Cornerbacks

[AmishMafia]

I noticed recently that some of Lombardi's drafts from the 60's were downright pathetic. His best players were from the late 50's and 60-61 drafts. It got rather sparse after that.

Jack Vinissi was a great GM. Lombardi was a poor GM but a great coach. There were 12 HOF or probowlers on the roster Lombardi took over. Talent is important but coaching is more important IMHO. Once Jack died the Packer talent level began dropping.

 

[Mondio]

It's a perfect illustration of all the moving parts it takes to achieve greatness. All those hofers were pretty much losers before Lombardi. He turned them into winners. But someone else found much of the talent. Without each other do we remember either very well?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

That's a little harsh. Every single player in the draft has a risk/reward factor associated. There are never any guarantees no matter where you draft. The higher the pick, though, the more likely the player is too succeed. Statistics demonstrate this. If a pick busts, it is not an error per say by the GM. The GM weighed the risk and looked at the reward and made the decision. Now if the GM hits a lot of busts he is failing as a GM. He may not be judging the talent correctly but is more likely to be erroring on evaluating the risk.

Think again about poker. The best players never win all the hands they go after. They weigh the risk on every hand and bet accordingly. They know some hands will bust, thats the odds. But they also know if they evaluate and understand the risks correctly, in the long run they will be successful.

That's why I said they were bad in an absolute sense. It's not harsh, it's the reality of the profession. yes, higher picks are more likely to succeed. However, if you can trade that one first round guy for five third/fourth round players, I'm not absolutely sure that the trade off doesn't imply you should go for the five guys over the one.

 

[Dantés]

If drafting is simply a crap shoot, why are some teams consistently better at it than others?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If drafting is simply a crap shoot, why are some teams consistently better at it than others?

Cause some teams don't know crap?

So many factors that work together in successful picks, as well as a little bit of luck tossed in. We could probably list 50 reasons why a pick is successful or unsuccessful and still not cover them all. But you are right, the teams that are consistently at the top of their respective divisions, can probably point to successful drafting, amongst 50 + other reasons why their team is successful. Ultimately, it's the teams that do all 50+ things the best that have guaranteed themselves the best chance at success, as long as they also have a little luck along the way too.

 

[DoURant]

Ultimately, it's the teams that do all 50+ things the best that have guaranteed themselves the best chance at success, as long as they also have a little luck along the way too.

I'm not directing this response directly at you, its a post in general, and your statement gives me a starting point for what I have to say

The Packers are one of the better, lucky teams in the NFL, that does the 50+ things the best. 8 straight playoff appearances ( 1 super Bowl victory and 2 other NFC Championship game appearances in that time frame). You would swear by some of the posts around this forum we were fans from a losing team such as the Detroit Lions, or the Cleveland Browns, not the Green Bay Packers. For those of us that watched the Packers in the 70's and 80's, the past 25 yrs has been a wonderful ride, but we never forget the lean yrs, and how tough it was watching them. The younger fans who only know the Favre/Rodgers years just don't know how good they have had it, being able to root for a winning team all these yrs. I know, I know...you want more than 2 Super Bowl victories in that time frame, yada yada yada. So do I, but be happy we have 2, there are teams in the NFL that haven't even made it to one Super Bowl, much less won one, that's how hard it is to get there. To be perfectly honest, IMO, this younger generation of Packer fans has been spoiled by the last 25 yrs of Packers success. The ultimate goal is to win the Super Bowl every year, but that is also 32 other teams goal. There are maybe 5 or 6 teams that have been consistently picking at the end of the 1st Rd yr after yr. in that time frame (Packers, Patriots, Steelers, Seahawks, Broncos and Ravens) and they continue to make the playoffs and are considered Super Bowl favorites every year. My point is, the Packers are a well run franchise, they also have been lucky (the trade for Favre, and Rodgers falling to us in the draft). The organization has developed successful guys such as John Schneider, John Dorsey, and Reggie McKenzie into GM jobs with other teams. Andy Reid, Ben McAdoo, Steve Mariucci, etc. into HC in the NFL. We as fans expect to win and losing is unacceptable, I get that. TT has helped the Packers stay on top of the NFL in his time as GM, but you would think we are a 4-12 team every year with all the criticism this man gets. Don't get me wrong, I've been critical of Ted many times in the past myself, and I'm sure there will be times when I am critical of him in the future, but I just don't get all the hate for a guy who has helped bring so much success to the team we all love.

