Best offseason in the NFC north

[Sunshinepacker]

I share your concern about the other outside cornerback opposite Shields but the Packers have a ton of defensive backs best suited of playing in the slot in nickel and dime schemes.

As of right now the Packers have one proven nickel corner in Hyde. I'm optimistic about the rookies and Goodson but we're talking about the defense improving or regressing compared to last season. If you think the defense is going to improve then you're saying that Hyde/Goodson/rookie is going to be a better nickel corner than Hayward was last season. That's a pretty tall order.

 

[Carl]

There are 64 starting corners in the NFL. That's a mathematical fact. Tramon Williams was a starting corner in the NFL last season. If you're saying it's easy to replace Tramon, then you're saying that it's easy to find a better starting corner in the NFL. So, according to your logic, that means that Tramon must be worse than a lot of corners in the NFL, I chose 60 because it was a nice, round number. Go ahead and name 50 better corners. If it's easy to replace a player, that means there are lots of players that could play better than him. All I'm asking is for you to actually backup your statement.

As for your comment on me "not reading" about your stats, my fault, I wasn't clear enough in my reply. I actually did mention your stats in my reply but what I should have written is that you put no relative context around those numbers. You reciting random stats about one guy in the NFL doesn't tell anyone anything. Matthew Stafford threw for 4,257 yards, 22 TDs and 12 INTs...great, what does that tell me about how well he did compared to the other starting QBs in the NFL? Absolutely nothing. There's no context around the stats. Your statements about Williams lack any context.

I was also pretty clear about using PFF to rank Tramon amongst corners. If you want to look at how I rank defenses, go look at Football Outsiders adjusted defensive rankings, those are very informative (they actually take opponent strength into consideration). PPG is a very good stat but it doesn't tell all; what's more impressive defensively, holding the Packers to 14 points or holding the Raiders to 10 points? That last statement isn't a knock on PPG, which is probably the best indicator of defensive performance, but PPG does have some flaws.

It comes down to this. It's really easy to say a guy isn't very good when you aren't actually backing that statement up. All I'm asking for is for you to backup your statement that Williams isn't a quality corner in the NFL. PFF gives you, for free, an objective, comprehensive ranking of players at all positions. Unless you can categorically say that there are 50+ better corners in the NFL, then it must not be that easy to replace Tramon or else there would be lots of better corners in the NFL.

Just because a player is a starter doesn't make him good. He could be a starter at a weak position on a team. Hawk, B Jones, and MD Jennings are recent examples on just the Packers.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Just because a player is a starter doesn't make him good. He could be a starter at a weak position on a team. Hawk, B Jones, and MD Jennings are recent examples on just the Packers.

Yeah, none of those guys rated very highly according to PFF, a site that actually looks at every player. I'm not just basing this on starting but, if Tramon is easy to replace, then it should be easy to find a BUNCH of better corners and so looking at starters makes for an easy starting point (that's a lot of 'starting' in that sentence). How about this, just give me a list of the teams with better starting corners than Tramon was, that way it's not so long. The players you listed were obviously not great players. Tramon was a quality corner in the NFL.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

There are 64 starting corners in the NFL. That's a mathematical fact. Tramon Williams was a starting corner in the NFL last season. If you're saying it's easy to replace Tramon, then you're saying that it's easy to find a better starting corner in the NFL. So, according to your logic, that means that Tramon must be worse than a lot of corners in the NFL, I chose 60 because it was a nice, round number. Go ahead and name 50 better corners. If it's easy to replace a player, that means there are lots of players that could play better than him. All I'm asking is for you to actually backup your statement.

As for your comment on me "not reading" about your stats, my fault, I wasn't clear enough in my reply. I actually did mention your stats in my reply but what I should have written is that you put no relative context around those numbers. You reciting random stats about one guy in the NFL doesn't tell anyone anything. Matthew Stafford threw for 4,257 yards, 22 TDs and 12 INTs...great, what does that tell me about how well he did compared to the other starting QBs in the NFL? Absolutely nothing. There's no context around the stats. Your statements about Williams lack any context.

