Clinton-Dix at Cover Corner

[RRyder]

Oh, so true. Didn't mean that the Dix play would be the primary topic in 2035, just that it would still be one. Merely meant to pole a little fun at RRyder and others who want us to be adults and move on - we're sports fans, and it ain't gonna happen.

Please. No one is going to remember the Dix 2 point conversion play in 2035. MAYBE the onside kick. MAYBE the fake FG. But my point is dont try and throw that play in with 4th & 26 or T.J. Rubley. Those plays will live in infamy. This play will be forgotton in a few years by most as just another play in an epic collapse

 

[Half Empty]

Wanna bet? Oh, wait, that won't work. I'll be dead by then, so you win by default. Congratulations.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I hated the Randall pick - don't think he can play outside at all, and he can't tackle - at all!!

I liked the Rollins pick, but he's going to take time to develop.

Which means we're stuck with Hayward starting outside. Don't think Clinton-Dix can be effective out there, and even if he is, that means we need a replacement for him at Safety.

I think TT and Capers have created some big problems for themselves in the secondary - Ted says, to paraphrase, "... we don't care where they lineup, we're just looking for good football players"... well, at some point you need "good football players" that have corner skills, and "good football players" that have safety skills.

Seems we have a bunch of, according to Ted, "good football players" who aren't really suited to playing either corner or safety.

Randall has to be a slot cover guy, Clinton-Dix has to be a Safety...

I have complete faith that Capers will make this a huge mess, and they'll look like the Keystone Cops back there - just like they have for the majority of time he has been in Green Bay.

There will be a day of celebration in Green Bay the day Capers is fired!!!

Once again you bring up a valid point but because of your blind hatred for Capers you can´t evaluate the situation objectively.

The Packers have a ton of defensive backs capable of either playing in the slot or at safety but could end up facing a huge problem at cover corner opposite Shields. If that´s the case Thompson would be the one to blame though.

 

[adambr2]

Please. No one is going to remember the Dix 2 point conversion play in 2035. MAYBE the onside kick. MAYBE the fake FG. But my point is dont try and throw that play in with 4th & 26 or T.J. Rubley. Those plays will live in infamy. This play will be forgotton in a few years by most as just another play in an epic collapse

Not by everyone. Everybody remembers 4th and 26. But I also remember Mike McKenzie dropping a INT in the end zone on that drive. I remember Sherman sending the offense back out on 4th and inches to try to win it before the 4th and 26 drive, but chickening out and punting after Reid called timeout. I remember getting the ball back in OT and Favre throwing up a lame duck to seal our fate.

Certain plays stick with you as a fan, and I'm sure many others remember these plays as well as they remember 4th and 26 and will remember the 2 point play as well as they remember other plays from the Seattle game.

 

[RRyder]

Not by everyone. Everybody remembers 4th and 26. But I also remember Mike McKenzie dropping a INT in the end zone on that drive. I remember Sherman sending the offense back out on 4th and inches to try to win it before the 4th and 26 drive, but chickening out and punting after Reid called timeout. I remember getting the ball back in OT and Favre throwing up a lame duck to seal our fate.

Certain plays stick with you as a fan, and I'm sure many others remember these plays as well as they remember 4th and 26 and will remember the 2 point play as well as they remember other plays from the Seattle game.

Congratulations. You apparently remember most every play that has led to an epic loss. MOST fans wont even remember the Dix play 5 years from now much less 20. Some hardcore fans that cant let it go sure. They'll remember. But ill stand by that 90% wont even remember 5 years from now. If you remind them about it sure it'll click into place. But it won't be at the forefront of their minds when they think about the game

P.S. while I do remember those plays now that you bring them up the only reason I remember then is because you did bring them up. The play that sticks out in everyones mind though is 4th&26. The 2 point conversion shouldnt even be mentioned in the same light

 

[brandon2348]

That play will probably not be the first, second or third thing I'll remember about that game.

1. The generalized collapse of the defense, surrendering over 200 yards and 3 TDs in about 6 minutes.

2. Bostick's fumbled on-side kick.

3. Seattle's fake kick.

4. Then, the Dix play.

If fact, that's all remember about that game today.

Don't forget to leave out Peppers directing the defensive back to the ground on the interception.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Don't forget to leave out Peppers directing the defensive back to the ground on the interception.

See, I forgot that already!

But now that you reminded me, how about Matthews seemingly leading a sideline defensive celebration after that play.

In any case, I roll these items into the "defensive collapse", which I'm not likely to forget. So may things went wrong on defense that itemizing them all strikes me as missing the forest for the trees.