 

[brandon2348]

I'm not directing this response directly at you, its a post in general, and your statement gives me a starting point for what I have to say

The Packers are one of the better, lucky teams in the NFL, that does the 50+ things the best. 8 straight playoff appearances ( 1 super Bowl victory and 2 other NFC Championship game appearances in that time frame). You would swear by some of the posts around this forum we were fans from a losing team such as the Detroit Lions, or the Cleveland Browns, not the Green Bay Packers. For those of us that watched the Packers in the 70's and 80's, the past 25 yrs has been a wonderful ride, but we never forget the lean yrs, and how tough it was watching them. The younger fans who only know the Favre/Rodgers years just don't know how good they have had it, being able to root for a winning team all these yrs. I know, I know...you want more than 2 Super Bowl victories in that time frame, yada yada yada. So do I, but be happy we have 2, there are teams in the NFL that haven't even made it to one Super Bowl, much less won one, that's how hard it is to get there. To be perfectly honest, IMO, this younger generation of Packer fans has been spoiled by the last 25 yrs of Packers success. The ultimate goal is to win the Super Bowl every year, but that is also 32 other teams goal. There are maybe 5 or 6 teams that have been consistently picking at the end of the 1st Rd yr after yr. in that time frame (Packers, Patriots, Steelers, Seahawks, Broncos and Ravens) and they continue to make the playoffs and are considered Super Bowl favorites every year. My point is, the Packers are a well run franchise, they also have been lucky (the trade for Favre, and Rodgers falling to us in the draft). The organization has developed successful guys such as John Schneider, John Dorsey, and Reggie McKenzie into GM jobs with other teams. Andy Reid, Ben McAdoo, Steve Mariucci, etc. into HC in the NFL. We as fans expect to win and losing is unacceptable, I get that. TT has helped the Packers stay on top of the NFL in his time as GM, but you would think we are a 4-12 team every year with all the criticism this man gets. Don't get me wrong, I've been critical of Ted many times in the past myself, and I'm sure there will be times when I am critical of him in the future, but I just don't get all the hate for a guy who has helped bring so much success to the team we all love.

I think you make some good points. I endured the lean years so I know all about "expectations". Yes, Aaron Rodgers does spoil all of us. I would agree that winning a Super Bowl every year is unrealistic but having a "generational QB" would lead you to believe we should have more then we do since 2010.

My issue is that this isn't the teams of the 70's or the 80's. This is a team knocking on the door and can't get over the hump since 2010. Yes, we have been on the wrong side of some heartbreak but it doesn't take away the fact that Thompson leaves this team short handed year after year.My main issue right now is the lack of willingness to upgrade a porous secondary on the outside when cap space and players were available.

The whole situation just looks all to familiar and I hate to predict a season in April, But right now it looks like another NFC north title and getting bounced out of the playoffs against a good team because the defense won't be able to get off the field.

Too rest Super Bowl hopes solely on unproven players improving is failure IMO and that is what is happening. We still have no replacement for Shields other then "hopes and dreams" at this point.

 

[DoURant]

I think you make some good points. I endured the lean years so I know all about "expectations". Yes, Aaron Rodgers does spoil all of us. I would agree that winning a Super Bowl every year is unrealistic but having a "generational QB" would lead you to believe we should have more then we do since 2010.

My issue is that this isn't the teams of the 70's or the 80's. This is a team knocking on the door and can't get over the hump since 2010. Yes, we have been on the wrong side of some heartbreak but it doesn't take away the fact that Thompson leaves this team short handed year after year.My main issue right now is the lack of willingness to upgrade a porous secondary on the outside when cap space and players were available.

