Best offseason in the NFC north

[TJV]

While I would have felt more comfortable with House returning, we don’t know how the Packers viewed him. On at least a couple of occasions I thought he was ready to make a major step forward and whether it was injuries or not, that didn’t happen.

Obviously that’s a moot point for the Packers. And so is this but I wanted to post one more time that Tramon Williams’ shoulder injury in the opening game of the 2011 season changed his play significantly. He played the rest of that season with ‘one arm’ and yet only missed one regular season game in his last 5 years. Remember his 2010 season? He was physical with WRs at the LOS and picked off 6 passes in that regular season. He added three more in the Packers post-season run, including the game-ender vs. the Eagles and he batted down the last pass of the Super Bowl to secure the Packers win. IMO the nerve damage from that injury to some extent effects his play to this day; I wonder how his career would have turned out if he hadn’t suffered that injury. The contract he received at the end of November in 2010 was well earned – he was a rising star - and of course the injury wasn’t his fault. Anyway, Tramon laid it all on the line for the Packers and I will always appreciate his contribution to the Packers.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

No I don't think tramon was a quality starter. When QBs threw towards him in coverage they had a 106.5 QB rating and he allowed 10 TDs. At 32 yrs old it's not hard to upgrade from tramon.

As far as Aj he has been regarded as one of the worst linebackers in the league for several years now. Even acme packer blog commented about how you struggle to justify giving him playing time. You saw him get less n less snaps as the season went on. An upgrade could easily be someone who didn't beat him out last season.

I bet you'll be really impressed when you see players doing better than the "quality" guys you talk up.

Funny that Hawk has been one of the worst LBers in the NFL and yet nobody on the roster could beat him out; the players that couldn't pass him on the depth chart are the same guys you're assuming will be revelations this year (or a fourth round rookie because fourth rounders always make an impact). The same logic holds true for Tramon.

The reliance on passer rating to judge the corner doesn't really tell the whole story. Was Tramon one of the top-10 corners in the NFL? Nope. But he did also have 9 passes defended (tied for eighth in the NFL), 3 interceptions (11th in the NFL) and he was seventh in the NFL amongst corners with 61 tackles (8 missed tackles). Not terrific but certainly a solid starting corner in the NFL. I can only assume that you imagine every starting corner in the NFL is amazing in both coverage and tackling? You should look around the NFL at starting corners if you really think it's easy to upgrade over Tramon.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

So I guess in addition to allowing 0 points and forcing 4 turnovers, the defense should have shut down Lynch and forced more three and outs. That's highly unrealistic. The defense set up the offense plenty of times.

There's no way to look at the defense during those 56 minutes as anything but fantastic.

Plus, without analyzing the run plays, you cannot assume that ILB was the issue on them.

You're changing the discussion. I said that slowing down Lynch would have allowed the Packers to win. Yeah, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a defense to hold a running back under 6 yards per carry. THAT'S MY POINT. Everything else you mentioned up there is irrelevant, I never said nor implied any of that.

I'm also pretty comfortable assuming that the ILB has at least some role in stopping the run.

 

[Carl]

You're changing the discussion. I said that slowing down Lynch would have allowed the Packers to win. Yeah, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a defense to hold a running back under 6 yards per carry. THAT'S MY POINT. Everything else you mentioned up there is irrelevant, I never said nor implied any of that.

I'm also pretty comfortable assuming that the ILB has at least some role in stopping the run.

When the offense is doing nothing even with running the ball well it doesn't matter they were running well. Plus, you're assuming the Packers would have scored with an extra possession even though they failed on many opportunities that game.

I'd take 4 turnovers and no points with 6 yards a carry any day.

ILB and not stopping Lynch was not a big factor is losing that game.

 

[mradtke66]

I'd take 4 turnovers and no points with 6 yards a carry any day.

Exactly this. Obviously, the more yards the other guys are getting, the more likely they will eventually score, but I don't care if we give up 700 yards a game so long as we hold them under 17 or 24 points.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

When the offense is doing nothing even with running the ball well it doesn't matter they were running well. Plus, you're assuming the Packers would have scored with an extra possession even though they failed on many opportunities that game.

I'd take 4 turnovers and no points with 6 yards a carry any day.

ILB and not stopping Lynch was not a big factor is losing that game.

