Dumervile to Green Bay?

[elcid]

This is the only move I would like to see TT make. Adding some proven veteran presence at the EDGE with our 2 only legit pass rushers being injury prone as hell will leave a lot of pressure on our younger linebackers. Im fine with our RB and Secondary situation as it is.

 

[Half Empty]

Why are you trying to get older there are capable guys on the team our problems are scheme not players and get rid of guion I've never seen a 340 pound guy not be able to rush the qb

Thank you, e e cummings. I think the last part of the ramble says no 340 pounder failed to rush the QB? Don't think that opinion is going to hold up very well.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Why are you trying to get older there are capable guys on the team our problems are scheme not players and get rid of guion I've never seen a 340 pound guy not be able to rush the qb

Not sure how relying on younger players to play any better than vets if it's a scheme issue will resolve any of the problems that the Packers defense saw last year, while trying to over rely on younger players.

It's great to have up and coming talent on the Packers roster, but if they aren't ready to step up and contribute like a seasoned vet, they should just be considered an extension of the Practice squad.

 

[ExpatPacker]

With Vince Biegel breaking his foot, the Packers may want to go after Dumervil.

 

[OldSchool101]

I'm running out of things to say here but I'm hoping the energy from this post will push us over the edge on this signing!

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I think a veteran like dummerville in the rotation would pay great dividends. While also providing good insurance for the position...

We have the cap space to grab a couple more guys from the bargain bin, while still being able to carry over some cap space into next year to re-up #12 between now and then.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Dumervil has signed with the Niners.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Dumervil has signed with the Niners.

Doesn't surprise me that Dumervil was never really linked to the Packers after watching TT do nothing other than draft Biegel to address what many have perceived as a big need at OLB. I guess we have to rely on TT knowing what he is doing and that the current group at OLB will be sufficient enough to improve the defense over last years. But I will be keeping a close eye on both Barwin and Dumervil to see what types of seasons they put together. I just hope by mid season our corp of OLB's are so strong, it won't matter and I can't stop playing the "if only had we had signed....." game.

 

[pizzle]

Dumervil has signed with the Niners.

This signing by SF, along with how things have gone in the past, pretty much tells me the defense is what it's gonna be from a talent standpoint. We're prolly not gonna add anything else of significance, and we'll be basically doing the same thing with the CB position that we did a few years ago (as in letting it be dangerously thin of experienced, quality depth when we let Williams, House and Casey walk) with the OLB position. Alot of things have to go right/we have to get very lucky w/ injuries and play of young guys in order to even have a middling defense. And even if everything swings our way, the defense still looks quite vulnerable to late-season, late game breakdowns/letdowns due simply to not having enough talented pass rushers. *Long sigh*...

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I am still shocked that the Packers have done very little at OLB. I thought that after the lackluster season the position had last season combined with losing both Peppers and Jones, who between them played a lot of snaps, the Packers would at least bring in one vet FA. Using a 4th rounder (one who is now injured) isn't exactly throwing many resources at the need. Obviously, it isn't September yet and that possibility will still be there, but i doubt the quality of available OLB's available in September will be anything that special.

 

[pizzle]

This is how I envision Ted wanting the defense to pan out this season. I'll focus on the "40 sack output" stat (that is a valid barometer on a significant enough part of the overall defensive outlook) in my synopsis.

Ted is gambling. More specifically, he's banking on addition by subtraction. By letting go of the elephants, he saves some cap space coin that he can use to extend other key players on the team due to become FAs that have been mentioned before. It also makes Capers use all of the DLs at his disposal on the roster; this thinking justifies signing RJF, restructuring Guion and drafting Adams. The Pack will have alot of bang for the buck on the DL this season-since Mike Daniels is the only one with a big contract-and will probably sport a 7-man rotation regularly throughout the season, playing 3 at a time on 1st/2nd downs, then on 3rd down passing situations, the big guys get subbed out for 2 interior speed rusher guys (likely Perry & Elliott). Let RJF/Kenny/Mike start. Have Adams, Price and Lowry be the backups. LDE, NT, RDE. Keep Ringo until Guion gets off suspension, then cut him.