The whole situation just looks all to familiar and I hate to predict a season in April, But right now it looks like another NFC north title and getting bounced out of the playoffs against a good team because the defense won't be able to get off the field.

To rest Super Bowl hopes solely on unproven players improving is failure IMO and that is what is happening. We still have no replacement for Shields other then "hopes and dreams" at this point.

Maybe all the great QB's other than Rodgers will get injured this yr and we will get to play against a bunch of 2nd string QB's who make our CB's look like All Pros, and we take home another Lombardi trophy this year.

 

[Poppa San]

I noticed recently that some of Lombardi's drafts from the 60's were downright pathetic. His best players were from the late 50's and 60-61 drafts. It got rather sparse after that.

Jack Vinissi was a great GM. Lombardi was a poor GM but a great coach. There were 12 HOF or probowlers on the roster Lombardi took over. ...

... All those hofers were pretty much losers before Lombardi. He turned them into winners.

So to condense this, the players that dominated the 60's were mostly drafted in the 50's and took a few years to develop. They weren't instant HOFers nor all 1st round ready to start picks. And, they missed the playoffs at least once during their run.

 

[AmishMafia]

So to condense this, the players that dominated the 60's were mostly drafted in the 50's and took a few years to develop. They weren't instant HOFers nor all 1st round ready to start picks. And, they missed the playoffs at least once during their run.

No. I would say Lombardi was a master motivator, a great tactician, and had the team very prepared. He made the players great and without him, the Packers would have not achieved what they did. Nitchke, Robinson, Wood, etc would not have become HOFers without him.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm not directing this response directly at you, its a post in general, and your statement gives me a starting point for what I have to say

The Packers are one of the better, lucky teams in the NFL, that does the 50+ things the best. 8 straight playoff appearances ( 1 super Bowl victory and 2 other NFC Championship game appearances in that time frame). You would swear by some of the posts around this forum we were fans from a losing team such as the Detroit Lions, or the Cleveland Browns, not the Green Bay Packers. For those of us that watched the Packers in the 70's and 80's, the past 25 yrs has been a wonderful ride, but we never forget the lean yrs, and how tough it was watching them. The younger fans who only know the Favre/Rodgers years just don't know how good they have had it, being able to root for a winning team all these yrs. I know, I know...you want more than 2 Super Bowl victories in that time frame, yada yada yada. So do I, but be happy we have 2, there are teams in the NFL that haven't even made it to one Super Bowl, much less won one, that's how hard it is to get there. To be perfectly honest, IMO, this younger generation of Packer fans has been spoiled by the last 25 yrs of Packers success. The ultimate goal is to win the Super Bowl every year, but that is also 32 other teams goal. There are maybe 5 or 6 teams that have been consistently picking at the end of the 1st Rd yr after yr. in that time frame (Packers, Patriots, Steelers, Seahawks, Broncos and Ravens) and they continue to make the playoffs and are considered Super Bowl favorites every year. My point is, the Packers are a well run franchise, they also have been lucky (the trade for Favre, and Rodgers falling to us in the draft). The organization has developed successful guys such as John Schneider, John Dorsey, and Reggie McKenzie into GM jobs with other teams. Andy Reid, Ben McAdoo, Steve Mariucci, etc. into HC in the NFL. We as fans expect to win and losing is unacceptable, I get that. TT has helped the Packers stay on top of the NFL in his time as GM, but you would think we are a 4-12 team every year with all the criticism this man gets. Don't get me wrong, I've been critical of Ted many times in the past myself, and I'm sure there will be times when I am critical of him in the future, but I just don't get all the hate for a guy who has helped bring so much success to the team we all love.

It's not surprising Packers fans are disappointed the team hasn't won another title over the last six season because expectations are vastly different compared to the gory years in the 70s and 80s mainly based on having a generational talent at quarterback.

 

[DoURant]

It's not surprising Packers fans are disappointed the team hasn't won another title over the last six season because expectations are vastly different compared to the gory years in the 70s and 80s mainly based on having a generational talent at quarterback.