And yet again you change the discussion...here's what I said. Having an ILB that could slow down Lynch would have been helpful in winning that game. The Seahawks couldn't pass to save their lives. The only way they moved the ball was on the ground. You don't think better field position would have allowed the Packers to score ONE extra FG, thereby winning the game despite all the errors at the end? Through three quarters, Lynch had 80 yards rushing and Russell Wilson had 63 yards passing (not including sacks). If Lynch doesn't run that well in the first three quarters, the field position is completely different and the Packers are, at the very least, kicking field goals.

I never said the lack of an ILB was a big factor in losing the game. I have said before that Lynch averaging over 6 yards per carry WAS a big factor. If an ILB could have lowered that to 4.5 yards? Packers win that game.

 

[Mondio]

and sometimes you play a defense that will give up running yards to the 50 in order to make other plays, that they obviously were making. I don't care how many yards Lynch had, I didn't even know he was in the game until he had a nice reception on the same play barrington stopped earlier, but chose a very bad angle later, and a couple runs in the 4th quarter.

 

[Notso]

The one thing that I haven't seen anyone mention in regard to the NFCCG was the spectacular effort and self belief that Seattle exhibited. We've all heard a million times "no matter what, keep digging and keep believing" etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. It always sounds like just another canned response, or "coach speak" if you will but Seattle actually went out there and did it. They also had some luck. Everything seemed to fall their way in those last few minutes. But even with a little luck they still had to make the plays, and they did. It seems like the whole world wants to indict the Packer defense and ST but nobody wants to credit Seattle. I just don't get that.

As for ILB, I have to trust in TT and MM. They've had this team competitive for quite a few years and it's built to remain competitive for many more years. None of that happened by accident. I have to assume that they have a plan. Seeing as how we have almost "an embarrassment of riches" at OLB perhaps they're going to use Clay inside some more or maybe even one of the others. I saw where somebody said "Peppers can't play inside." Why not? Has it ever been tried? If I have to drop a LB into coverage, why not the one that's 6'-7" and runs like a freakin' gazelle? The way Capers like to use different personnel groupings and disguise things there are a ton of possibilities.

 

[ivo610]

Funny that Hawk has been one of the worst LBers in the NFL and yet nobody on the roster could beat him out; the players that couldn't pass him on the depth chart are the same guys you're assuming will be revelations this year (or a fourth round rookie because fourth rounders always make an impact). The same logic holds true for Tramon.

The reliance on passer rating to judge the corner doesn't really tell the whole story. Was Tramon one of the top-10 corners in the NFL? Nope. But he did also have 9 passes defended (tied for eighth in the NFL), 3 interceptions (11th in the NFL) and he was seventh in the NFL amongst corners with 61 tackles (8 missed tackles). Not terrific but certainly a solid starting corner in the NFL. I can only assume that you imagine every starting corner in the NFL is amazing in both coverage and tackling? You should look around the NFL at starting corners if you really think it's easy to upgrade over Tramon.

Like how Rodgers couldn't beat out Brett for the starting job meant he wasn't nearly as good right? Lol

not sure if you noticed the snap count reduction for hawk. He might have gone into the season as the starter but he sure seemed to be transitioning onto the bench

I love this concept you have that players stay the same. That younger players don't improve and older players are just as good as they were in their prime.

Tramon Williams had those numbers bc he was thrown at a lot (see QB rating when throwing towards him). He was the weak point in the secondary. The money he got in free agency should be considered theft

 

[PikeBadger]

I love this concept you have that players stay the same. That younger players don't improve and older players are just as good as they were in their prime.

I think the concept that players skills and level of play being static is put on display by many posters here especially when projecting what the team will be like next season, and I've never understood that way of thinking. I see both the Packers and Badgers players change as the season progresses and I see it happen every year.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

ILB and not stopping Lynch was not a big factor is losing that game.

Lynch's production was a non-factor for three quarters. He had 8 carries for 77 yards and a TD as well as a 26 yard reception that set up another TD in the fourth quarter and overtime. He was a huge factor in the Seahawks turning around that game and being able to stop him in the fourth quarter and OT would have resulted in the Packers winning the game.

As for ILB, I have to trust in TT and MM. They've had this team competitive for quite a few years and it's built to remain competitive for many more years. None of that happened by accident. I have to assume that they have a plan. Seeing as how we have almost "an embarrassment of riches" at OLB perhaps they're going to use Clay inside some more or maybe even one of the others. I saw where somebody said "Peppers can't play inside." Why not? Has it ever been tried? If I have to drop a LB into coverage, why not the one that's 6'-7" and runs like a freakin' gazelle? The way Capers like to use different personnel groupings and disguise things there are a ton of possibilities.