I was also pretty clear about using PFF to rank Tramon amongst corners. If you want to look at how I rank defenses, go look at Football Outsiders adjusted defensive rankings, those are very informative (they actually take opponent strength into consideration). PPG is a very good stat but it doesn't tell all; what's more impressive defensively, holding the Packers to 14 points or holding the Raiders to 10 points? That last statement isn't a knock on PPG, which is probably the best indicator of defensive performance, but PPG does have some flaws.

It comes down to this. It's really easy to say a guy isn't very good when you aren't actually backing that statement up. All I'm asking for is for you to backup your statement that Williams isn't a quality corner in the NFL. PFF gives you, for free, an objective, comprehensive ranking of players at all positions. Unless you can categorically say that there are 50+ better corners in the NFL, then it must not be that easy to replace Tramon or else there would be lots of better corners in the NFL.

Tramon's play clearly declined during the 2014 season. Only two other cornerbacks (out of 116) allowed more TD passes than him and he was ranked 61st in yards allowed per coverage snap and 78th in passer rating. The Browns grossly overpaid for him.

Still, replacing him with a better player won't be easy as none of the DBs currently on the roster is best suited to play outside.

BTW I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Shields' performance from last season. He's even ranked behind Tramon in yards per coverage snaps allowed and is only middle of the pack in passer rating. At nearly $10 million a year I expect more out of him.

As of right now the Packers have one proven nickel corner in Hyde. I'm optimistic about the rookies and Goodson but we're talking about the defense improving or regressing compared to last season. If you think the defense is going to improve then you're saying that Hyde/Goodson/rookie is going to be a better nickel corner than Hayward was last season. That's a pretty tall order.

I don't think it's a given Hayward will win the starting job opposite Shields. With Randall and Rollins added to the mix I think we'll be fine at slot corner.

 

[TeamTundra]

The Packers finished 10th in overall passing defense last year, so there were some positive
Accomplishments. I do agree that Tramon's play feel off last year, especially his tackling.
The play that sticks out to me was his missed tackle in the Cowboys playoff game that
Resulted in a 40-yard TD.

In Shield's defense, I believe he was matched up more against the opposing team's number
one receiver and possibly his injury from the Dolphins game hampered his performance.
However, I agree that more is expected from him.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The Packers finished 10th in overall passing defense last year, so there were some positive
Accomplishments. I do agree that Tramon's play feel off last year, especially his tackling.
The play that sticks out to me was his missed tackle in the Cowboys playoff game that
Resulted in a 40-yard TD.

In Shield's defense, I believe he was matched up more against the opposing team's number
one receiver and possibly his injury from the Dolphins game hampered his performance.
However, I agree that more is expected from him.

The Packers finished 7th in opponent's passer rating last season with 82.1, something which is important to Capers. The cornerbacks combined to allow a passer rating of 89.7 during the regular season.

Shields is getting paid like a #1 corner, I expect him to do better vs. an opponent's best receiver.

 

[Megatron]

I don't agree the packers got worse. Losing players doesn't always mean worse.

Also another year together for the offense makes them better. Those young WRs from last year got a year in the system. The offense imo got better.

Jury still out on the defense as peppers is a year older and the D line concerns me but I'm excited about the secondary

I dont't know... everybody proclaims the Lions are worse because they lost one player, Suh. (People that think losing Fairley means anything obviously doesn't know what they are talking about). Losing talent seems to be pretty synonymous with being "worse," regardless of other talent added.

I just checked out a Vikings blog, mostly all of them believe they are going to sweep the Lions because they lost Suh and "only" replaced him with Haloti Ngata. Fairley hardly ever played, and if he did he took most snaps off. Suh and Mosely were the DTs of the 2nd ranked defense, and while Ngata might be a slight downgrade from Suh, Walker and their other guys should be vastly better than CJ Mosely.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I dont't know... everybody proclaims the Lions are worse because they lost one player, Suh. (People that think losing Fairley means anything obviously doesn't know what they are talking about). Losing talent seems to be pretty synonymous with being "worse," regardless of other talent added.