Back to more addition by subtraction talk. Letting Peppers and Jones go gives opportunities for snaps to guys like Elliot, Fackrell, Gilbert and/or rookies (Biegel/Calvin??). That way, the D&D approach continues to dictate our roster/drive salary down instead of up because plenty of guys on either rookie contracts/cheap prove-it deals get PT-o-Plenty.

The key to TT's thinking is Nick and Clay, his USC money boys. Nick got double digit sacks last year, and in Ted's eye showed he could play Robin to CM3's Batman. So he cashed him out, and now expects the pair to run off in the sunset together, as a sack tandem made in heaven.

The problem with this logic is obviously Nick and Clay. Realistically the duo would need to amass somewhere close to 20-25 sacks between them in order to take the pressure off of the rest of the defenders in at least matching the 40 sack total from last season. Since Clay has not shown he can stay on the field consistently lately, let alone be a double-digit sack force, this logic seems illegitimately faulty. If Clay isn't on the field, Nick will be game-planned and probably neutralized often by pass protection schemes. The defense is being built by Ted around these two guys, but it should be built in reaction to these two and their inconsistencies. Not getting veteran OLB help is a cost-cutting move that puts the very foundation of the 3-4 defense we run on shaky ground, which what is so frustrating. If Ted is right, he looks like a savvy GM that knows where to pinch pennies. But if he's wrong, our defense could look really bad, even with better DL/secondary play. That will be a shame, especially if some of the veteran OLB-types that we may have been able to grab/keep from our own team have productive seasons this year.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

This is how I envision Ted wanting the defense to pan out this season. I'll focus on the "40 sack output" stat (that is a valid barometer on a significant enough part of the overall defensive outlook) in my synopsis.

Ted is gambling. More specifically, he's banking on addition by subtraction. By letting go of the elephants, he saves some cap space coin that he can use to extend other key players on the team due to become FAs that have been mentioned before. It also makes Capers use all of the DLs at his disposal on the roster; this thinking justifies signing RJF, restructuring Guion and drafting Adams. The Pack will have alot of bang for the buck on the DL this season-since Mike Daniels is the only one with a big contract-and will probably sport a 7-man rotation regularly throughout the season, playing 3 at a time on 1st/2nd downs, then on 3rd down passing situations, the big guys get subbed out for 2 interior speed rusher guys (likely Perry & Elliott). Let RJF/Kenny/Mike start. Have Adams, Price and Lowry be the backups. LDE, NT, RDE. Keep Ringo until Guion gets off suspension, then cut him.

Back to more addition by subtraction talk. Letting Peppers and Jones go gives opportunities for snaps to guys like Elliot, Fackrell, Gilbert and/or rookies (Biegel/Calvin??). That way, the D&D approach continues to dictate our roster/drive salary down instead of up because plenty of guys on either rookie contracts/cheap prove-it deals get PT-o-Plenty.

The key to TT's thinking is Nick and Clay, his USC money boys. Nick got double digit sacks last year, and in Ted's eye showed he could play Robin to CM3's Batman. So he cashed him out, and now expects the pair to run off in the sunset together, as a sack tandem made in heaven.

The problem with this logic is obviously Nick and Clay. Realistically the duo would need to amass somewhere close to 20-25 sacks between them in order to take the pressure off of the rest of the defenders in at least matching the 40 sack total from last season. Since Clay has not shown he can stay on the field consistently lately, let alone be a double-digit sack force, this logic seems illegitimately faulty. If Clay isn't on the field, Nick will be game-planned and probably neutralized often by pass protection schemes. The defense is being built by Ted around these two guys, but it should be built in reaction to these two and their inconsistencies. Not getting veteran OLB help is a cost-cutting move that puts the very foundation of the 3-4 defense we run on shaky ground, which what is so frustrating. If Ted is right, he looks like a savvy GM that knows where to pinch pennies. But if he's wrong, our defense could look really bad, even with better DL/secondary play. That will be a shame, especially if some of the veteran OLB-types that we may have been able to grab/keep from our own team have productive seasons this year.

Good analysis and in summary, TT is placing a lot of the success of the defense on:

1. Perry and Matthews both remaining relatively healthy.
2. Perry and Matthews both playing like Perry played last year and Matthews played prior to 2015.
3. Someone other than Nick or Clay stepping up their game.

