End of season WR2 for the packers predictions.

[gopkrs]

That and he couldn't catch.

 

[Heyjoe4]

That and he couldn't catch.

Details, details......... Yeah that’s a nice ability to have in the NCAA or NFL. Not sure if you’re referring to MVS or J Moore. J Moore was far worse, and it’s not like he didn’t get opportunities.

 

[tynimiller]

Good analysis, thanks. IMO, ESB adjusted faster to the pro game than MVS. Even in his second year, MVS looked like he was playing by NCAA rules (for example, he’d seem to forget that he needed two feet in bounds on sideline catches and failed to make the adjustment).

Some of it is probably due to maturity as well. At any rate, I think ESB is the better player between the two. And talking about maturity, that’s what kept J Moore from realizing his potential. Marginal college players who adjust quickly to the rules and speed of the NFL just do better. It’s not always a question of pure athletic talent.

Agree. MVS seems destined to never "mature" to the steward of the game like EQ had even while at ND...EQ however to be fair will never hold the "raw skills" MVS has. That is why it is insanely special when both sides of this coin are held by the same player.

 

[Do7]

Agree. MVS seems destined to never "mature" to the steward of the game like EQ had even while at ND...EQ however to be fair will never hold the "raw skills" MVS has. That is why it is insanely special when both sides of this coin are held by the same player.

While my faith has diminished with MVS I do recall the time where most Packer fans were tired of James Jones and his tendency to drop passes. While my faith in MVS is not where it was before, I am still holding out on him. I'm not ready to give up on him just yet.

 

[tynimiller]

Oh I didn't say that in order for one to discredit or have no hope it clicks for MVS. The dude still arguably is the most rawfully gifted WR in the organization, and I'm including Adams even in that.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Oh I didn't say that in order for one to discredit or have no hope it clicks for MVS. The dude still arguably is the most rawfully gifted WR in the organization, and I'm including Adams even in that.

Good point, especially with the speed MVS has. What seems to be missing is a coach who can fine tune those skills for the NFL. Either that, or MVS is lazy or too set in his ways, something I find hard to believe.

I haven’t given up on him, yet it’s year 3 and time for him to put up or move on. I mean if a Division III guy like Kumerow can make plays, why can’t a far superior athlete like MVS? I’m pretty sure he’ll make the roster - this is make or break time. Ironically, there’s not a lot he needs to change - route running and field awareness seem to be the issues. His ball tracking skills may need some work as well.

 

[Pugger]

Then if you really believe that? you can’t simultaneously have it both ways.. by also saying those are “impact”. players (which YOU argued) It’s called having your cake and eating it too.



It’s ignorant of anyone, novice fan or professional GM or Coach to expect 100% improvement from every player and that’s a stab at being totally ridiculous. This isn’t fantasy land.
At the same time? its absolutely imperative they hire the best coaches who get more out of each young draft pick as each season progresses or you cut bait. You don’t go around moping with some sort of defeatist attitude as a coach just because you didn’t get your personal draft choice of player at a particular position. I heard your exact same sentiment last season with me suggesting we grab Devante Parker to pair with Adams. I heard what a total BUST he was because he didn’t perform his ROOKIE season. Where was he drafted again? There were people in THIS very forum that called Parker a total failure because they didn’t have “PROOF”.
So I don’t apologize when I say I don’t believe you, when you use that argument, because I just watched it fail.
If you don’t expect any young players coming off Rookie seasons to improve? or coming off an early injury season to contribute much more than not playing? Then that speaks to me you don’t believe in the very fabric of drafting and development, which all 32 franchises do and do often and regularly. And if you think a day 2 WR is going to give you a better “Win Now” chance? you’ll be far more disappointed than me and the apparently the vast majority of the entire GB staff opinion of getting improvement from 1 or more of Lazard, EQ, MVS, Funchess or Begelton.

If captainWIMM doesn't believe our young players returning or the FAs we acquired this offseason will improve the WR room why do folks like him believe a rookie WR we could have drafted last April would have been appreciably better? Other than a top collegiate player drafted at the top of the draft (that we didn't have a shot at) most rookie WRs don't set the league on fire until their second or 3rd years. Lazard is a great story so far. He wasn't drafted but once he got on the field he produced and I have a feeling he will be even better doing forward. Funchness is a veteran who when healthy can be very productive. I don't think the WR room is as wanting as some others do.

