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Do YOU owe Dom an apology too?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by FrankRizzo, Jan 10, 2014.

  1. Forderick

    Forderick Cheesehead

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    my whole point was that they keep doing the same things over and over again, and it just isn't working. So why keep doing it?

    It is a lot easier to replace a DC than an entire defence. And one good gameplan doesn't exclude all the bad ones.
     
  2. Forderick

    Forderick Cheesehead

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    I am not saying cut a guy right away, but after a few seasons if his work ethic is still bad, then cut him. or he just isn't grasping the concepts, then it might be time to move on.

    They need starters to be in place so the young guys can learn and develop, but when you consistently have rookies or young players starting all the time, most years it won't be a pretty sight. Now the injuries aren't helping in this but signing a few free agents, making a trade or two, and just getting some players who know the system and can help bring the younger players along.

    If we are stuck with Dom for another year, give him some help then, and help him make his system work.
     
  3. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    It seems to me that if there is blame to go around here, it's mostly on Thompson for providing Capers with nothing but young guys back there, nobody with NFL experience. Don't you think NFL experience matters!?
    Safeties, Free Agents: Pollard, Clemons, Whitner, Byrd, etc....
    Safeties provided by Ted to Dom: Burnett, MD Jennings, Jerron McMillian, Chris Banjo, Sean Richardson. You know the one with the most experience though? Jarrett Bush. There's a reason he's been basically just a special teams guy over the years (barring injuries).

    Teddy has let Dommy down by ignoring free agency like it's a highly-contagious disease.
     
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  4. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    I don't thing that anyone here is saying that it all falls on Capers' shoulders. Someone in a point listed approximately 6 or 7 reasons why this defense has been sub-par that were to the point. The problem I have is:

    a) after so many years, 1 of which includes a ton of defensive player drafts, this defense has hardly improved at all.

    b) the perception, the intuition if you like, that several players are not suited for the kinds of defense Capers runs. Case in point: Datone Jones. With my limited knowledge, his pass rushing skills became almost irrelevant in a 2-4 scheme in which he was often played.

    c) the perception that player development has been lacking. Many of our top draft choices and have not emerged--Perry, Worthy (injury), DJones-- others have regressed--Burnett, BJ Raji. That's certainly not all on Capers, but as the DC he should be overseeing his players' development, and if those coaches are not doing the job, he should be on their arse.

    d) confusion on defense, frequent miscommunication in the secondary. Why?

    And last, the general feeling that sometimes you need a change. When you try to keep following the same path that hasn't been working again and again it has a psychological effect: players lose their confidence, their commitment and their enthusiasm. They play worse. A new DC who looks and evaluates the players differently and brings new ideas to a defense may be no better than Capers, but that's not the point. You want to make players play at their best, and it just doesn't seem to be happening here.

    There are a couple of exceptions: Daniels has really emerged. Heyward was a winner from day 1. Sam Shields is near pro-bowl material. And by the football gods, I hope that Jolly's injury is not serious and that he comes back 100% next year. It will make not signing Raji so much easier.

    I also accept the points that TT shoulders as much responsibility as any for his drafting strategies and his unwillingness to sign a decent FA or two. I hope that the latter changes this year. I think that FrankRizzo's post in another thread he started should be sent officially to TT, it was a helluva post.
     
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  5. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Thank you.
    Which one?

    I did, actually, seriously, send suggestions to Thompson yesterday.
    I reminded him he didn't take my advice 2 years ago to get us Jerry Hughes, and I told him this year he needs to get us Pollard and Everson Griffen, turn back the clock 8 years to the 2006 off-season when he brought us in Woodson and Pickett via free agency.
    VETERANS who already know the NFL game and don't need diapers on for 2, 3 years like McMillian, MD, etc.
     
