Defense under Barry

mradtke66

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I can just imagine how poorly it would have worked out if the Packers would have went from a 4-3 to 3-4, when Reggie White was playing DE. He had the moves, and enough speed to work off the line, but wasn't fast enough to play OLB.

If we had 1996 Reggie (or even better, Prime Eagles Reggie) on this roster, we would run a 4-3 hybrid scheme so fast your head would spin. That said, it wouldn't look much different from that Super Bowl year. Fritz ran a hybrid scheme with Sean Jones being a somewhat undersized speed rusher opposite Reggie. And Reggie's good, but not great speed that meant he wasn't the best outside-container player was dealt with by have the SOLB (I can't remember, I think that was Cox back then?) mug the tight end worry about contain in the running game.

Sure, in base, we'd be a 4-3 hybrid. All that really means is that we'd be in a shade (4-3 under) look and the strong (almost always defensive left) outside linebacker would be more of a coverage player. Preston honestly wouldn't be horrible in that role, but he'd be over paid.

In nickel, Reggie (or for a non-Zombie approach) or JJ Watt would give you flexibility. Depending on down and distance, Reggie could either be a 3T defensive tackle or an edge player. In Dime, he'd all but certainly be a DT.
 

milani

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If we had 1996 Reggie (or even better, Prime Eagles Reggie) on this roster, we would run a 4-3 hybrid scheme so fast your head would spin. That said, it wouldn't look much different from that Super Bowl year. Fritz ran a hybrid scheme with Sean Jones being a somewhat undersized speed rusher opposite Reggie. And Reggie's good, but not great speed that meant he wasn't the best outside-container player was dealt with by have the SOLB (I can't remember, I think that was Cox back then?) mug the tight end worry about contain in the running game.

Sure, in base, we'd be a 4-3 hybrid. All that really means is that we'd be in a shade (4-3 under) look and the strong (almost always defensive left) outside linebacker would be more of a coverage player. Preston honestly wouldn't be horrible in that role, but he'd be over paid.

In nickel, Reggie (or for a non-Zombie approach) or JJ Watt would give you flexibility. Depending on down and distance, Reggie could either be a 3T defensive tackle or an edge player. In Dime, he'd all but certainly be a DT.
And really that is why we went out and got Reggie and Santana Dotson and also Sean Jones and Gilbert Brown. Fritz was trying to fit FOR a 4-3. How many 3-4s existed in 1996? The Steelers? The Panthers?
 

mradtke66

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And really that is why we went out and got Reggie and Santana Dotson and also Sean Jones and Gilbert Brown. Fritz was trying to fit FOR a 4-3. How many 3-4s existed in 1996? The Steelers? The Panthers?

I'm not sure, though trends are cyclical. The Packers were a 3-4 team before Fritz arrived. Bryce Paup was our primary edge rusher before we got Reggie.

One of the grand ironies that many people don't realize is that (again simpler times) 4-3s were tailored to pass defense, 3-4s to run defense. 4-3s adopting the under shift (which Fritz ran and is sometimes called 4-3 hybrid, or 3-4 w/ 4-3 personnel) is an attempt to bring the SOLB on to the line of scrimmage to help fill gaps and present a 5 man front for running plays, more like a 3-4.

As far as one scheme being better or worse at things today, meh. There is enough trading of ideas that matters probably less than ever. I'd say we're getting to the point where the only real distinctions are what compromises you're willing to deal with from which position groups. Both want a run plugger NT, both ideally want 2 good edge players, both need a rangy off the ball linebacker to help covering running backs (4-3 calls him WOLB/WILL, 3-4 calls him WILB/BUCK)...but the 4-3 can live with a 2-down SOLB, the 3-4 can live with their starting end have a little less raw pass rush, so long as they are long enough to bat balls. And both are going to be in nickel most of the game anyway.

It really is mostly semantics these days.
 
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It really is mostly semantics these days.

This. Exactly this.

The Packers have played 226 snaps on defense so far this season. Positionally, this is the breakdown:

DL: 554 (2.45)
ED: 449 (1.99)
LB: 416 (1.84)
CB: 615 (2.7)
S: 452 (2.0)

What this illustrates is that the Packers are a nickel base defense (2 iDL, 2 ED, 2 LB, 3 CB, 2 S), but will occasionally go heavy on the line for obvious reasons (goal line, short yardage).