 

[tynimiller]

If captainWIMM doesn't believe our young players returning or the FAs we acquired this offseason will improve the WR room why do folks like him believe a rookie WR we could have drafted last April would have been appreciably better? Other than a top collegiate player drafted at the top of the draft (that we didn't have a shot at) most rookie WRs don't set the league on fire until their second or 3rd years. Lazard is a great story so far. He wasn't drafted but once he got on the field he produced and I have a feeling he will be even better doing forward. Funchness is a veteran who when healthy can be very productive. I don't think the WR room is as wanting as some others do.

It is IMO a preference. In one breadth folks will dismiss a Free Agent signing and young development purely based on preference of how you (in their opinion) overhaul a position. I'd also argue Capt's time and time again illustrated he believes the WR room is abysmal (my assumptive word not his to be clear, he may correct me)...and to ignore such a weak position in the draft was misguided at best.

While many disagree I've long said Funchess signing is like adding a high Day 2 WR, Begelton a late (7th/UDFA) rookie draft pick...and we also have EQ coming back after illustrating promise and a connection with Aaron.

There arguably hasn't been a position added to, nor will see a fresh revamp more than WR. ILB is the one that beats it though, in essence we could end up having that position wash out with the #1-#3 guys all being new faces to the team.

 

[Heyjoe4]

It is IMO a preference. In one breadth folks will dismiss a Free Agent signing and young development purely based on preference of how you (in their opinion) overhaul a position. I'd also argue Capt's time and time again illustrated he believes the WR room is abysmal (my assumptive word not his to be clear, he may correct me)...and to ignore such a weak position in the draft was misguided at best.

While many disagree I've long said Funchess signing is like adding a high Day 2 WR, Begelton a late (7th/UDFA) rookie draft pick...and we also have EQ coming back after illustrating promise and a connection with Aaron.

There arguably hasn't been a position added to, nor will see a fresh revamp more than WR. ILB is the one that beats it though, in essence we could end up having that position wash out with the #1-#3 guys all being new faces to the team.

Well said by you and Pugger. Even if Gluten had drafted a WR in round 1, it was gonna be a late round pick. The average production for round 1 and 2 rookies is about 500 yards. And you make a good argument for why the WR room isn’t as woeful as a lot of us thought (and that includes me).

That doesn’t change my opinion that trading up to draft Love was a mistake, or at best, 2 years too soon. But even if they had drafted a WR in round 1, it likely wouldn’t have helped much this year.

Capt has said that Gluten drafted a bunch of backups. There’s truth to that but depth is also important. And Dillon was a great pick, or so it seems now. Gluten has to deal with 2021 with the decisions he makes now. He can’t sign all the FAs next year, and Jones is the most likely casualty. So the Dillon pick makes sense.

All around I’d say the draft was disappointing, or at least bizarre. But I trust the GM and HC have better insight than any of us.

 

[OldSchool101]

we get to complain in public

I said novice fans OR Coaches.. the connector “OR” means one, the other or both, not all only both jusf for mathematical purposes, but you other sentential logic posters can check me on that
Listen, you can complain all you want, but number one it doesn’t look good and expect to be humbled when GB doesn’t have a #2 WR finishing at 480 yards. You complainers make it sound like we got significantly worse, so I guess we can expect 380 yards for our #2 WR this season?

It doesn't appear you have much faith in these 3rd year guys either.

Actually I like our chances. That’s why I’ve been defending this crop. That’s also coming from me, who guessed we should go after Tee Higgins in a trade back. But I’m realistic, he’s not going to single handily take us to a SB either and I’m wise enough to temper my expectations even though we didn’t select one on the draft (we did in FA).

our guys are all 5th round or later their odds of success are lower.

I do agree in general that the later the round the bigger the hill, but no they’re not, TWO Packer WR are 2nd round draft selections.

What Rookies we don't have anyone coming off of Rookie seasons they all have been here for two years and didn't improve from their rookie season to last year.

You forgot about EQ. He only played his Rookie season (but he has the benefit of 3 offseason programs)

just because you want a team to draft a player at a position were your current players have not played well at so far.....that also happens to be the deepest position in the entire draft possibly the richest draft at that position ever does not mean you don't believe in draft and develop.

Nithing wrong with wanting a player to get drafted to bolster a position, I was in that group myself. But as we come to the reality we see the bigger picture.
1. Begelton is likely better than Shepherd and he was signed late last season. At the very least he’s good on ST which Shepherd wasn’t and he also catches everything thrown his way (so to speak) which Shepherd or Moore also didn’t. Begelton is the antithesis of Moore/Shepherd who competed for #6. He’s both good at ST and has a high catch rate (which totally transitions to the NFL from CFL).
2. Funchess was brought in to bolster the group with a veteran presence. He is more NFL proven than anyone not named Adams and he wasn’t even
in the WR group last season
3. Lazard finished the year strong and is poised to get more reps and improve his game.
4. EQ didn’t play regular season 2019 and showed promise his 2018 Rookie season. He has also been praised by Rodgers and should benefit from 3 offseason programs, so you can discount me on that.. ... but you’re also discounting our QB’s opinion as well.
5. While MVS is somewhat speculative, his speed/measurables are clearly NFL grade. It’s actually pleasing to say this season he’s in that #5-#6 range verses last year more the #3-4 range. He’s got stiff competition this season and he best bring his A game day 1.