If Matthews was playing like the stud he once was, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this approach. I just have my doubts that the stars will align and all of the things that have to happen will. A situation that could easily have been at least hedged against with the signing of a mid level veteran. Although that may still happen, it's disappointing and a bit of a head scratcher that it hasn't. The other aspect of this scenario is that the Packers did nothing (obvious) to improve the ILB position, so if there is an issue at that position, can you move Matthews over if they are already weak at OLB? At least having Peppers and Jones allowed for that.

 

[Mavster]

Our pass rusher is going to be rough this coming season.

 

[pizzle]

The other aspect of this scenario is that the Packers did nothing (obvious) to improve the ILB position, so if there is an issue at that position, can you move Matthews over if they are already weak at OLB? At least having Peppers and Jones allowed for that.

Exactly. What if any combo of Jake/Blake/Joe Thomas/Morgan Burnett has a significant injury that knocks them out of the lineup? Or what if Jake and Blake regress badly like the young corners did last season? You'd prolly want to move Clay inside-but how can you do that with how thin we are at outside backer? CM3 essentially has to be penciled in at ROLB on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down for 75% of his snaps now. The only time you wanna move him now is in certain exotic packages Dom creates to fulfill a matchup advantage out of a disadvantage with certain teams.

TT has taken away a good bit of the flexibility our defense had, besides just the production. I mean, If he simply would have brought back Julius Peppers on a 1 yr deal (I suspect JP would have been fine coming back to GB, but for probably at least 5 million/he gave Carolina a "hometown discount" since GB didn't give him an offer) and drafted another body that could have played OLB in pass rushing scenarios for our scheme we'd be able to continue to move Clay around. Avery Moss (graded at 5.4 to VB's 5.2 on NFL.com) has the size of Nick Perry and could potentially be a good EDGE player-Jordan Evans (5.4 to VB's 5.2 grade) out of Oklahoma looks the part of a speed/athletic prospect that you could line up at ROLB on 3rd & long and tell "you're either gonna go chase the QB, chase a pass catcher, or be a spy" + he could do it-Josh Carraway out of TCU (5.2 grade)-or Keion Adams from Western Michigan (5.3 to VB's 5.2 grade) ALL could have been drafted after we selected VB in the 4th round. To me, any/all of the picks after Biegel were not absolute must haves. Even the RBs/Dupree with our last pick. If we would have, say, drafted Keion Adams instead of Mays and TT drafted exactly how he ended up doing otherwise I'd be more understanding of how we have approached the position this off-season. But we chose VB over a guy like Carl Lawson, we ONLY grabbed one EDGE rusher via the draft in total, and VB already is getting dinged up/having surgeries before they even have put on pads in practice this off-season. Smh...

JP is well worth 3.5 mil a year. Even at 5-6 mil a year I would have taken his production from last year/his overall production as a Packer/vet leadership/football IQ/potential big play ability in clutch situations. TT not bringing him back makes no sense. Oh, and we also let Dumvervil go to San Francisco-they don't even need the guy if you look at their roster. All of this honestly pigeonholes CM3 to either be a stud at OLB, or be an albatross that is one of the main reasons why our D sucks and we waste another year in AR12's prime.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Doesn't surprise me that Dumervil was never really linked to the Packers after watching TT do nothing other than draft Biegel to address what many have perceived as a big need at OLB. I guess we have to rely on TT knowing what he is doing and that the current group at OLB will be sufficient enough to improve the defense over last years. But I will be keeping a close eye on both Barwin and Dumervil to see what types of seasons they put together. I just hope by mid season our corp of OLB's are so strong, it won't matter and I can't stop playing the "if only had we had signed....." game.

Unfortunately recent history indicates that Thompson has been wrong more often than not when gambling on a position group on defense over the past few years.

The other aspect of this scenario is that the Packers did nothing (obvious) to improve the ILB position, so if there is an issue at that position, can you move Matthews over if they are already weak at OLB?

The Packers added Josh Jones to line up at inside linebacker on passing plays and plan on using Burnett in a hybrid role as well as Ryan and Martinez for the majority of snaps on early downs. While that isn't an elite group by any means I'm fine with it and don't see any reason to move Matthews inside as he's average at best plaing the position.

 

[gbgary]

signed with sf.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

signed with sf.

That information was posted on this page yesterday.