I just checked out a Vikings blog, mostly all of them believe they are going to sweep the Lions because they lost Suh and "only" replaced him with Haloti Ngata. Fairley hardly ever played, and if he did he took most snaps off. Suh and Mosely were the DTs of the 2nd ranked defense, and while Ngata might be a slight downgrade from Suh, Walker and their other guys should be vastly better than CJ Mosely.

Well, losing Suh and Fairley (who was actually pretty productive when being healthy) will have way more negative impact on the Lions than releasing Hawk and Jones will have for the Packers.

In addition Ngata has never played in a 4-3 and I'm not convinced he will be a great fit in the scheme.

 

[Megatron]

Well, losing Suh and Fairley (who was actually pretty productive when being healthy) will have way more negative impact on the Lions than releasing Hawk and Jones will have for the Packers.

In addition Ngata has never played in a 4-3 and I'm not convinced he will be a great fit in the scheme.

Fairley is on a 1 year extremely incentive-laden contract for a reason. He has some talent when he is healthy, but he rarely was, and if he was he takes a majority of plays off. He's been arrested multiple times, for pot and alcohol. Last season he was actually healthy for 7.5 games, and played what most consider his best football of his NFL career. He had 1 sack. Guys at vet min produced more.

Teryl Austin and Caldwell both come from Baltimore, and the Ravens played with a lot of 4-3 looks and played basically a 3-tech last season, except in Detroit he will only have to worry about 1 gap instead of 2, and will rush more. Some experts are predicting a career resurgence for Ngata in Detroits attacking DL scheme.

The Lions still had a dominating top defense, even with Suh and CJ Mosely at DT. Ngata might not be quite as good as Suh, but they have an upgrade from Mosely at the other DT spot. Suh was on a lot of bottom-half ranked defense before last season, so he is hardly the guy that made that defense. A lot of talent is added that is still there. Also, a lot of defenders were lost very early in the season, they will be back.

The only people who think their defense will drop off in any significant way, are people view Suh leaving in a vacuum, yet don't know anything about the Lions roster and the history of that defense. It's the same as people who assume Green Bays loses on D will make them take a step back. Imo saying "our loses don't mean much, but there's does" is a typical homer thing to say.

 

[Jdeed]

Well the Viks and the Lions will run the Ball Better.....that's my takeaway so far.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Fairley is on a 1 year extremely incentive-laden contract for a reason. He has some talent when he is healthy, but he rarely was, and if he was he takes a majority of plays off. He's been arrested multiple times, for pot and alcohol. Last season he was actually healthy for 7.5 games, and played what most consider his best football of his NFL career. He had 1 sack. Guys at vet min produced more.

Teryl Austin and Caldwell both come from Baltimore, and the Ravens played with a lot of 4-3 looks and played basically a 3-tech last season, except in Detroit he will only have to worry about 1 gap instead of 2, and will rush more. Some experts are predicting a career resurgence for Ngata in Detroits attacking DL scheme.

The Lions still had a dominating top defense, even with Suh and CJ Mosely at DT. Ngata might not be quite as good as Suh, but they have an upgrade from Mosely at the other DT spot. Suh was on a lot of bottom-half ranked defense before last season, so he is hardly the guy that made that defense. A lot of talent is added that is still there. Also, a lot of defenders were lost very early in the season, they will be back.

The only people who think their defense will drop off in any significant way, are people view Suh leaving in a vacuum, yet don't know anything about the Lions roster and the history of that defense. It's the same as people who assume Green Bays loses on D will make them take a step back. Imo saying "our loses don't mean much, but there's does" is a typical homer thing to say.

The Lions lost four of their top six defensive lineman from last season as well as all defensive tackles who took any snaps for them aside of Caraun Reid. One of the returning DL (Jason D. Jones) had a really bad season in 2014. The team replaced them with a 31-year old Haloti Ngata who was ranked in the bottom half of all 3-4 defensive ends last year, a promising player in Tyrunn Walker who has only played a total of 400 snaps during his career so far though and Corey Wootton who was absolutely terrible last year. In addition the team spent a fourth round pick on Gabe Wright. All of the other guys they brought in are probably not worth talking about.