The beauty of this is unlike what Captain snd several others are portraying, we don’t need all 5 guys behind Adams to improve drastically. We need 1 guy not named Adams to shine. A slight improvement from any others is just a bonus. If we can get 2250+ from our top 3 WR were in good shape. If we can get 2500+ there’s going to be some serious backpedaling going on in here and I won’t say I told you so once, I don’t need to, I’m saying I told you so now. If we finish below 2,000 yards (roughly our 2019 finish) for our top 3? I’ll crawl in a hole and throw up and probably be *****ing with everyone else by seasons end.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I said novice fans OR Coaches.. the connector “OR” means one, the other or both, not all only both jusf for mathematical purposes, but you other sentential logic posters can check me on that
Listen, you can complain all you want, but number one it doesn’t look good and expect to be humbled when GB doesn’t have a #2 WR finishing at 480 yards. You complainers make it sound like we got significantly worse, so I guess we can expect 380 yards for our #2 WR this season?

Actually I like our chances. That’s why I’ve been defending this crop. That’s also coming from me, who guessed we should go after Tee Higgins in a trade back. But I’m realistic, he’s not going to single handily take us to a SB either and I’m wise enough to temper my expectations even though we didn’t select one on the draft (we did in FA).

I do agree in general that the later the round the bigger the hill, but no they’re not, TWO Packer WR are 2nd round draft selections.

You forgot about EQ. He only played his Rookie season (but he has the benefit of 3 offseason programs)

Nithing wrong with wanting a player to get drafted to bolster a position, I was in that group myself. But as we come to the reality we see the bigger picture.
1. Begelton is likely better than Shepherd and he was signed late last season. At the very least he’s good on ST which Shepherd wasn’t and he also catches everything thrown his way (so to speak) which Shepherd or Moore also didn’t. Begelton is the antithesis of Moore/Shepherd who competed for #6. He’s both good at ST and has a high catch rate (which totally transitions to the NFL from CFL).
2. Funchess was brought in to bolster the group with a veteran presence. He is more NFL proven than anyone not named Adams and he wasn’t even
in the WR group last season
3. Lazard finished the year strong and is poised to get more reps and improve his game.
4. EQ didn’t play regular season 2019 and showed promise his 2018 Rookie season. He has also been praised by Rodgers and should benefit from 3 offseason programs, so you can discount me on that.. ... but you’re also discounting our QB’s opinion as well.
5. While MVS is somewhat speculative, his speed/measurables are clearly NFL grade. It’s actually pleasing to say this season he’s in that #5-#6 range verses last year more the #3-4 range. He’s got stiff competition this season and he best bring his A game day 1.

The beauty of this is unlike what Captain snd several others are portraying, we don’t need all 5 guys behind Adams to improve drastically. We need 1 guy not named Adams to shine. A slight improvement from any others is just a bonus. If we can get 2250+ from our top 3 WR were in good shape. If we can get 2500+ there’s going to be some serious backpedaling going on in here and I won’t say I told you so once, I don’t need to, I’m saying I told you so now. If we finish below 2,000 yards (roughly our 2019 finish) for our top 3? I’ll crawl in a hole and throw up and probably be *****ing with everyone else by seasons end.

You make a good point about only needing one solid #2 behind Adams, and you outline plenty of ways that could happen with the current group. While I still don’t like the round 1 pick, I’m not convinced adding a receiver late in round one would materially change the WR group. Anyway, nice analysis.

 

[OldSchool101]

You make a good point about only needing one solid #2 behind Adams, and you outline plenty of ways that could happen with the current group. While I still don’t like the round 1 pick, I’m not convinced adding a receiver late in round one would materially change the WR group. Anyway, nice analysis.

I think we all wanted a bonafied #2 WR and it’s not like there weren’t options, so I get it. But like anything in life let’s move on and focus on what’s in front of us. We don’t even 100% know if we’re officially done improving the roster, if we recall last year there were trades going on much later than this.