  6. buggybill2003

    buggybill2003 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Will he get back to you ? :p
     
  7. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    Zees one:

    http://www.packerforum.com/threads/...ason-master-plan-to-get-us-back-on-top.49989/
     
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  8. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    There's the rub. The game isn't played that way. Everybody has options depending on what the offense shows at the LOS, what the opponent in front of him is expected to do, what the opponent then does at the snap, and how the play evolves. What the guys to the left and right of you are capable of doing and what you expect them to do on that particular play as it evolves come into play. And that all takes place in a matter of a few seconds and has to be distilled down to "instincts"...it's a reaction thing not a thinking thing.

    The design of the defense, the defensive calls on a particular play, the personnel package on the field, a player's physical talents, his instincts and what the guys around him and the opponent are doing all come into play.

    It should also be noted this defense was at it's best when Woodson was freelancing as a hybrid LB...playing "outside the box" inside the box, as it were. Not everybody is given that broad latitude...the rank-and-file need to back and fill around the playmakers to some degree. In the final analysis, though, going outside the box and making plays while keeping instances of getting fooled and burned to a minimum is job of every football player to greater or lesser degrees.

    Whether it's football or otherwise, "I did my job" is never the answer.
     
  9. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    Many of your points actually indicate failing on TT's part, not Capers. If guys aren't progressing then TT chose poor players. Capers defense has developed Matthews, Daniels, Shields (let's remember he only played ONE year at corner in college), etc. It's apparent that the coaches know how to get guys to play.

    I don't understand the Jones comment. The guy is the prototype for a 3-4 DE. The only reason we played the 2-4-5 so often is because our pass rushers on the dline are so ineffective that it makes more sense to leave a linebacker in than put in a dline guy that won't accomplish anything. Only time we went to 2-4-5 was in nickel. With a healthy, performing roster of Daniels, Worthy, Jones and Boyd I would expect we'll see more 3-3-5 going forward, if not some occcasional 4-2-5 looks with Perry having his hand in the dirst on obvious passing downs.

    Confusion on defense has been covered before, there was actually a really good article from Silverstein (I think?) on JSOnline regarding the number of first year guys we have starting on defense. Again, that falls on TT.

    Just to clarify, I'm not absolving Capers of all blame, the guy is the coach after all. However, I would put the majority of the blame on the front office. Just saying we spent a bunch of picks on defensive players is an empty statement. The Lions spent a bunch of first rounders on WRs a few years ago, did they automatically get an awe-inspiring WR group?
     
  10. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    It seems like some of us are in agreement that our defense doesn't have enough talent. Anybody else not that worried about it though? TT has helped turn the team around twice after a 4-12 season and a 6-10 season. Plus, we are much closer to being very good right now than we were in those seasons. I see no reason why the team won't be turned around again.
     
  11. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    We play 2-4-5 because they want to keep two OLBs on the field whenever possible. the function is basically the same as a 4-2-5. I think the Perry hand on the dirt bit is overdone. When he's been playing, and healthy, he has been able to able to produce pressure and sacks standing up. It's just that he's much much better rushing the passer from the right side.

    As for Datone Jones, I think Daniels played him onto the bench. Mike Daniels with his 6.5 sacks relegated Jones to the role of second pass rushing DE.

    I think in the future that Dom will start using hybrid DE/OLBs. Guys who can put their hand in the dirt and hold up against the run on limited downs, and have the speed and agility to rush the passer or drop into coverage. I think the staff has Datone Jones come in lighter and faster. He'll be what Mike Neal was supposed to be, but you know, more of a man.

    I think many of those points bear an unreasonable expectation as to player development. Most Defensive players, and most draft picks, take until their second and third year to really catch on. Collins took until his 4th season to breakout for instance.

    The trouble is that we lost 3 great players to mix of age injury and sort of through FA. Nick Collins was one of the best FSs in the league, Woodson was tremendous in his free lance role and Jenkins was an outstanding DE at times. Jenkins may have left through FA but he hasn't done much since leaving GB and I actually think that his absence has helped Daniels develop faster.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  12. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    One more thing, this Defense played very well at times during this season. I think much of the poor play down the stretch occurred as a result of Rodgers getting injured, some players seemed to just quit.
     