Peppers can't play inside linebacker. While he occasionally drops into coverage (a total of 36 times last season) teams would exploit the mismatch with him covering RBs or TEs constantly.

Like how Rodgers couldn't beat out Brett for the starting job meant he wasn't nearly as good right? Lol

More like Terrell Manning or D.J. Smith not being able to move past Hawk and Jones on the depth chart because they weren't any good.

Right now the roster features a fourth round pick who has played inside linebacker for one season in college in Jake Ryan, two converted OLBs (Bradford, Palmer) another two undrafted guys (Thomas, Dantzler) and a guy who last played a down of football two years ago and was signed off an Indoor Football League team (Francis) competing for the starting spot opposite of Barrington.

It's beyond my understanding how anyone can feel comfortable about that group.

 

[ivo610]

It's beyond my understanding how anyone can feel comfortable about that group.

Just like last season when it was beyond your understanding how we could go into the season with a Center that had no experience?

 

[AmishMafia]

Just like last season when it was beyond your understanding how we could go into the season with a Center that had no experience?

Whats funny is how most of us (at least its not mentioned much) have forgotten the big hole at center and those clammoring for a center. Thats how good Linsley Is. We are not even thinking about it. Safety is another position that went from panic defcon 2 to a strength in one season.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Just like last season when it was beyond your understanding how we could go into the season with a Center that had no experience?

Yes, I was concerned about the center position going into the 2014 season but not even close to the level as I still am with the inside linebackers. How has that worked out over at least the last two seasons???

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Safety is another position that went from panic defcon 2 to a strength in one season.

True, that's because Thompson addressed the position by selecting the best free safety available in the first round during last year's draft.

He hasn't done that at inside linebacker though.

 

[ivo610]

True, that's because Thompson addressed the position by selecting the best free safety available in the first round during last year's draft.

He hasn't done that at inside linebacker though.

I don't think he values the position to be honest.

I do expect an improvement over Aj but I see you don't share the optimism

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don't think he values the position to be honest.

I do expect an improvement over Aj but I see you don't share the optimism

There´s no denying the position has been devalued in the NFL. The Packers ILBs combined to play more than 2,000 snaps last season so mostly ignoring the position isn´t a smart move.

 

[Half Empty]

The one thing that I haven't seen anyone mention in regard to the NFCCG was the spectacular effort and self belief that Seattle exhibited. We've all heard a million times "no matter what, keep digging and keep believing" etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. It always sounds like just another canned response, or "coach speak" if you will but Seattle actually went out there and did it. They also had some luck. Everything seemed to fall their way in those last few minutes. But even with a little luck they still had to make the plays, and they did. It seems like the whole world wants to indict the Packer defense and ST but nobody wants to credit Seattle. I just don't get that.

I think most folks would argue that you need to change the modifiers 'some' and 'a little' when referring to the luck factor. And, your evaluation of everything falling into place is correct. The reason that the rah-rah stuff comes out as blah, blah, blah is that, in the million times you've heard it, 999,999 of those it has been just talk. Seattle's 'doing it right' was minimal - I could have recovered the onside kick the way it was played, and no Seahawk could have recovered if it'd been played correctly. I could have caught the two-point conversion the way it was played, and no Seahawk could have done so if our DB notices the wounded duck. I don't want to list the other dozen failures in the last few minutes because it would mean I'd have to re-live them, but I'm sure most of them were Packer failures versus Seahawk accomplishments. And, remember, if any one of those goes the other way, we win.

If you want to pick the real rah-rah, one-in-a-million situation, the 1993 AFC Bills/Oilers playoff game is the one to choose.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Like how Rodgers couldn't beat out Brett for the starting job meant he wasn't nearly as good right? Lol

not sure if you noticed the snap count reduction for hawk. He might have gone into the season as the starter but he sure seemed to be transitioning onto the bench

I love this concept you have that players stay the same. That younger players don't improve and older players are just as good as they were in their prime.

Tramon Williams had those numbers bc he was thrown at a lot (see QB rating when throwing towards him). He was the weak point in the secondary. The money he got in free agency should be considered theft

You said that it wouldn't be that hard to transition from Tramon...you seem to think Tramon was terrible. According to PFF he was the 32nd best corner in the NFL last year. Could you go through and let me know of 60+ plus better corners in the NFL? Also, since the Packers lost House as well, let me know how many nickel backs are better than the Packer's options.