Barry's defense always plays with 2 edge defenders: Smith, Gary, Garvin, and Enagbare.

These guys are only called "linebackers" on the roster because Green is technically a 3-4 base. If we were a 4-3 base, they would be called "defensive ends."
 

rmontro

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If we had 1996 Reggie (or even better, Prime Eagles Reggie) on this roster, we would run a 4-3 hybrid scheme so fast your head would spin. That said, it wouldn't look much different from that Super Bowl year. Fritz ran a hybrid scheme with Sean Jones being a somewhat undersized speed rusher opposite Reggie.
Man, we had a monster DL back then. People say how did we only win one Super Bowl with Favre, I say how did we only win one Super Bowl with that D?
 

mradtke66

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Man, we had a monster DL back then. People say how did we only win one Super Bowl with Favre, I say how did we only win one Super Bowl with that D?

Honestly? Sean Jones retired and we didn't adequately replace him is pretty high on the list.
 

milani

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I'm not sure, though trends are cyclical. The Packers were a 3-4 team before Fritz arrived. Bryce Paup was our primary edge rusher before we got Reggie.

One of the grand ironies that many people don't realize is that (again simpler times) 4-3s were tailored to pass defense, 3-4s to run defense. 4-3s adopting the under shift (which Fritz ran and is sometimes called 4-3 hybrid, or 3-4 w/ 4-3 personnel) is an attempt to bring the SOLB on to the line of scrimmage to help fill gaps and present a 5 man front for running plays, more like a 3-4.

As far as one scheme being better or worse at things today, meh. There is enough trading of ideas that matters probably less than ever. I'd say we're getting to the point where the only real distinctions are what compromises you're willing to deal with from which position groups. Both want a run plugger NT, both ideally want 2 good edge players, both need a rangy off the ball linebacker to help covering running backs (4-3 calls him WOLB/WILL, 3-4 calls him WILB/BUCK)...but the 4-3 can live with a 2-down SOLB, the 3-4 can live with their starting end have a little less raw pass rush, so long as they are long enough to bat balls. And both are going to be in nickel most of the game anyway.

It really is mostly semantics these days.
I remember the days of Brian Noble and Scott Stephen, Chuck Cecil and of course Tim. We always seemed to lack a player or two on both sides of the ball, however. Getting Reggie I believe changed the way some players felt about possibly coming to GB.
This. Exactly this.

The Packers have played 226 snaps on defense so far this season. Positionally, this is the breakdown:

DL: 554 (2.45)
ED: 449 (1.99)
LB: 416 (1.84)
CB: 615 (2.7)
S: 452 (2.0)

What this illustrates is that the Packers are a nickel base defense (2 iDL, 2 ED, 2 LB, 3 CB, 2 S), but will occasionally go heavy on the line for obvious reasons (goal line, short yardage).

Barry's defense always plays with 2 edge defenders: Smith, Gary, Garvin, and Enagbare.

These guys are only called "linebackers" on the roster because Green is technically a 3-4 base. If we were a 4-3 base, they would be called "defensive ends."
So what is different than Petine from a scheme standpoint.
 

mradtke66

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So what is different than Petine from a scheme standpoint.

Pettine vs. Barry? Not as much as you might think. Honestly, there isn't even that much difference between Pettine, Capers, and Barry. Or even Fangio.

The biggest difference in scheme between the three main lines above (Barry's recently been a Fangio line) is what they do with coverage and how they philosophically deploy their schemes.

Capers, being an older coordinator, went through a change while he was our DC. In 2009, we were the number 1 run defense (in terms of yards) but obviously we didn't win it all. In 2010, we were the 18th rushing defense but we won it all. From that point on, Capers had a tendency to favor pass defense over run defense. And honestly, so did Pettine and Barry.

In the front 7/6/5, Capers loved to dip into nickel defense and in my estimation, you'll need Cap to check me, played the most single-high safety looks. Part of that was personnel driven. Woodson, Williams, and Shields were excellent players, so you wanted them on the field all the time. In fact, before Woodson made the switch to safety at the end of his career, Capers drew up a custom scheme with 3 CBs and single Safety to give excellent balance for run vs. pass defense. This was called Corner-Okie ("Okie" was his base 3-4 personnel group. I think there was also "Big Okie," but I don't remember if that was 3 safeties or an extra lineman for goal line.) Where Capers tended to falter was complexity. He had built-in checks, rolls, shifts, etc to counter offensive motions, shifts, and different alignments within the same offensive personnel groupings. It put a lot on (in particular) the Safety to call out checks and responsibilities. If you have less experienced, younger players, this was a recipe for disaster. And it was.