 

[Dantés]

Exactly. What if any combo of Jake/Blake/Joe Thomas/Morgan Burnett has a significant injury that knocks them out of the lineup? Or what if Jake and Blake regress badly like the young corners did last season? You'd prolly want to move Clay inside-but how can you do that with how thin we are at outside backer? CM3 essentially has to be penciled in at ROLB on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down for 75% of his snaps now. The only time you wanna move him now is in certain exotic packages Dom creates to fulfill a matchup advantage out of a disadvantage with certain teams.

TT has taken away a good bit of the flexibility our defense had, besides just the production. I mean, If he simply would have brought back Julius Peppers on a 1 yr deal (I suspect JP would have been fine coming back to GB, but for probably at least 5 million/he gave Carolina a "hometown discount" since GB didn't give him an offer) and drafted another body that could have played OLB in pass rushing scenarios for our scheme we'd be able to continue to move Clay around. Avery Moss (graded at 5.4 to VB's 5.2 on NFL.com) has the size of Nick Perry and could potentially be a good EDGE player-Jordan Evans (5.4 to VB's 5.2 grade) out of Oklahoma looks the part of a speed/athletic prospect that you could line up at ROLB on 3rd & long and tell "you're either gonna go chase the QB, chase a pass catcher, or be a spy" + he could do it-Josh Carraway out of TCU (5.2 grade)-or Keion Adams from Western Michigan (5.3 to VB's 5.2 grade) ALL could have been drafted after we selected VB in the 4th round. To me, any/all of the picks after Biegel were not absolute must haves. Even the RBs/Dupree with our last pick. If we would have, say, drafted Keion Adams instead of Mays and TT drafted exactly how he ended up doing otherwise I'd be more understanding of how we have approached the position this off-season. But we chose VB over a guy like Carl Lawson, we ONLY grabbed one EDGE rusher via the draft in total, and VB already is getting dinged up/having surgeries before they even have put on pads in practice this off-season. Smh...

JP is well worth 3.5 mil a year. Even at 5-6 mil a year I would have taken his production from last year/his overall production as a Packer/vet leadership/football IQ/potential big play ability in clutch situations. TT not bringing him back makes no sense. Oh, and we also let Dumvervil go to San Francisco-they don't even need the guy if you look at their roster. All of this honestly pigeonholes CM3 to either be a stud at OLB, or be an albatross that is one of the main reasons why our D sucks and we waste another year in AR12's prime.

It's a stretch to me to think that the success or failure of the EDGE position in 2017 stands on whether or not the Packers spent a pick at 134 or later on the position.

 

[SD Cheesehead]

I still think the biggest mistake isn't so much not signing Dumervil but missing out on Connor Barwin who signed for somewhere around 3.5 million. A veteran pass rusher who's best years were in 3-4 defense, wouldn't have cost us a compensatory pick, and is rarely injured. Would have given us GREAT depth and flexibility on defense including CM3 to middle linebacker once in awhile with barwin and Perry at OLB's. Along with our d line rotation to keep guys fresh and hopefully a much more healthy and athletic secondary Capers could have really opened up the playbook and kept defenses off balance. 3.5 million with 18.5 available is chump change. Ted failed miserably on that move

 

[Dantés]

I still think the biggest mistake isn't so much not signing Dumervil but missing out on Connor Barwin who signed for somewhere around 3.5 million. A veteran pass rusher who's best years were in 3-4 defense, wouldn't have cost us a compensatory pick, and is rarely injured. Would have given us GREAT depth and flexibility on defense including CM3 to middle linebacker once in awhile with barwin and Perry at OLB's. Along with our d line rotation to keep guys fresh and hopefully a much more healthy and athletic secondary Capers could have really opened up the playbook and kept defenses off balance. 3.5 million with 18.5 available is chump change. Ted failed miserably on that move

Yeah, I thought that Barwin would have been a good addition.

 

[gbgary]

That information was posted on this page yesterday.

d'oh!

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

It's a stretch to me to think that the success or failure of the EDGE position in 2017 stands on whether or not the Packers spent a pick at 134 or later on the position.

