and on d we went conservative with more dbs. meanwhile, fischer went back to the run, (sucessfully) .wasnt ubtil it was 14-10 did we go back to attack mode. sucessfully.

 

[TJV]

But you're right, it was probably just Hawk, LOL

I never said "just Hawk", we were discussing the biggest problem, right? But I understand why you're trying to deflect from your defense of Hawk.

You apparently think a NT who holds his ground against double teams is a bigger problem than an ILB who throws, "...his body at the feet of blockers, having no recourse other than to give himself up. Screwed into the ground as his helmet would fly off. Minimal change of direction, no quick twitch. Wired on blocks. Knocked back by the ball carrier, almost never vice versa."? I think you're obviously wrong.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

hawk sucked most the time. pickett was a rotation nt at best those last few years. we were bad because we didnt have dlinemen who could get a push, and the o was able to concentrate on mathews. peppers, and the dline being young, fast, as well as big and strong. thats the difference. we also drafted a bunch of dbs who can tackle, and catch. but it all starta with a dominant dline.

 

[Einstein McFly]

Neal, Elliott, Mulumba and Perry are better than Brad Jones, Sam Barrington, A.J. Hawk and Jamari Lattimore. By moving CM3 inside and bringing one of the former for one of the latter, you put better players on the field. That'll always help.

Besides that, Pennell looks good and so does Guion. That makes one good UFA and one good free agent signing on the Dline. That's gonna help the defense every time.

And Daniels is beating the hell out of whoever he lines up against. They REALLY need to get him resigned. He's making everyone around him look better.

 

[Mondio]

I never said "just Hawk", we were discussing the biggest problem, right? But I understand why you're trying to deflect from your defense of Hawk.

You apparently think a NT who holds his ground against double teams is a bigger problem than an ILB who throws, "...his body at the feet of blockers, having no recourse other than to give himself up. Screwed into the ground as his helmet would fly off. Minimal change of direction, no quick twitch. Wired on blocks. Knocked back by the ball carrier, almost never vice versa."? I think you're obviously wrong.

I see what you did, and I should know better by now, you whittle it down to a single point and try to argue. I'm not defending Hawk, i'm glad he's not here. I think a NT that can't do anything more than stand where he's told is not a good place to start on defense. If you can't move, can't disengage, can't make a play, you're not doing much, and YES he was most definitely part of the problem. Put him on this defense today and we are WORSE. Put him in at his level 3 years ago and we are WORSE.

and my position wasn't that Hawk wasn't a problem, he obviously was. His play had diminished significantly. My position is, it's bush league crap, for an author to come thru and write an article basically blaming one guy for this defenses woes against the run game after he's gone and a myriad of other changes have occurred from play calling to players. Using the words of players on a Dline that were every bit as much to blame for the poor performances as any single linebacker to try and paint the picture he wants you to paint.

The biggest problem on any team usually always starts up front. Put junk on the Dline, you're not going to get much behind them. Put junk on the Oline, the RB's WR's, QB's and everyone look worse. The defense had all sorts of problems, including a Charles Woodson that was no longer the player he was either. There were a lot of guys that weren't, or couldn't do what they were asked to do the past few years and for guy writing some colorful anecdotes doesn't change that.

 

[PikeBadger]

There is a completely different energy on display this year. The shackles have been removed and the results are amazing. It is fun watching Raji play this way again. Opposing QB's have the look of fear and confusion in their eyes. We are a bad team to have on the schedule. I'm going to enjoy this ride.

 

[easyk83]

For those who don't recall how AJ played for the Pack.

Look at Ol' #50 "defend" on this long TD run by Seattle's Rawls in Cincy's win earlier today. He gets absolutely engulfed and then looks like he is lame when pursuing

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/...s-scores-on-69-yard-touchdown-run-vs-bengals/

Hawk was "done" several years ago and, oddly, Bengal fans giddy over their 5-0 start are clamoring for different linebackers on their boards.

So glad this guy is gone.

Hawk was too smallish to be a BUCK ILB and he's too small to be a SAM backer. You want a 6'3-6'4 255 pounder, someone almost big enough to put a hand in the dirt. The ideal SAM backer is powerful at the PoA, and yet fluid enough to run with TEs. Brady Poppinga was fast enough and brutally strong at the PoA. He couldn't change direction worth a damn, couldn't cover and forget about him tackling in space. While fans often disliked him his smashmouth play at the point of attack won rave reviews from his coaches and teammates. He covered up Nick Barnett's weakness against any sort of lead blocker. A fullback on Nick equaled surefire pancake. The prototype at that position is a Ben leber, he was a good one for the Vikes. There he does get engulfed by a guard, but most LBs of his build are going to get stoned there.

Hawk came into the league as a 236 pound catch and chase Will backer with remarkable speed and refined tackling and coverage technique. He promptly put on 20 pounds and lost much of his speed. As he aged he cut weight and gained back some of his speed, but years of playing too heavy left him an overly cautious hesitant player. At times when given the chance at the Mack position he honestly did look like he could play at a high level, his games against Cleveland and Baltimore attest to this view. But whenever it seemed like AJ Hawk would turn a corner he'd revert to his old form. AJ just didn't fit within our defense, too hesitant and slow to react as a Mack and too small, bad at taking on blockers to be a Buck.