Pettine was honestly similar. He preferred to stop the pass first, loved his nickel defense, but he also tended to shift to dime sooner. He also was primarily a Man to Man secondary. His change vs. Capers was to have simpler, easier to teach and call defenses with the hope of making fewer mental mistakes.

The Barry/Fangio defense also is stop-the-pass first, but they take dealing with the pass to the extreme. The focus is on 2-deep safeties all the time and then rolling coverage after the snap of the ball. 8 man boxes are rare (or 7 man in nickel), sometimes to the point of absurdity. A very zone heavy secondary, it mostly looks like cover-3 to me, but TV coverage is poor and I'm too busy to find, let alone watch, All-22 footage to confirm that. The philosophy is to be okay with medium yards-per carry. Force the offense to go the length of the field, and get cuter and more complicated as the field shrinks and you don't have to worry about deep shots.

In all three approaches, the fronts are largely the same.
 

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I posted some of this elsewhere as well, but here's an interesting discussion regarding the state of our defense. I would recommend reading the whole thing but here are a few snippets:

(Source)
The Packers have seven former first-round picks on the defensive side of the ball: Rashan Gary, Devonte Wyatt, Kenny Clark, Quay Walker, Jaire Alexander, Eric Stokes, and Darnell Savage. These aren’t old, washed, transplant first-rounders. Each was selected by the Packers, and the oldest is Clark at 27. This list doesn’t even include big-contract players like Preston Smith, Adrian Amos, and De’Vondre Campbell.

The Packers defense has talent, and when a talented defense is playing poorly, it falls on the defensive coordinator...

...In his first season with the Packers, Barry’s defense was 22nd by DVOA and 19th by expected points added per play allowed. Five games into his second season, the Packers defense is 23rd by DVOA and 16th by EPA per play allowed. So, better? Maybe? But still bad.

How can a team with this much talent, running a system that has largely succeeded in the NFL, be bad? It’s because they’re poorly coached. Throw on any Packers film, and you’ll see players put into disadvantageous spots. The back seven regularly fails to exchange routes in coverage, as players miscommunicate on rules and responsibilities, leaving open receivers streaking across the field.

This is an unacceptably passive, straightforward, and predictable way to play defense. Opposing offenses know what they’re getting from the Packers, and that makes execution easier...
...What’s the solution here? The solution is to grow up. Get creative. Assume the other team also has talent and realize that you have to adjust, week to week, half to half, drive to drive if you want to survive in the NFL.
 

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I posted some of this elsewhere as well, but here's an interesting discussion regarding the state of our defense. I would recommend reading the whole thing but here are a few snippets:

(Source)


I agree with some and disagree with others. On one hand if they aren’t functioning in the base and simple straight up parts of the defense, there is no way getting “creative” fixes anything.

I agree we have talented players and we should be playing better. We have some young studs on this D. But how do we rectify this? in a season where we now have our best DB back on the field, one of the best in the field, Stokes is no longer a rookie. Rasul has proven he's so much more than some practice squad cast off etc with the same DB's coach, more experience, more talent etc we're to believe our coaches can't coach again? not even a year removed when we were all so impressed by what they did with who they did it with?

Yes coaching can make a difference, but they're trying to tell me on one hand, it's too easy for opposing offenses because they know exactly what GB is going to do and on the other they're finding so much success because GB has breakdowns because of coaching. Which is it?

They seemed to coach pretty good last year, they forgot how? I don't think it's been easy for teams because they know what GB is going to do, I think it is because of the breakdowns and that has been obvious. The only way this team has been losing on defensive plays practically is because of miscommunications. That must be fixed. But that isn't fixed by firing coaches that just a year ago proved they could do it with lesser players and it's not fixed by adding complexity to something they're already not understanding.

Just those 3 penalties by Rasul last game were fricking huge. earased a couple sacks, one a strip sack and gave them a 1st and goal near the end of the game instead of 3rd and goal.
They've been playing really well at times, mis-communicating in others and shooting themselves in the foot. it all makes it look bad and they have to clean it up. I think they can and will. But I think some of you are seeing things worse than what they are.
 