 

[brandon2348]

See, I forgot that already!

But now that you reminded me, how about Matthews seemingly leading a sideline defensive celebration after that play.

In any case, I roll these items into the "defensive collapse", which I'm not likely to forget. So may things went wrong on defense that itemizing them all strikes me as missing the forest for the trees.

Well I was at both the "fail mary game" and this epic disaster. I really didn't think it could hurt any worse then the "fail mary" game and of course we all know what happened. This time there was no reffs to blame and anything less then a Super Bowl this year won't cure the pain.

 

[wist43]

Once again you bring up a valid point but because of your blind hatred for Capers you can´t evaluate the situation objectively.

The Packers have a ton of defensive backs capable of either playing in the slot or at safety but could end up facing a huge problem at cover corner opposite Shields. If that´s the case Thompson would be the one to blame though.

I do lay most of the blame on Thompson.

His biggest sin is not firing Capers years ago - followed by catering to Capers misguided evaluation and usage of defensive players, which leads to draft picks that don't fit a role, or fill a hole.

TT has to be the best GM in the league at drafting good players who misfit the scheme that his team is supposedly playing, i.e. a 3-4. After disasterous results for 3 years running, he and MM finally forced Capers to move to a hybrid 3-4, and play much less 2-4.

By changing schemes it made all the miscast front seven players more effective, but it took them 3 years to realize what a mess they had. Also, by drafting Clinton-Dix and signing Peppers - TT actually filled holes in the lineup, and we improved greatly as a result.

Then comes this offseason - and what does TT do?? Does he fix the holes at CB and ILB?? No, he drafts a "DB" in the first round - not a CB; and he ignores ILB until the 4th round. As a result, we have only 1 legit outside Corner, and no sub-package ILB's on the roster.

Unless they have a secret weapon street FA on the roster that is going to shock everyone - it is entirely likely that we are going to struggle, once again, up the middle; struggle to stop the run; and likely have a ton of communication problems in the back end... all things that have become entirely too characteristic of Capers defenses in Green Bay.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

See, I forgot that already!

But now that you reminded me, how about Matthews seemingly leading a sideline defensive celebration after that play.

In any case, I roll these items into the "defensive collapse", which I'm not likely to forget. So may things went wrong on defense that itemizing them all strikes me as missing the forest for the trees.

I would also remember kicking FGs twice from the one-yard line.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I do lay most of the blame on Thompson.

His biggest sin is not firing Capers years ago - followed by catering to Capers misguided evaluation and usage of defensive players, which leads to draft picks that don't fit a role, or fill a hole.

TT has to be the best GM in the league at drafting good players who misfit the scheme that his team is supposedly playing, i.e. a 3-4. After disasterous results for 3 years running, he and MM finally forced Capers to move to a hybrid 3-4, and play much less 2-4.

By changing schemes it made all the miscast front seven players more effective, but it took them 3 years to realize what a mess they had. Also, by drafting Clinton-Dix and signing Peppers - TT actually filled holes in the lineup, and we improved greatly as a result.

Then comes this offseason - and what does TT do?? Does he fix the holes at CB and ILB?? No, he drafts a "DB" in the first round - not a CB; and he ignores ILB until the 4th round. As a result, we have only 1 legit outside Corner, and no sub-package ILB's on the roster.

Unless they have a secret weapon street FA on the roster that is going to shock everyone - it is entirely likely that we are going to struggle, once again, up the middle; struggle to stop the run; and likely have a ton of communication problems in the back end... all things that have become entirely too characteristic of Capers defenses in Green Bay.

Just curious, since coordinators are apparently the only guys that matter in defensive performance, how would you explain the Saints complete collapse on defense in 2014 with basically the same players? I mean, if Capers is to blame for evaluating draft eligible players, drafting said players (since his evaluations is what would drive the draft grades) and also putting those players in terrible positions to succeed then it would stand to reason that another coordinator could take these same players and do really well. I would actually be very happy if that was the case so if you could just give me some examples of other teams with one good dlineman, two good linebackers and no standouts in the secondary (one of whom is actually a rookie) who fielded a really good defense I would be on-board with firing Capers.

Oh, and feel free to ignore this since it doesn't fit your narrative, but the Packers last year were 16th in adjusted defense according to Football Outsiders (adjusted by opponent strength), up from 31st in 2013. Kind of strange that when the defense added an NFL-quality safety to the team and an actual linebacker opposite Matthews, the defense improved...Capers probably forgot how to not-coach last year I guess.

 

[Carl]

I do lay most of the blame on Thompson.