Another thing that didn’t help was where we picked late in each round. In Gute's Defense, he said he tried to move up for one day 2 but couldn’t get a deal done. We have to remember that the draft is live and these GM’s are dealing with the clock and also we don’t know how ridiculous any counter offers were. I personally had lots of trade back ideas, but that doesn’t mean they fit with the reality of teams jockeying around the board. Would we want Gute to reach heavy or trade away future picks? Sometimes no deal is better than overpaying and God may have a better long-term plan than our pee brains can surmise.
I would’ve hated us reaching in the draft (trading future selections or multiple selections etc..) only to overlap current guys who are primed to make that next jump. That reminds me a little of what happened there with Rashan last season and Love this season. Arguably very slight reaches and even worse, warming the bench..not good.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think we all wanted a bonafied #2 WR and it’s not like there weren’t options, so I get it. But like anything in life let’s move on and focus on what’s in front of us. We don’t even 100% know if we’re officially done improving the roster, if we recall last year there were trades going on much later than this.

Another thing that didn’t help was where we picked late in each round. In Gute's Defense, he said he tried to move up for one day 2 but couldn’t get a deal done. We have to remember that the draft is live and these GM’s are dealing with the clock and also we don’t know how ridiculous any counter offers were. I personally had lots of trade back ideas, but that doesn’t mean they fit with the reality of teams jockeying around the board. Would we want Gute to reach heavy or trade away future picks? Sometimes no deal is better than overpaying and God may have a better long-term plan than our pee brains can surmise.
I would’ve hated us reaching in the draft (trading future selections or multiple selections etc..) only to overlap current guys who are primed to make that next jump. That reminds me a little of what happened there with Rashan last season and Love this season. Arguably very slight reaches and even worse, warming the bench..not good.

Yeah I guess sometimes the best deal you can make is not to make one. Look at how the Bears are paying for giving up so much draft capital for Mack. No thanks. The draft is still the best, or at least the less expensive way of building or adding to a roster.

 

[OldSchool101]

Yeah I guess sometimes the best deal you can make is not to make one. Look at how the Bears are paying for giving up so much draft capital for Mack. No thanks. The draft is still the best, or at least the less expensive way of building or adding to a roster.

True that. That Mack trade is a big part of why Chicago has suffered. Losing multiple day 1 selections was a costly endeavor that looked worthy initially, but the losses are still being realized.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

While my faith has diminished with MVS I do recall the time where most Packer fans were tired of James Jones and his tendency to drop passes. While my faith in MVS is not where it was before, I am still holding out on him. I'm not ready to give up on him just yet.

The issue with MVS isn't drops but not knowing the playbook though.

If captainWIMM doesn't believe our young players returning or the FAs we acquired this offseason will improve the WR room why do folks like him believe a rookie WR we could have drafted last April would have been appreciably better?

It's realistic to expect a first round pick in a draft extremely deep at the position to have a bigger impact than some day three picks who haven't been able to take advantage of a weak position group in two seasons.

The average production for round 1 and 2 rookies is about 500 yards.

But even if they had drafted a WR in round 1, it likely wouldn’t have helped much this year.

Capt has said that Gluten drafted a bunch of backups. There’s truth to that but depth is also important.

It doesn't make sense to use the average production of first and second round rookie wide receivers as evidence for one of them being able to have a significant impact for the Packers. Of course the team needs to select the right one but it's definitely possible to make it work.

Just take last year as an example, five receivers drafted in the first or second round would have ranked second on the Packers in receiving yards. With this year's class considered to be extremely deep Gutekunst should have taken a chance on the position.

The beauty of this is unlike what Captain snd several others are portraying, we don’t need all 5 guys behind Adams to improve drastically. We need 1 guy not named Adams to shine.

The Packers need a decent #2 wide receiver and improvement at every other spot on the depth chart as well for the passing offense to be significantly improved, especially considering they don't have a proven pass catching tight end either.

 

[Pugger]

The issue with MVS isn't drops but not knowing the playbook though.



It's realistic to expect a first round pick in a draft extremely deep at the position to have a bigger impact than some day three picks who haven't been able to take advantage of a weak position group in two seasons.



It doesn't make sense to use the average production of first and second round rookie wide receivers as evidence for one of them being able to have a significant impact for the Packers. Of course the team needs to select the right one but it's definitely possible to make it work.

Just take last year as an example, five receivers drafted in the first or second round would have ranked second on the Packers in receiving yards. With this year's class considered to be extremely deep Gutekunst should have taken a chance on the position.



The Packers need a decent #2 wide receiver and improvement at every other spot on the depth chart as well for the passing offense to be significantly improved, especially considering they don't have a proven pass catching tight end either.