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I agree with some and disagree with others. On one hand if they aren’t functioning in the base and simple straight up parts of the defense, there is no way getting “creative” fixes anything.

I agree we have talented players and we should be playing better. We have some young studs on this D. But how do we rectify this? in a season where we now have our best DB back on the field, one of the best in the field, Stokes is no longer a rookie. Rasul has proven he's so much more than some practice squad cast off etc with the same DB's coach, more experience, more talent etc we're to believe our coaches can't coach again? not even a year removed when we were all so impressed by what they did with who they did it with?

Yes coaching can make a difference, but they're trying to tell me on one hand, it's too easy for opposing offenses because they know exactly what GB is going to do and on the other they're finding so much success because GB has breakdowns because of coaching. Which is it?

They seemed to coach pretty good last year, they forgot how? I don't think it's been easy for teams because they know what GB is going to do, I think it is because of the breakdowns and that has been obvious. The only way this team has been losing on defensive plays practically is because of miscommunications. That must be fixed. But that isn't fixed by firing coaches that just a year ago proved they could do it with lesser players and it's not fixed by adding complexity to something they're already not understanding.

Just those 3 penalties by Rasul last game were fricking huge. earased a couple sacks, one a strip sack and gave them a 1st and goal near the end of the game instead of 3rd and goal.
They've been playing really well at times, mis-communicating in others and shooting themselves in the foot. it all makes it look bad and they have to clean it up. I think they can and will. But I think some of you are seeing things worse than what they are.
I agree. Just that 1 flag alone that erased a Rashan Gary sack erased a
2nd and 21 deep in Giants territory. They to me was the momentum flipper. The Giants marched down on that drive and scored and I don’t think that they pick up 21 yards on 2 plays. Less than 35% chance there.

Not to character assassin Rasul but he was literally cussing to the media saying playing in London was a joke. Seems the joke was on him, terrible attitude and that stuff needs to be addressed in front of his team imo. That attitude should’ve gotten him the bench and idc if SJC starts it’s an unacceptable attitude he’s bringing lately and it’s showing up in his game

Matter of fact I would tell him to stay home and sulk like a baby next time.
 
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milani

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I posted some of this elsewhere as well, but here's an interesting discussion regarding the state of our defense. I would recommend reading the whole thing but here are a few snippets:

(Source)
Subliminally I also believe our D feels that IT has to win games now. For years we had an offense that could light up the scoreboard and dominate time of possession ( Except in postseason ). Last year we saw games in which our only chance of winning was with our defense. Like in AZ, KC, and the 9er finale. That trend may start to grow this year and the D cannot stay up to it.
 

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Packers have some of the better man press corners in the league and yet the scheme Barry insists on has them playing 8 yards off the receivers on 3rd and long. Barry has always sucked as a DC and he's continuing to do so now. Sure, the players aren't playing that well (nobody should be shocked that Campbell has fallen off of his play from last season) but even if all of them were playing AMAZING, Barry would still be an awful DC. Biggest mistake MLF has made and continues to make is his insistence on that guy being the head of the defense.
 

milani

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Packers have some of the better man press corners in the league and yet the scheme Barry insists on has them playing 8 yards off the receivers on 3rd and long. Barry has always sucked as a DC and he's continuing to do so now. Sure, the players aren't playing that well (nobody should be shocked that Campbell has fallen off of his play from last season) but even if all of them were playing AMAZING, Barry would still be an awful DC. Biggest mistake MLF has made and continues to make is his insistence on that guy being the head of the defense.
The Eagles went man press against the Vikings with Thielen, JJ, and Osborne. It worked enough of the time so Cousins was either rattled or on the ground. You think it might work against lesser QBs and lesser receivers for us.
 
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They seemed to coach pretty good last year, they forgot how? I don't think it's been easy for teams because they know what GB is going to do, I think it is because of the breakdowns and that has been obvious. The only way this team has been losing on defensive plays practically is because of miscommunications. That must be fixed. But that isn't fixed by firing coaches that just a year ago proved they could do it with lesser players and it's not fixed by adding complexity to something they're already not understanding.