I'm disappointed the team hasn't won another title the past 6 yrs also, the heartbreak of how the team has lost in the playoffs (Seattle and Arizona) makes you ask, why and what if? However, I'm still grateful the Packers franchise is a winner, and we have been blessed w/ Rodgers to give us a chance every year. I'm also grateful that the Packers don't have to go into the season, like many teams, knowing full well that they aren't going to make it to the playoffs much less the Super Bowl. The Packers, at least, are always in the discussion for both. Go Pack Go.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm disappointed the team hasn't won another title the past 6 yrs also, the heartbreak of how the team has lost in the playoffs (Seattle and Arizona) makes you ask, why and what if? However, I'm still grateful the Packers franchise is a winner, and we have been blessed w/ Rodgers to give us a chance every year. I'm also grateful that the Packers don't have to go into the season, like many teams, knowing full well that they aren't going to make it to the playoffs much less the Super Bowl. The Packers, at least, are always in the discussion for both. Go Pack Go.

I'm grateful the Packers have bern one of the best teams in the league over the past 25 seasons as well yet disappointed about winning only two Super Bowls while having Favre and Rodgers at quarterback.

 

[brandon2348]

As long as most Packer fans are content with just making the playoffs nothing will change and the yearly heartbreak will continue.

Like I posted awhile back this like the movie "Groundhog Day".

 

[DoURant]

As long as most Packer fans are content with just making the playoffs nothing will change and the yearly heartbreak will continue.

The fans content for just making the playoffs has nothing to do with how the team performs on the field. I would hope that all Packers fans have a goal for the team to win the Super Bowl, every year. Unfortunately, its just not going to happen. But I agree, it has been like "Groundhog Day"

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

As long as most Packer fans are content with just making the playoffs nothing will change and the yearly heartbreak will continue.

Like I posted awhile back this like the movie "Groundhog Day".

I think you and some other fans misinterpret how many of us feel when you use the word "content". The verb definition of "content" is:

"pleased with your situation and not needing or desiring it to be better"

Most Patriot fans might feel content right now, but that could change next year when they fall short. I don't see a lot of people in this forum with that viewpoint of being overtly "content". Most posters here are constructively trying to discuss ways that they think the Packers could improve so that they do win more Super Bowls. Personally, I am, as Captain so eloquently states from time to time , "disappointed" that the Packers haven't won more Super Bowls with Favre and Rodgers. But I also try to maintain a realistic perspective on just how good the Packers organization has been, all the things that have to happen to win a SB and just how close they have come to that since their last one. While also keeping in mind and weighing things with the knowledge that a few bad moves and they could return to being just a .500 or worse team.

 

[brandon2348]

I think you and some other fans misinterpret how many of us feel when you use the word "content". The verb definition of "content" is:

"pleased with your situation and not needing or desiring it to be better"

Most Patriot fans might feel content right now, but that could change next year when they fall short. I don't see a lot of people in this forum with that viewpoint of being overtly "content". Most posters here are constructively trying to discuss ways that they think the Packers could improve so that they do win more Super Bowls. Personally, I am, as Captain so eloquently states from time to time , "disappointed" that the Packers haven't won more Super Bowls with Favre and Rodgers. But I also try to maintain a realistic perspective on just how good the Packers organization has been, all the things that have to happen to win a SB and just how close they have come to that since their last one. While also keeping in mind and weighing things with the knowledge that a few bad moves and they could return to being just a .500 or worse team.

I understand all this but it just seems every year TT avoids the obvious when giving this team the best chance to win a Super Bowl. We can go back several years to the problems at the safety position. Then we can look back at the ILB situation and now we're starring it right in the eye again at the cornerback position.

He has been slow to fill needs at all of those and the trend appears to be continuing. It just kind of makes ya scratch your head. Devon House ended the season on the bench in Jacksonville. Randall and Rollins aren't premium corners. Gunter is a depth guy at best.

It's great going out and getting Bennett and Kendricks to bolster the offense and I like the Francois move but to ignore no.1 corner and no replacement in sight for Sam Shields other then the draft is just mind boggling. Especially when a guy like Claiborne could of been gotten for 5 mill for 1 year.