  13. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    I don't blame the loss on Capers, and I'm not that upset about him returning.

    With that said, I'm sure most coordinators feel they could be successful with "2 or 3 playmakers.". Saying they need them to succeed doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. I'm sure most would have agreed before the season that the Saints D was less talented than ours.

    Either TT has been poor the last few years at finding NFL defensive talent in the draft, or the defensive coaches are poor at developing them, because the efforts to fix the D through the draft have been there.
     
  14. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Or the loss of a superstar Quarterback sucked the confidence out of the locker room and some key players completely flopped. Look at Raji, he was the football equivalent to Rip Van Winkle. Through the first 7 games he played very well. During Rodgers absence he was an empty jersey. Rodgers comes back and suddenly Raji emerges again, whodathunkit? Then despite missing a number of key players they were back playing at an acceptable level in the playoffs.
     
  15. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    I agree. Am I the only one that has a huge problem with this? You can't give me your all and even step up because your leader is out? Are you kidding me?

    Lack of effort should be dealt with by the leadership. I can't say for sure that there was any, but going from one of the best run D's to one of the worst is strong evidence.
     
  16. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    I think we're missing a core component in the leadership triangle. We have good steady the troops types in AJ Hawk and Ryan Pickett. We have a playmaker with a knack of producing momentum turning plays in Clay Matthews. But we're missing the vocal fire eater type to get the players pumped up before and during games. We're missing the Wayne Simmons, Nick Barnett Desmond Bishop type, the rage filled player who challenges and brings out the aggression and intensity in his teammates.
     
  17. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    In what parallel universe did Raji "emerge" when Rodgers returned?
     
  18. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    As has been pointed out he started making splash plays against the bears and then played a pretty good game against the 9ners. Consider the rushing stats in both of those two games.
     
  19. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    The rushing stats? Forte was over 100 yards and over 5 YPC. Raji made 2 tackles in each game. I suppose this is "emerging" by his standards. There was an article post 49ers game about how Pickett stepped up and the lone man on the D line who didn't was Raji.

    If either of these games was Raji's "emergence", then indeed our expectations of him have fallen on hard times.

    How can I put this eloquently? BJ Raji is not a good football player. He hasn't been since 2010. He gets highly overrated because our scheme requires nothing from him, stat wise, and in that sense he has it made.

    Can't provide any interior pass rush for 3 years? Can't shed a block and take down a ball carrier more than once a game? Can't even draw a double team anymore? No worries, its just the scheme. Was this scheme different in 2010 when he actually was making impact plays?

    Raji offers absolutely nothing in improving either the pass or rush defense. Jolly had a bigger impact than Raji turning around the run D in the first half. Raji's most useful plays are made when he lead blocks on the goal line. Paying him would be a tremendous waste of financial resources.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
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  20. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    lmao...in easy-e's universe.

    Raji was awful all year.
     
  21. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    Totally agree. I'm surprised there's talk of just not signing Jolly. Our run defense was MUCH better when he was playing and his teammates came out and said so.

    easy e...you want me to post quotes from Packer players talking about Jolly? Am I just rolling with that hyperbole again?! lol
     
  22. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    He didn't make a lot of plays in the niners game but he held his gap against a very physical O-line front, and it did show up with a much more effective run defense. Did I defend Raji as a player, no I did not. He quit on his team following the Bears game, that's not the kind of player you want around. However, you're in error to say he didn't show a higher level of play in the final 2 games of the season.

    Giving up 5 ypc against Forte is an improvement considering the level of play we saw from the run defense prior to that game. Remember Detroit? Or how about the career games had against us by Demarco Murray or Laveon Bell. Forte's performance against us was at least only slightly above his seasonal average. That is a sign of an improving run defense. Then holding Frank Gore to a 3.3ypc, .8 below his seasonal average. That again is a sign of improvement, and Raji holding the point was a big part in that reduction.
     
  23. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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  24. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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  25. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    It is true that Capers did not cause this playoff exit.
     

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