Do you believe a seasoned NFL veteran WR (or a fella that played in the CFL) won't have an impact on this position? It appeared to me Gute, after his first round rated WRs were gone decided to go after a potential starter at QB. Was that a mistake? We won't know for sure for a while. In subsequent rounds when our turn came I'm going to guess he had players at other positions rated higher than any WR still available so he went in another direction. You seem to believe a rookie WR from this draft is going to better than anyone else presently in our WR room this side of D. Adams. You lament about not having a proven pass catching TE on the roster. Last season we drafted a TE but he is about as unproven as any of the WRs in this past draft too.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Do you believe a seasoned NFL veteran WR (or a fella that played in the CFL) won't have an impact on this position? It appeared to me Gute, after his first round rated WRs were gone decided to go after a potential starter at QB. Was that a mistake? We won't know for sure for a while. You seem to believe a rookie WR from this draft is going to better than anyone else presently in our WR room this side of D. Adams. You lament about not having a proven pass catching TE on the roster. Last season we drafted a TE but he is about as unproven as any of the WRs in this past draft too.

Funchess has the chance to have a bigger impact than receivers drafted in this year's first round but Begelton is a long shot to even make the roster.

Gutekunst trading up to select a quarterback was a mistake when talking about the chances to win a Super Bowl with Rodgers, no matter how the move works out in the long haul. It was especially mind-boggling considering the Packers made it to the NFCCG last year.

First of all Sternberger was a third round pick and on top of it it's common knowledge that it takes tight ends significantly longer to have an impact at the pro level.

 

[jon]

That Mack trade is a big part of why Chicago has suffered. Losing multiple day 1 selections was a costly endeavor that looked worthy initially, but the losses are still being realized.

As a Packer fan, I love how this trade worked out for Chicago. In addition to costing the picks, Mack's performance has been ordinary.

I watched all of the Bear's games this past month and paid close attention to Mack. He is single blocked almost all the time and is not particularly effective. Through the middle of the season he went something nine or ten games with only two sacks. Looked like an average line backer out there.

 

[OldSchool101]

The Packers need a decent #2 wide receiver and improvement at every other spot on the depth chart as well for the passing offense to be significantly improved, especially considering they don't have a proven pass catching tight end either.

I don’t agree with that. Rodgers threw for 4000 yards in 2019.
If the Packers get #1 Adams back in that 1250+ yards range and they can get roughly 750+ yards out of a #2 WR. If the #3 to #6 WR remain identical and the #1 and #2 TE match Graham’s mediocre yardage?
That puts Rodgers passing for roughly 4,500 yards and 30 TD’s... not including our running game, which should conceivably be a smidge better.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

As a Packer fan, I love how this trade worked out for Chicago. In addition to costing the picks, Mack's performance has been ordinary.

Mack was special during his first season with the Bears in 2018 but regressed last year. There's no doubt Chicago gave up way too much to acquire him though.

I don’t agree with that. Rodgers threw for 4000 yards in 2019.
If the Packers get #1 Adams back in that 1250+ yards range and they can get roughly 750+ yards out of a #2 WR. If the #3 to #6 WR remain identical and the #1 and #2 TE match Graham’s mediocre yardage?
That puts Rodgers passing for roughly 4,500 yards and 30 TD’s... not including our running game, which should conceivably be a smidge better.

Rodgers yards per attempt is the number we should concentrate on instead of total yards. His average of 7.03 in 2019 was the second lowest of his career, only behind 2015 when Nelson missed the entire year and the receiving corps lack talent as well.

While the running game might produce improve in yards per attempt I don't expect the Packers to be among the league leaders in touchdowns once again.

 

[Fredrik87]

I found a interesting video on Lazard if anyone is interested

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[gopkrs]

Pretty good video but a little long for me. He says that Lazard high points the ball well. What he does not say is that Lazard has very good hands and concentration. Could be a breakout year but (again) I say he needs the go ahead to change the route when the plan is not going to get him open. Unless, of course, it is strictly a timing route. (please don't say they are all timing routes).

 

[HardRightEdge]

I found a interesting video on Lazard if anyone is interested

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

I'm wondering who will be running out of the slot. None of the incumbents look like a good fit; they're all long striders. There's Adams, money out of the slot, but that should be only occasionally as in the past.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

If the Packers offense is going to be great this year then the 2nd WR need to be either MVS or ESB; cause if it's Lazard then that means the Packers #2 receiver was basically a TE who can't block and if it's Jones again then Gute really f'd up.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I'm wondering who will be running out of the slot. None of the incumbents look like a good fit; they're all long striders. There's Adams, money out of the slot, but that should be only occasionally as in the past.

I'm guessing Gute won't be using many 3 receiver sets. His preferred offense seems to go more toward 2/1 or 1/2 sets.