I see the lack of a move at corner the most pressing thing that could put this team at .500 or worse. Thompson is holding this franchise back from its true potential.

 

[brandon2348]

The cornerback position in the NFL is the last place you want to be trying to turn chicken **** into the chicken salad and that appears where Thompson has the team headed.

I guess all we can do at this point is hope he has some magic move up his sleeve in regards to this.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I understand all this but it just seems every year TT avoids the obvious when giving this team the best chance to win a Super Bowl. We can go back several years to the problems at the safety position. Then we can look back at the ILB situation and now we're starring it right in the eye again at the cornerback position.

He has been slow to fill needs at all of those and the trend appears to be continuing. It just kind of makes ya scratch your head. Devon House ended the season on the bench in Jacksonville. Randall and Rollins aren't premium corners. Gunter is a depth guy at best.

It's great going out and getting Bennett and Kendricks to bolster the offense and I like the Francois move but to ignore no.1 corner and no replacement in sight for Sam Shields other then the draft is just mind boggling. Especially when a guy like Claiborne could of been gotten for 5 mill for 1 year.

I see the lack of a move at corner the most pressing thing that could put this team at .500 or worse. Thompson is holding this franchise back from its true potential.

You are correct, often TT avoids the obvious, in our eyes, but guessing not in his. One thing I have always trusted, TT and the Packers organization has far more information in which to make decisions than I have. I do have fun playing the armchair GM that many of us play, but at the end of the day, my job isn't on the line for my "suggestions" or criticisms. I don't for a second think TT sits in his office staring blindly into space all day (although I may joke about it), I realize he is doing what he thinks needs to be done to win Super Bowls, while keeping an eye to the future. Ultimately how long he is in the position to do that will be up to the Packer Franchise and I hope when that time comes, his predecessor will be even more successful at entertaining us. All that said, we will all go on being critical (good and bad) of the Packers organization, since that seems to be a big part of being a fan.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You are correct, often TT avoids the obvious, in our eyes, but guessing not in his. One thing I have always trusted, TT and the Packers organization has far more information in which to make decisions than I have.

It was obvious to everyone aside of Thompson and the team's front office that safety, inside linebacker and tight end were in need of dire upgrades for several seasons in the past though. Even when using hindsight the fans criticizing him for not adequately addressing those positions in a timely manner were right about it.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It was obvious to everyone aside of Thompson and the team's front office that safety, inside linebacker and tight end were in need of dire upgrades for several seasons in the past though. Even when using hindsight the fans criticizing him for not adequately addressing those positions in a timely manner were right about it.

Careful now, I was one of those fans! While I agree with everything you said, the hindsight part always plays a role in being right or wrong IMO, it's how we ultimately judge a decision. Had TT been wrong on Aaron Rodgers, he probably still wouldn't be the Packer GM. Yet, many of us, myself included, were scratching our heads at the time. That doesn't mean TT should not be accountable for future bad decisions, but just like every GM in the league, you have to weigh the good and bad and decide if at the end of the day, your GM has made enough good ones to get you to where you want to be. Apparently, TT has made enough good decisions that the Packer organization is ready to proceed ahead with him, no matter what we all say.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

While I agree with everything you said, the hindsight part always plays a role in being right or wrong IMO, it's how we ultimately judge a decision.

The problem being that Thompson never made any moves at those positions to be judged. He's doing the same at cornerback at the moment.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The problem being that Thompson never made any moves at those positions to be judged. He's doing the same at cornerback at the moment.

Then we are judging his lack of "moves" or poor decisions in addressing the needs of those positions.

 

[Poppa San]

, his predecessor will be even more successful at entertaining us

His predecessor left an empty cupboard with aging roster. His successor will hopefully polish the roster and require an addition to the trophy room.

 

[PikeBadger]

As long as most Packer fans are content with just making the playoffs nothing will change and the yearly heartbreak will continue.

Like I posted awhile back this like the movie "Groundhog Day".

Really? I didn't realize us fans had this much control over the on-field success of the team. Do the other 31 teams fans have that same power? Those Patriot fans must be absolutely awesome!