Fant or Hockenson?

brandon2348

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I wasn't comparing them.

I said Hardman would be another option as a good, speedy slot.

Parris Campbell isn't the only good slot prototype in the league, obviously.

I don't see him as a bread and butter starter. I Would rather give up a tad bit of speed and fall back on Deebo Samuel but Packers are in perfect position to get Campbell.
 

GleefulGary

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Hockenson:
40 time: 68th percentile
Vertical: 90th percentile
Broad: 91st percentile
3-cone: 71st percentile
20 shuttle: 85th percentile
60 shuttle: 84th percentile

That, is a very good athlete my friends. At TE, easily good enough to be a very good player.
 

GleefulGary

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I don't see him as a bread and butter starter. I Would rather give up a tad bit of speed and fall back on Deebo Samuel but Packers are in perfect position to get Campbell.

Didn't say he was. But you have to realize I don't see Campbell as a bread and butter starter either.

I think Campbell is a fall back option to Deebo, personally.
 

brandon2348

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Look-- I really like talking to you but I'm not looking for a lecture about the high ground regarding a poster that has made every disagreement I've ever had with him personal for basically 3 years.

What would Zierlein say at a time like this?

Seriously? I agreed to stay out of your FANTASY LAND THREAD and now you come trolling me in another thread and start talking about "HIGHER GROUND."

Please.
 

brandon2348

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Hockenson:
40 time: 68th percentile
Vertical: 90th percentile
Broad: 91st percentile
3-cone: 71st percentile
20 shuttle: 85th percentile
60 shuttle: 84th percentile

That, is a very good athlete my friends. At TE, easily good enough to be a very good player.

Yeah and were still talking about a F****N TE which unless he is elite you don't touch in the first round and Hockenson is not elite. Thats the end of it.

Im done chasing UNICORNS and FAIREY TALES about this with you guys.

I want a guy who can get chunk plays and stress the defense vertically. Hockenson isnt that guy.
 

Packer96

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Which one, Fant or Hockenson?

Fant looked damn impressive at the combine today.
Hock, I worked with his dad for 20 years, TJ hung around the our boys when they played HS sports here, he would have been around 6-8 then. I've been texting him throughout the day. He interviewed with the Packers and even though the family is diehard Vikings fans they really want him to be a Packer. His agent said multiple teams told him TJ had the best interviews of the combine. Every down player, very smart, brings us something we don't have as a TE.
 

GleefulGary

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That has average to borderline below speed. Dont forget to leave that out.

We don't need a slow TE.

He needed ro run in 4.5's today or at least low 4.6's. He didn't so get over it.

68th percentile for TE's.

I don't know where you learned math, but 50% is average. 68th percentile is solidly above average.

And shuttles show speed while turning. You know, how most TE's run routes. He was even better there. His speed is clearly not an issue at all. It matched what was on tape.
 

brandon2348

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Hock, I worked with his dad for 20 years, TJ hung around the our boys when they played HS sports here, he would have been around 6-8 then. I've been texting him throughout the day. He interviewed with the Packers and even though the family is diehard Vikings fans they really want him to be a Packer. His agent said multiple teams told him TJ had the best interviews of the combine. Every down player, very smart, brings us something we don't have as a TE.

He might bring us a better in-line blocking option but with his 17 reps on bench there are even more RED FLAGS there as he is going to be bumping up against much bigger and stronger guys in NFL. He physically didn't wow anyone at the combine.

I feel kind of bad for him. He should of never been hyped up so much as a potential top 15 pick to begin with.
 

GleefulGary

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He might bring us a better in-line blocking option but with his 17 reps on bench there are even more RED FLAGS there as he is going to be bumping up against much bigger and stronger guys in NFL. He physically didn't wow anyone at the combine.

I feel kind of bad for him. He should of never been hyped up so much as a potential top 15 pick to begin with.

George Kittle is one of the best blocking TE's in the league. 18 bench reps.

Calais Campbell is one of the most physical DL in the league. 16 bench reps. It doesn't matter that much.
 

brandon2348

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George Kittle is one of the best blocking TE's in the league. 18 bench reps.

Calais Campbell is one of the most physical DL in the league. 16 bench reps. It doesn't matter that much.

Glad you brought up Kittle as he also ran 4.52. He has that gear that some thought Hockenson had.

I suppose Hockenson will have a chance at Pro Day to improve but IMO he is maxed out on speed already. I'm along with HRE on this that he is a solid second round overall talent.
 

GleefulGary

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Glad you brought up Kittle as he also ran 4.52. He has that gear that some thought Hockenson had.

I suppose Hockenson will have a chance at Pro Day to improve but IMO he is maxed out on speed already. I'm along with HRE on this that he is a solid second round overall talent.

But how could Kittle possibly be a good blocker with only 18 bench reps?!?!
 

brandon2348

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But how could Kittle possibly be a good blocker with only 18 bench reps?!?!

Once again you bring up an example here and there. If we looked at all the players that had questionable strength coming into the NFL most did not translate to having success as a blocker or DL. Hockenson has questionable stregrh to go along with questionable speed and measurables.

Whether you like it or not it's still a RED FLAG and actually a big one considering his best strength is supposed to be blocking.

Top 15 picks or even first round picks dont usually have as many question marks has Hockenson does. If someone does draft him in the firat round they are REACHING.
 
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You gonna take the bet or not?

Btw, you still owe me an avatar bet from last year after Sutton didn't go first round.