If you really think the Lions defensive line will be as good as last season and the Packers lost as much quality as Detroit because of getting rid of one of the worst ILB tandems in the league you´re really out of touch with reality.

 

[PikeBadger]

Whats funny is how most of us (at least its not mentioned much) have forgotten the big hole at center and those clammoring for a center. Thats how good Linsley Is. We are not even thinking about it. Safety is another position that went from panic defcon 2 to a strength in one season.

I believe in the staff and players that Thompson brings in. I was concerned when Tretter got hurt and thought it would result in a scaled back playbook for the first month. Linsely worked through the learning curve very well imo, with minimal hiccups. I was certain that Hyde and Dix would be good enough to get us through the rough spots. The coaching staff did a great job of getting the young kids up to speed.

 

[bigbubbatd]

AP not attending OTAs. Losing money in the process. The drama is not over in Minnesota. People are hyping them but they have a below average wr group, an average at best oline, unsettled rb position and a 2nd year qb. The defense should continue to improve but the offense is a huge question mark especially if ap continues to be a fool

 

[Deleted member 6794]

AP not attending OTAs. Losing money in the process. The drama is not over in Minnesota. People are hyping them but they have a below average wr group, an average at best oline, unsettled rb position and a 2nd year qb. The defense should continue to improve but the offense is a huge question mark especially if ap continues to be a fool

Peterson has a $250,000 workout bonus. He´s due to earn $12.75 million in 2015 so I guess he doesn´t lose any sleep over losing some of the bonus money by not showing up for OTAs.

I agree though that I don´t get all the love for the Vikings either.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Peterson has a $250,000 workout bonus. He´s due to earn $12.75 million in 2015 so I guess he doesn´t lose any sleep over losing some of the bonus money by not showing up for OTAs.

I agree though that I don´t get all the love for the Vikings either.

I agree money isnt huge but now reports are saying he is still requesting a trade. He could be quite the distraction going into the season. The Vikings seem to have dug their heels in and so has Peterson. Peterson has zero leverage so I still think he is playing for the Vikings week 1 but how often does a situation like this turn out well for the player and the team

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The Vikings seem to have dug their heels in and so has Peterson. Peterson has zero leverage so I still think he is playing for the Vikings week 1 but how often does a situation like this turn out well for the player and the team

I've posted several weeks ago that even if Peterson ends up playing for the Vikings that I don't expect an unhappy AP to play close to his potential.

 

[JBlood]

I've posted several weeks ago that even if Peterson ends up playing for the Vikings that I don't expect an unhappy AP to play close to his potential.

Add to that he's 30, and on the downslope of running back performance in the NFL (http://www.footballperspective.com/a-closer-look-at-running-back-aging-patterns-part-ii/). He peaked at age 27 with 2000+ yds, had his 2nd worse rushing total the next year, and played 1 game last year, gaining 75 yds on 23 carries. It may well be that he will no longer be a difference maker.

 

[TJV]

If AP is declining physically and if the year off didn't "recharge" him in that regard, then he obviously won't be what he once was. However, if he is angry/bitter/whatever towards the Vikings front office, that may not affect his camaraderie/attitude towards his teammates or his effort on the field. I really don’t know if the HC or any teammates came to his defense, etc., but it’s possible he's just pissed at the front office and if that’s the case, with a year of rest…

 

[Sunshinepacker]

If you're looking at how much the Vikings have improved, you aren't looking at if AD is going to be his old self, you're asking if he's going to be better than Matt Asiata. I feel pretty comfortable in believing that even a disinterested AD is going to be a much better runner than Asiata. The Vikings actually played the Packers pretty close once Ponder was no longer the QB and now Bridgewater will be in his second year. The Vikings have an improving defense and, with Wallace and AD, have an improved offense (I also really think Diggs is going to be a good receiver). I might be looking at differently than others. I'm not evaluating the Vikings on the basis of whether they're a threat to the Packers, they don't appear to be at this point. However, they DO look like they will field a better overall team in 2015 as compared to 2014. Bridgewater will be better (by itself that's HUGE), AD will be on the field (or the Vikings will have added draft picks via trade or gained salary cap space if he retires), Wallace > Jennings and their defense should only be better.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