All this talk about how we need an edge rusher. I forgot we have Perry, and CMIII...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I still think the biggest mistake isn't so much not signing Dumervil but missing out on Connor Barwin who signed for somewhere around 3.5 million. A veteran pass rusher who's best years were in 3-4 defense, wouldn't have cost us a compensatory pick, and is rarely injured. Would have given us GREAT depth and flexibility on defense including CM3 to middle linebacker once in awhile with barwin and Perry at OLB's. Along with our d line rotation to keep guys fresh and hopefully a much more healthy and athletic secondary Capers could have really opened up the playbook and kept defenses off balance. 3.5 million with 18.5 available is chump change. Ted failed miserably on that move

I would have preferred the Packers to sign Dumervil over Barwin but agree that the team should have added a veteran pass rusher this offseason.

 

[pizzle]

I still think the biggest mistake isn't so much not signing Dumervil but missing out on Connor Barwin who signed for somewhere around 3.5 million. A veteran pass rusher who's best years were in 3-4 defense, wouldn't have cost us a compensatory pick, and is rarely injured. Would have given us GREAT depth and flexibility on defense including CM3 to middle linebacker once in awhile with barwin and Perry at OLB's. Along with our d line rotation to keep guys fresh and hopefully a much more healthy and athletic secondary Capers could have really opened up the playbook and kept defenses off balance. 3.5 million with 18.5 available is chump change. Ted failed miserably on that move

A different look at how the off-season could have went besides Option 2. Option 2 is what we stand at right now w/ FA & the draft.

My Option 1:

FA:

We start off by bringing back Julius. 2 years 10 million. He retires a Packer. With at least 1 SB ring. Nuff said, for now...

We let Datone walk. We bring back Jayrone at the same rate we did, but we also LET NICK WALK. He has shown to not be an elite, Top 3-5 EDGE rusher, so why pay him like one when the only thing he does really, really good is set the edge in the run game? Letting some other team give him a huge contract ends up being the cost-cutting move that we make this off-season. BTW, this move maybe allows us to decide to be more aggressive in getting closer to what the Lions threw at T.J. Lang to get him to go to Detroit.

We sign Connor Barwin or Elvis Dumervil. Same deal as JP. Now, we have replaced Datone w/ a more decorated vet that's proven he can get sacks. Upgrade. More on that later...

Everything else in the off-season goes as status quo (The TEs, House, etc.)...

DRAFT:

We trade out of the 1st, but instead of King we draft Jordan Willis. He steps in right away at starting LOLB. He is a stud, a rich man's Nick Perry with similar strength but 4.53 40 yard frickin' SPEED! WE NEED SPEED TO GET TO THE DAMN QB!

Instead of VB as the 1st pick in Rd 4, we draft CB Damontae Kazee out of San Diego State. Good man corner who also can play zone. Will push for the starting field corner spot/prolly still moves Randall to the slot with House as the starting boundary/Gunter being the top perimeter backup corner.

Instead of Mays w/ our first 7th-round pick, we get OLB Keion Adams out of Western Michigan. More speed to get to the damn QB...

Every other pick is status quo. 5 defensive guys, 5 offensive guys. Edge rushers that can contribute now and be impactful guys later. More balanced draft, and less pressure on each player given the circumstances (I think our draft looks bad if a) King is not a Day 1 starter at corner and b) Vince Biegel ends up being essentially medically redshirted/not doing much this year) at hand.

So now, our OLB depth chart is as follows: LOLB-1) Willis 2) Peppers 3) Gilbert
ROLB-1) Elliot 2) Barwin/Elvis 3) Fackrell. Keion is stashed on the P-Squad and developed. Clay can now be restructured/extended to match his play (or lack thereof) over the past few seasons and moved inside permanently. Connor/Elvis and Julius can be used as the subpackage interior pass rushers/have their snap counts be monitored to keep them fresh and highly productive. Willis just needs to set the edge well in the run game consistently and everything else he will learn from the vets. Elliot gets to show his worth, Fackrell can continue to develop/be a core ST guy along with Jayrone. We now have the juice/athleticism/diversity in the LB core to have a 45-50 sack defense.


So, the question is, Option 1-or Option 2? And if it is Option 1-then WTF is up with Ted?!?!? Because we could have easily had Option 1. It wouldn't have been that different from Option 2 nor that hard to pull off.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

We bring back Jayrone at the same rate, but we also LET NICK WALK. He has shown to not be an elite, Top 3-5 EDGE rusher, so why pay him like one when the only thing he does really, really good is set the edge in the run game?

When healthy Perry has been a productive pass rusher as well.