His biggest sin is not firing Capers years ago - followed by catering to Capers misguided evaluation and usage of defensive players, which leads to draft picks that don't fit a role, or fill a hole.

TT has to be the best GM in the league at drafting good players who misfit the scheme that his team is supposedly playing, i.e. a 3-4. After disasterous results for 3 years running, he and MM finally forced Capers to move to a hybrid 3-4, and play much less 2-4.

By changing schemes it made all the miscast front seven players more effective, but it took them 3 years to realize what a mess they had. Also, by drafting Clinton-Dix and signing Peppers - TT actually filled holes in the lineup, and we improved greatly as a result.

Then comes this offseason - and what does TT do?? Does he fix the holes at CB and ILB?? No, he drafts a "DB" in the first round - not a CB; and he ignores ILB until the 4th round. As a result, we have only 1 legit outside Corner, and no sub-package ILB's on the roster.

Unless they have a secret weapon street FA on the roster that is going to shock everyone - it is entirely likely that we are going to struggle, once again, up the middle; struggle to stop the run; and likely have a ton of communication problems in the back end... all things that have become entirely too characteristic of Capers defenses in Green Bay.

He spent a first and second round pick on a corner, but somehow didn't address the corner position...

Whatever you say man.

 

[Carl]

Just curious, since coordinators are apparently the only guys that matter in defensive performance, how would you explain the Saints complete collapse on defense in 2014 with basically the same players? I mean, if Capers is to blame for evaluating draft eligible players, drafting said players (since his evaluations is what would drive the draft grades) and also putting those players in terrible positions to succeed then it would stand to reason that another coordinator could take these same players and do really well. I would actually be very happy if that was the case so if you could just give me some examples of other teams with one good dlineman, two good linebackers and no standouts in the secondary (one of whom is actually a rookie) who fielded a really good defense I would be on-board with firing Capers.

Oh, and feel free to ignore this since it doesn't fit your narrative, but the Packers last year were 16th in adjusted defense according to Football Outsiders (adjusted by opponent strength), up from 31st in 2013. Kind of strange that when the defense added an NFL-quality safety to the team and an actual linebacker opposite Matthews, the defense improved...Capers probably forgot how to not-coach last year I guess.

He doesn't reply to good counterpoints about Capers. He'll just keep ignoring them and complaining about Capers.

 

[wist43]

He spent a first and second round pick on a corner, but somehow didn't address the corner position...

Whatever you say man.

Randall can't play outside... you can list him as a CB, and he can play the slot, where you normally play a CB - but he can't play outside.

TT and Capers value interceptions over other solid fundamentals. Randall is a ballhawk with good hands, and decent speed, but he is a weak hitter and a terrible tackler.

If he can play outside?? Then the pick is okay at least from that standpoint, but he still has those other negatives.

 

[Carl]

Randall can't play outside... you can list him as a CB, and he can play the slot, where you normally play a CB - but he can't play outside.

TT and Capers value interceptions over other solid fundamentals. Randall is a ballhawk with good hands, and decent speed, but he is a weak hitter and a terrible tackler.

If he can play outside?? Then the pick is okay at least from that standpoint, but he still has those other negatives.

So you're saying he can play inside at corner?

Therefore, me must be corner and TT addressed that position. Even if he didn't pick him 1st round, he still addressed it by picking corner in the 2nd.

 

[wist43]

Just curious, since coordinators are apparently the only guys that matter in defensive performance, how would you explain the Saints complete collapse on defense in 2014 with basically the same players? I mean, if Capers is to blame for evaluating draft eligible players, drafting said players (since his evaluations is what would drive the draft grades) and also putting those players in terrible positions to succeed then it would stand to reason that another coordinator could take these same players and do really well. I would actually be very happy if that was the case so if you could just give me some examples of other teams with one good dlineman, two good linebackers and no standouts in the secondary (one of whom is actually a rookie) who fielded a really good defense I would be on-board with firing Capers.

Oh, and feel free to ignore this since it doesn't fit your narrative, but the Packers last year were 16th in adjusted defense according to Football Outsiders (adjusted by opponent strength), up from 31st in 2013. Kind of strange that when the defense added an NFL-quality safety to the team and an actual linebacker opposite Matthews, the defense improved...Capers probably forgot how to not-coach last year I guess.

I have no idea what the Saints problems are - I don't follow them.

As for Capers - he's an encyclopedia of defensive knowledge, I don't deny him that; but at the same time I call a spade a spade. Capers is a coach who eschews run defense in favor of playing pass in almost all situations; and that tunnel vision has cost our team dearly in the past few seasons.