If you're looking at how much the Vikings have improved, you aren't looking at if AD is going to be his old self, you're asking if he's going to be better than Matt Asiata. I feel pretty comfortable in believing that even a disinterested AD is going to be a much better runner than Asiata. The Vikings actually played the Packers pretty close once Ponder was no longer the QB and now Bridgewater will be in his second year. The Vikings have an improving defense and, with Wallace and AD, have an improved offense (I also really think Diggs is going to be a good receiver). I might be looking at differently than others. I'm not evaluating the Vikings on the basis of whether they're a threat to the Packers, they don't appear to be at this point. However, they DO look like they will field a better overall team in 2015 as compared to 2014. Bridgewater will be better (by itself that's HUGE), AD will be on the field (or the Vikings will have added draft picks via trade or gained salary cap space if he retires), Wallace > Jennings and their defense should only be better.

There's no denying Peterson would be an upgrade over Asiata and McKinnon. I'm not convinced the Vikings will be vastly improved though as I'm not sure Bridgewater will develop into a decent QB and they didn't defeat a single quality opponent last year.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

There's no denying Peterson would be an upgrade over Asiata and McKinnon. I'm not convinced the Vikings will be vastly improved though as I'm not sure Bridgewater will develop into a decent QB and they didn't defeat a single quality opponent last year.

Bridgewater will be better than he was last year and I'm pretty sure you'll admit he's better than Ponder. Bridgewater doesn't have to be Rodgers to improve the Vikings, he just has to improve over last season, something that's very probable. And wins over quality opponents don't really matter since we're talking about improvement, I think it's very possible they could win a game or two over a couple decent teams next year. And I'm not saying the Vikings are suddenly going to be a 10-11 win team. I'm just saying that they could reach 8-9 wins next year.

 

[Poppa San]

.... And I'm not saying the Vikings are suddenly going to be a 10-11 win team. I'm just saying that they could reach 8-9 wins next year.

As long as none of those wins are over the Packers, I'm good with it.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

As long as none of those wins are over the Packers, I'm good with it.

I have to disagree....Packers play Vikings in week 17 this year. I would ECSTATIC if the Packers lost that game because they were resting all their starters with home field locked up throughout the playoffs (and no, I won't count that as a quality win in that scenario).

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Bridgewater will be better than he was last year and I'm pretty sure you'll admit he's better than Ponder. Bridgewater doesn't have to be Rodgers to improve the Vikings, he just has to improve over last season, something that's very probable. And wins over quality opponents don't really matter since we're talking about improvement, I think it's very possible they could win a game or two over a couple decent teams next year. And I'm not saying the Vikings are suddenly going to be a 10-11 win team. I'm just saying that they could reach 8-9 wins next year.

I agree that Bridgewater as an upgrade over Ponder. The Vikings won seven games last season so getting 8-9 wins won't be a major improvement over last season. It seems though a lot of posters expect them to be way better in 2015.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Ben Goessling reporting on Peterson:

"The 30-year-old running back's series of tweets [complaining that NFL contracts are not fully guaranteed] came a day after he released a statement to ESPN, hinting he wants the Vikings to add guaranteed money to a contract that currently has none and saying he is skipping the start of the team's organized activities because he wants to secure his future in Minnesota."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12971071/adrian-peterson-sounds-minnesota-vikings-contract-stance

So, whatever animus Peterson holds toward the Viking organization might be assuaged with...guaranteed money. Funny how that works.

This begs the question, is Peterson upset with being thrown under the bus reputation-wise, or was he upset primarily by being suspended without pay? Sometimes time (and money) heals all wounds.