Please make a picture of TJ Hockenson your avatar, unless you want to be a bet welcher.
For a split second I read that as “bed wetter” lol. Not sure what’s gotten in to me.:roflmao:
 

GleefulGary

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Once again you bring up an example here and there. If we looked at all the players that had questionable strength coming into the NFL most did not translate to having success as a blocker or DL. Hockenson has questionable stregrh to go along with questionable speed and measurables.

Whether you like it or not it's still a RED FLAG and actually a big one considering his best strength is supposed to be blocking.

Top 15 picks or even first round picks dont usually have as many question marks has Hockenson does. If someone does draft him in the firat round they are REACHING.

His questionable speed is above average for his position. You continue to lie about the most obvious of things.

Bench press is not a great display of functional strength. I would rather they do cleans, or squats, or even dead lifts. That matters more than the bench press in football. Now if he had gotten something like 10 reps? That would be a concern. As it is, he's fine.

I went over his measurable earlier. They're fine, within the benchmark. I mean, if he weighs 3 more pounds he's at the average? Who cares. Hand size? Who cares. He's shown on film he's very good at catching the ball. It's not an issue.

This conversation isn't worth it. If you think 68th percentile speed is questionable, well...I can't fix that kind of stupid.
 

Dantés

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People can't watch Hockenson play and honestly say that his strength is deficient.
 
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People can't watch Hockenson play and honestly say that his strength is deficient.
Oh no. He’s just fine. I don’t think Hockenson dropped so much as Fant rose to the occasion. Fant definitely evened the score some today. I’d be very pleased right now if I was his agent.
 

Dantés

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Oh no. He’s just fine. I don’t think Hockenson dropped so much as Fant rose to the occasion. Fant definitely evened the score some today. I’d be very pleased right now if I was his agent

I think you're right that he will rise after this showing. He's not going to move all that much for me as I already knew he was a freak.
 

Dantés

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If the answer ends up being "neither," then I still really like Irv Smith as an H and Kahale Warring as a Y.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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If the answer ends up being "neither," then I still really like Irv Smith as an H and Kahale Warring as a Y.

For the Packers, I actually look at it as more of a question: Are Hochenson, Fant or Smith value enough to take with a first round pick? I think all 3 will be there when the Packers pick at 12, probably 2 at 30, but all 3 will be gone when the Packers pick at 44.

Where as Warring I think might be better value as a 3rd-5th round pick. Warring has only been playing football for 4 years (started his senior year in H.S.) and was playing in a very run oriented offense at San Diego State, his upside could be pretty big IMO. If the plan is to keep Graham at least another year, Warring would have more time to keep learning.
 
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Dantés

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For the Packers, I actually look at it as more of a question: Are Hochenson, Fant or Smith value enough to take with a first round pick? I think all 3 will be there when the Packers pick at 12, probably 2 at 30, but all 3 will be gone when the Packers pick at 44.

Where as Warring I think might be better value as a 3rd-5th round pick. Warring has only been playing football for 4 years (started his senior year in H.S.) and was playing in a very run oriented offense at San Diego State, his upside could be pretty big IMO. If the plan is to keep Graham at least another year, Warring would have more time to keep learning.

After coming in small and not having an amazing workout, I definitely think there's a shot that Smith is there in the 2nd round. Being 6'2" 240 is going to take him out of the running for a lot of teams looking for a Y. You almost have to view him as a separate position.

Kyle Shanahan's offense uses a fullback pretty heavily. But he prefers someone with an H Back skill set. That's why the Niners paid significant money for Kyle Juszczyk. Now he lead blocks and catches 30 passes/season. I see Irv Smith as a guy who would fill that role, but with more production in the passing game and more versatility.

As to your first question, yes I would argue that Hockenson and Fant are value enough to take in the first round. Neither are my first choice at #12 and #30 respectively, but both belong in the conversation.

Hockenson would be a great target in a trade down scenario, if that should happen to be an option.

However, the need isn't so dire that they must come out of round 1 with one of those guys. If they go different directions and end up with someone like Warring later, that's great too.
 

GleefulGary

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After coming in small and not having an amazing workout, I definitely think there's a shot that Smith is there in the 2nd round. Being 6'2" 240 is going to take him out of the running for a lot of teams looking for a Y. You almost have to view him as a separate position.

Kyle Shanahan's offense uses a fullback pretty heavily. But he prefers someone with an H Back skill set. That's why the Niners paid significant money for Kyle Juszczyk. Now he lead blocks and catches 30 passes/season. I see Irv Smith as a guy who would fill that role, but with more production in the passing game and more versatility.

As to your first question, yes I would argue that Hockenson and Fant are value enough to take in the first round. Neither are my first choice at #12 and #30 respectively, but both belong in the conversation.

Hockenson would be a great target in a trade down scenario, if that should happen to be an option.

However, the need isn't so dire that they must come out of round 1 with one of those guys. If they go different directions and end up with someone like Warring later, that's great too.

Exactly all of this. Summed it up very well.
 

Mondio

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People can't watch Hockenson play and honestly say that his strength is deficient.
Strength and leverage and how much you can bench are very different. Lifts only matter when you're lifting. Sure they can build strength, but if can't translate that to a real activity it doesn't matter. and just because a certain lift isn't your strong point, doesn't mean you're not strong. Even in to college i would regularly toss around giants in the weight room and i could believe how someone that strong was actually so weak. Of course there are people that are strong in both, many in fact, but the only time I'd think it's a big deal is if a lift is substantially lower than everyone else. If it's in line, it's fine IMO. how they use it becomes much more important on tape then comparing lifting numbers.

and Hockenson doesn't run over Dline and linebackers because he's weak in his blocking game
 

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