We've been nothing short of horrific defending the run since 2011 - and most of that had to do with Capers playing nickel as his base. We've had the personnel the past couple of years to be at least effective defending the run, but Capers is so worried about the pass that he abandons defending the run, and abandons the middle of the field, in favor of playing extra DB's.

When criticized for playing nickel and dime on base down situations he came right out and said he'd rather bleed to death slowly than give up a big play. As a result, we've gotten run over for the past several years.

Last year, MM and TT finally had enough and forced Capers to go to a hybrid front, and that stopped the bleeding to a large extent - but Capers had the personnel to either play the hybrid or a straight up base in '12 and '13 as well - but of course he kept with his 2-4 base, and we got slaughtered as a result.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Add to Capers disasterous predisposition for playing small up front, the fact that he prefers cover DB's at the expense of DB's that can actually tackle and hit - and you have a recipe for a mess, i.e. once a RB breaks the LOS, our DB's are light hitting, poor tacklers. Randall fits right in that mold.

That said, Burnett is an okay tackler, not great, but okay; and Clinton-Dix is okay as well. Neither will ever be a "hitter", but they are generally effective tacklers. Randall on the other hand, looks nothing short of pathetic in trying to get ball carriers down. I'm not the only one who's noticed it.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Cmon, really? Dix at corner is a waste of a good, maybe great someday, single high safety. Not even an interesting idea.

 

[wist43]

So you're saying he can play inside at corner?

Therefore, me must be corner and TT addressed that position. Even if he didn't pick him 1st round, he still addressed it by picking corner in the 2nd.

I really like the Rollins pick - he's a tough player that can tackle. I think he has a lot more upside than Randall... and I think he can play outside even though he's not as fast as Randall. That makes him a better overall prospect than Randall.

Randall is going to have to play in the slot. If Capers puts him outside, I think he'll get eaten alive out there... can you imagine Randall trying to fight for a ball with Calvin Johnson or Alshon Jeffrey??

He allows the cushion to be eaten up too much before he flips his hips, and when he does flip his hips, he seems a beat slow... that has toast written all over it. He certainly can't get physical with the big WR's of the NFL - he's a smallish DB who plays even smaller than his actual size.

He's a heady player, with very good ball skills - but he played FS in college and didn't have to demonstrate the skills needed to play outside in the NFL. He is a projection to CB simply b/c he hasn't played there much.

Add it up, and he's a slot CB thru and thru... and you just don't spend 1st round draft picks on slot corners.

 

[wist43]

Cmon, really? Dix at corner is a waste of a good, maybe great someday, single high safety. Not even an interesting idea.

I agree... and I think the musical chairs of Capers "interchangability" mantra is going to cost us.

We've long had communication issues in the back end... moving everyone around to cover weaknesses of some of the players is a recipe for a mess. I for one have been sick to death for years at watching opposing receivers pop wide open b/c somebody missed a call or a read.

I expect we're going to take a step backward in the secondary, and we'll see more of those miscommunication issues rise up again.

 

[Carl]

I really like the Rollins pick - he's a tough player that can tackle. I think he has a lot more upside than Randall... and I think he can play outside even though he's not as fast as Randall. That makes him a better overall prospect than Randall.

Randall is going to have to play in the slot. If Capers puts him outside, I think he'll get eaten alive out there... can you imagine Randall trying to fight for a ball with Calvin Johnson or Alshon Jeffrey??

He allows the cushion to be eaten up too much before he flips his hips, and when he does flip his hips, he seems a beat slow... that has toast written all over it. He certainly can't get physical with the big WR's of the NFL - he's a smallish DB who plays even smaller than his actual size.

He's a heady player, with very good ball skills - but he played FS in college and didn't have to demonstrate the skills needed to play outside in the NFL. He is a projection to CB simply b/c he hasn't played there much.

Add it up, and he's a slot CB thru and thru... and you just don't spend 1st round draft picks on slot corners.

I wasn't debating with you at all about whether Randall will be a good player. The point was trying to say TT didn't address corner was completely false, especially after saying you like Rollins.

 

[wist43]

I wasn't debating with you at all about whether Randall will be a good player. The point was trying to say TT didn't address corner was completely false, especially after saying you like Rollins.

He addressed the position by definition, but he likely didn't fix the problems - this year, IMO.

I did like the Rollins pick, but I don't think he'll be able to play outside effectively his rookie year - he's only played 1 year of college football... he's very raw. Long term, I have hopes for Rollins.