But even McGinn graded him out as a C in 2013, I suspect he would have been graded much higher before the collapse of the D-line in the first 7 games. At that point he had 3 sacks and was on pace for 130+ tackles on the season. Yes he was playing well and I recall him grading out well in most of those games.

McGinn seems to pin it all on Hawk, but what about the rest of those defenses? Do you guys remember having Jerron and Doctor in the backfield or Brad Jones? How about BJ Raji's play in the second half of 2013? As for that year I recall Pick's play declining considerably during the second half of the season as nagging injuries took their toll.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Here´s an interesting article out of today´s Journal Sentinel looking at the reduced playbook and shorter calls on defense this season:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...mplify-the-defense-b99591848z1-331183831.html

Very interesting article. No matter how smart a player is, an extensive playboook coupled with very long verbal signals - added to an always fluid situation on the field that requires a lot of attention - can be problematic and cause missed assignments.

I don't know that the reduced playbook and the simplification of signals is what has made the difference from last year, but I'm sure it's helped, especially with the rookies. But this defense has been playing well since CMIII was moved to ILB last season. So I think it's a combination of things that has given us this very good D. Mistakes and blown assignments have beeen greatly reduced. And while I can't say for sure, tackling has improved.

And there's an aggresiveness that's apparent this year. Players are getting in place and then attacking. Not exactly sure what's causing that, probably a commbination of things including a simplified system where players know their assignments and just go at the snap. Anyway it's great to see and it's beeen a difference maker over the last two games at least.

And a good D leads to a better O, largely through improved field position.

 

[TJV]

I see what you did, and I should know better by now, you whittle it down to a single point and try to argue.

That's not even a good try: You brought Pickett into the conversation, not me. And again a NT who holds his ground against double teams is better than the version of Raji who got pushed backwards by one player and an ILB who couldn't play the run or pass.

... The biggest problem on any team usually always starts up front.

"usually always"? Maybe you should just pick one.

 

[PikeBadger]

Hawk was too smallish to be a BUCK ILB and he's too small to be a SAM backer. You want a 6'3-6'4 255 pounder, someone almost big enough to put a hand in the dirt. The ideal SAM backer is powerful at the PoA, and yet fluid enough to run with TEs. Brady Poppinga was fast enough and brutally strong at the PoA. He couldn't change direction worth a damn, couldn't cover and forget about him tackling in space. While fans often disliked him his smashmouth play at the point of attack won rave reviews from his coaches and teammates. He covered up Nick Barnett's weakness against any sort of lead blocker. A fullback on Nick equaled surefire pancake. The prototype at that position is a Ben leber, he was a good one for the Vikes. There he does get engulfed by a guard, but most LBs of his build are going to get stoned there.

Hawk came into the league as a 236 pound catch and chase Will backer with remarkable speed and refined tackling and coverage technique. He promptly put on 20 pounds and lost much of his speed. As he aged he cut weight and gained back some of his speed, but years of playing too heavy left him an overly cautious hesitant player. At times when given the chance at the Mack position he honestly did look like he could play at a high level, his games against Cleveland and Baltimore attest to this view. But whenever it seemed like AJ Hawk would turn a corner he'd revert to his old form. AJ just didn't fit within our defense, too hesitant and slow to react as a Mack and too small, bad at taking on blockers to be a Buck.

But even McGinn graded him out as a C in 2013, I suspect he would have been graded much higher before the collapse of the D-line in the first 7 games. At that point he had 3 sacks and was on pace for 130+ tackles on the season. Yes he was playing well and I recall him grading out well in most of those games.

McGinn seems to pin it all on Hawk, but what about the rest of those defenses? Do you guys remember having Jerron and Doctor in the backfield or Brad Jones? How about BJ Raji's play in the second half of 2013? As for that year I recall Pick's play declining considerably during the second half of the season as nagging injuries took their toll.

Interesting note about Pickett. In his later years he played very well against the run for about 6-8 games. He just couldn't sustain it for the full season. I think part of the problem may have been that he didn't take very good care of himself in the off season. I think Raji aas guilty of this too. I remember it setting off major alarm bells that these guys lacked professionalism and commitment. I still worry about Raji getting a long term contract.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I still worry about Raji getting a long term contract.

I agree that I would be worried about giving Raji a long-term deal as well. It seems he has decided to put a lot of effort into becoming a great defensive lineman over the last two offseasons but I´m not sure he would continue to do that once being signed to a lucrative contract.

 

[Mondio]

I have to say, so far this year, Raji has blown the doors off my expectations of him based on past performance, but if it comes down to money, Give it to Daniels. he's better, he's younger and he's a self motivator. He plays hard every play because he wants to, not because he has an external motivator. Those are the guys to keep.

If I had a reasonable expectation that Raji was going to maintain this beyond this year, well, we'd have some money tied up in the Dline for sure and we may anyway. Making a large long term commitment to him just makes me nervous, even if he keeps up this level of play for the entire season.