The defense needs to figure out why these breakdowns and miscommunications happen in a heartbeat. I have absolutely no idea if it's because of bad coaching or the players messing up but they desperately need to improve. I agree there's no reason to consider firing any coaches at this point though.
 
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The defense needs to figure out why these breakdowns and miscommunications happen in a heartbeat. I have absolutely no idea if it's because of bad coaching or the players messing up but they desperately need to improve. I agree there's no reason to consider firing any coaches at this point though.
I was watching some some analysts that said it was “crossers” that we were getting mostly burned on. They mentioned that if they saw it? You can expect our future opponents will also.

One they mentioned even lowly Savage saw happen in front of him and he was screaming at the players for the breakdown. it reminded me of my track relay days and how important the baton handoff part is. It’s a deal breaker, but it’s also very fixable if continually assessed and addressed.
 
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Tonights video answers a lot of questions I’ve personally had for myself concerning holes.
Barry isn’t shaken, he’s considering using press and varying his system ti be flexible with veterans to be instinctive.
At least twice reiterated that takeaways are a result of several factors but start with pressuring rhe QB. That speaks to me that he’s planning on bringing more pressure to force mistakes.

The crossing routes were addressed and he brought that up unprovoked. I believe those handoffs will be a focus the next few weeks.

He reminds us that he believes Stokes is still young and on the rise. He thinks this Secondary is elite comparable to what he’s seen in the past and he’s nowhere close to panicking. He also mentioned he thought we had 2 great practices this week.

He mentioned being aware of the lack of Takeaways, but reminds us that they come in clumps, which I know to be true but needed to be reminded.

My concern is heavily on the Offense and I believe a good Offense indirectly helps the Defense by taking pressure off of them to perform. Simply improving O efficiency would pull us down a few rankings.
 
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At least twice reiterated that takeaways are a result of several factors but start with pressuring rhe QB. That speaks to me that he’s planning on bringing more pressure to force mistakes.

The Packers already rank fifth in blitz percentage in the league. It might not be smart to add to that number.

The crossing routes were addressed and he brought that up unprovoked.

Well, the issues on crossing routes need to be fixed, addressing them isn't good enough.

He also mentioned he thought we had 2 great practices this week.

I don't give a damn about them having great practices. According to several reports during camp they looked like an elite defense for the majority of it as well. It needs to translate to games though.
 

gopkrs

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At least twice reiterated that takeaways are a result of several factors but start with pressuring rhe QB. That speaks to me that he’s planning on bringing more pressure to force mistakes.
Well I hope he gets a little more creative with it and does not just send inside linebackers up the middle where they only end up clogging everything up and giving the QB plenty of time.
 
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The Packers already rank fifth in blitz percentage in the league. It might not be smart to add to that number.
I don't give a damn about them having great practices. According to several reports during camp they looked like an elite defense for the majority of it as well. It needs to translate to games though.

Well, the issues on crossing routes need to be fixed, addressing them isn't good enough.


yeah. I just choose to support my team verses whine at every corner. We got enough whiners to fill a Winery. Just file a complaint with the FO I’m sure they can’t wait to hear your critical remarks at every syllable
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We’ve got a 4 year old in the house
that whines less (she is a pretty remarkable Kid though) and I’m being truthful (baby crying sounds in the background) :rolleyes:
 
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I just choose to support my team verses whine at every corner.

Yeah, it's common knowledge that the best way to support a team is being overly optimistic about a defensive coordinator of a struggling unit telling us they had great practices in a press conference :rolleyes:
 

rmontro

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I'm as unhappy with the team as anyone, but right now the defense ranks fifth in yards and 11th in scoring. That's not terrible. Of course they have faced a few backup quarterbacks in there and even lost to a third stringer. That's hard to swallow when your own QB is supposedly in the conversation at least for GOAT.
 

milani

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I'm as unhappy with the team as anyone, but right now the defense ranks fifth in yards and 11th in scoring. That's not terrible. Of course they have faced a few backup quarterbacks in there and even lost to a third stringer. That's hard to swallow when your own QB is supposedly in the conversation at least for GOAT.
Well, we struggled with a 3rd stringer but we did not lose to one. We lost to Kirk Cousins and Daniel with the sore ankle. What makes our D more under the gun is that our offense has not put up points or time of possession as they have in the last decade. If we had the D is on the field less and our opponents are under the gun.
 

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