So for this year, we're going to have to endure the growing pains of Rollins, and the shortcomings of Randall, and the musical chairs of moving Clinton-Dix around??

Does that not sound like a mess in the making to you??

Long term those players may be just fine... but we're supposed to be a contender this year - TT's short term blind spot.

 

[Carl]

He addressed the position by definition, but he likely didn't fix the problems - this year, IMO.

I did like the Rollins pick, but I don't think he'll be able to play outside effectively his rookie year - he's only played 1 year of college football... he's very raw. Long term, I have hopes for Rollins.

So for this year, we're going to have to endure the growing pains of Rollins, and the shortcomings of Randall, and the musical chairs of moving Clinton-Dix around??

Does that not sound like a mess in the making to you??

Long term those players may be just fine... but we're supposed to be a contender this year - TT's short term blind spot.

We also have Hyde, Hayward, Shields, and Burnett who are all solid guys

Every team every season has to rely on some rookies at some position.

Haha also isn't getting moved. That's just a bad idea by a poster.

So no, it does not seem like a complete mess.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

He spent a first and second round pick on a corner, but somehow didn't address the corner position...

Whatever you say man.

The Packers lost two outside corners in Williams and House. Thompson drafted two defensive backs but none of them is best suited to play on the outside. So, actually he didn´t address the position adequately.

In addition he didn´t draft an inside linebacker until the fourth round so while I like some of the team´s picks in this year´s draft there are some valid reasons to criticize the GM for not upgrading the team´s most pressing needs.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I have no idea what the Saints problems are - I don't follow them.

As for Capers - he's an encyclopedia of defensive knowledge, I don't deny him that; but at the same time I call a spade a spade. Capers is a coach who eschews run defense in favor of playing pass in almost all situations; and that tunnel vision has cost our team dearly in the past few seasons.

We've been nothing short of horrific defending the run since 2011 - and most of that had to do with Capers playing nickel as his base. We've had the personnel the past couple of years to be at least effective defending the run, but Capers is so worried about the pass that he abandons defending the run, and abandons the middle of the field, in favor of playing extra DB's.

When criticized for playing nickel and dime on base down situations he came right out and said he'd rather bleed to death slowly than give up a big play. As a result, we've gotten run over for the past several years.

Last year, MM and TT finally had enough and forced Capers to go to a hybrid front, and that stopped the bleeding to a large extent - but Capers had the personnel to either play the hybrid or a straight up base in '12 and '13 as well - but of course he kept with his 2-4 base, and we got slaughtered as a result.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Add to Capers disasterous predisposition for playing small up front, the fact that he prefers cover DB's at the expense of DB's that can actually tackle and hit - and you have a recipe for a mess, i.e. once a RB breaks the LOS, our DB's are light hitting, poor tacklers. Randall fits right in that mold.

That said, Burnett is an okay tackler, not great, but okay; and Clinton-Dix is okay as well. Neither will ever be a "hitter", but they are generally effective tacklers. Randall on the other hand, looks nothing short of pathetic in trying to get ball carriers down. I'm not the only one who's noticed it.

Some might say Capers has a predisposition for playing small up front, others (who actually care about the real reasons and not player weights listed on a roster) might say he has a predisposition for playing good players over bad. In 2013, Capers options on the dline were Raji, Daniels, Pickett, Jolly, Datone Jones and Josh Boyd (both rookies). Are you seriously saying that Capers should have played a lineup of Raji, Pickett and Daniels more often? Perhaps instead of judging by weight you should judge by play. Raji was AWFUL against the run. He routinely got shoved around like he was on roller skates by one guard (not sure how he handled double teams because teams never had to double him).

They forced Capers to a hybrid front?! That defense was so terrible they scrapped the 'quad' lineup after two games! And I'm sorry, but EVERY coach would rather force the offense to drive the ball slowly down the field instead of giving up the big play. What successful defensive coordinator goes out and says that he would rather surrender the big play than allow a running back to average four yards per carry?

Instead of blaming Capers for the Packer's inability to stop the run, why don't you blame the guys really at fault, like the players? I know the easy and lazy idea is that the Packers could "replace just one guy!" and suddenly the defense would be amazing but all the facts point to that being incorrect. As I said, when Capers got a decent safety to pair with Burnett and a decent linebacker to pair with Matthews, suddenly the defense was about league average (when adjusted for opponent). How do you explain that?

 

[TJV]

....

Go ahead and toy with this poster but keep in mind if the team - and the D - does well during the regular season, he won't be around to face up to what he's posted. Remember, this is the poster who criticized Capers for misusing Peppers before TC last season.