You love that I think players are static (which I don't). I love that you can make blanket statements about Tramon's skill level with absolutely no backup. You list off stats like that's the end of the story. It's not. If Tramon is so easily replaced, give me a list of the corners in the NFL last year who were better than Tramon. You can't just say a player is bad without any information about how the other 63 starting corners played.

All I've said is that the defense will probably take a step back next year. You honestly think a team loses a starting linebacker, starting corner and backup corner and replaces said players with 3 rookies and the defense is going to improve? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

and sometimes you play a defense that will give up running yards to the 50 in order to make other plays, that they obviously were making. I don't care how many yards Lynch had, I didn't even know he was in the game until he had a nice reception on the same play barrington stopped earlier, but chose a very bad angle later, and a couple runs in the 4th quarter.

Proving that all people care about are flashy plays, unfortunately it's not only flashy plays that win football games.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Also, since the Packers lost House as well, let me know how many nickel backs are better than the Packer's options.

I share your concern about the other outside cornerback opposite Shields but the Packers have a ton of defensive backs best suited of playing in the slot in nickel and dime schemes.

 

[ivo610]

You said that it wouldn't be that hard to transition from Tramon...you seem to think Tramon was terrible. According to PFF he was the 32nd best corner in the NFL last year. Could you go through and let me know of 60+ plus better corners in the NFL? Also, since the Packers lost House as well, let me know how many nickel backs are better than the Packer's options.

You love that I think players are static (which I don't). I love that you can make blanket statements about Tramon's skill level with absolutely no backup. You list off stats like that's the end of the story. It's not. If Tramon is so easily replaced, give me a list of the corners in the NFL last year who were better than Tramon. You can't just say a player is bad without any information about how the other 63 starting corners played.

All I've said is that the defense will probably take a step back next year. You honestly think a team loses a starting linebacker, starting corner and backup corner and replaces said players with 3 rookies and the defense is going to improve? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

Seriously... Wtf are you talking about with your "name 60+ better corners!"? That's the most ridiculous statement on here this week.

"Absolutely no back up"... You must have missed where I posted actual stats not rankings. Go back and read.

I don't think the defense will take a major step back. My concerns are with peppers dropping off due to age, the D line, and a possible injury bug revisiting the team.

Since you love to talk, why don't you name the stats (no power rankings bud) that you look at to rank defenses. Name them and then we can revisit this. I'm more of a ppg kinda guy not a yards guy. I value turnovers on defense when measuring defenses as well.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

While I would have felt more comfortable with House returning, we don’t know how the Packers viewed him. On at least a couple of occasions I thought he was ready to make a major step forward and whether it was injuries or not, that didn’t happen.

Obviously that’s a moot point for the Packers. And so is this but I wanted to post one more time that Tramon Williams’ shoulder injury in the opening game of the 2011 season changed his play significantly. He played the rest of that season with ‘one arm’ and yet only missed one regular season game in his last 5 years. Remember his 2010 season? He was physical with WRs at the LOS and picked off 6 passes in that regular season. He added three more in the Packers post-season run, including the game-ender vs. the Eagles and he batted down the last pass of the Super Bowl to secure the Packers win. IMO the nerve damage from that injury to some extent effects his play to this day; I wonder how his career would have turned out if he hadn’t suffered that injury. The contract he received at the end of November in 2010 was well earned – he was a rising star - and of course the injury wasn’t his fault. Anyway, Tramon laid it all on the line for the Packers and I will always appreciate his contribution to the Packers.

All good points. He was on fire in 2010 and proved himself to be a "money" player in the March to the SB. That shoulder injury altered his career, a total shame. But he wasn't worth the money he got in FA, so off he goes. He will be remembered as a Packer great.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Seriously... Wtf are you talking about with your "name 60+ better corners!"? That's the most ridiculous statement on here this week.

"Absolutely no back up"... You must have missed where I posted actual stats not rankings. Go back and read.

I don't think the defense will take a major step back. My concerns are with peppers dropping off due to age, the D line, and a possible injury bug revisiting the team.

Since you love to talk, why don't you name the stats (no power rankings bud) that you look at to rank defenses. Name them and then we can revisit this. I'm more of a ppg kinda guy not a yards guy. I value turnovers on defense when measuring defenses as well.

I don't think the D will take anything like a step back this year. I loved how Tramon played in 2010 but the shboulder injury was huge. I like what TT did in the draft.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Seriously... Wtf are you talking about with your "name 60+ better corners!"? That's the most ridiculous statement on here this week.

"Absolutely no back up"... You must have missed where I posted actual stats not rankings. Go back and read.

I don't think the defense will take a major step back. My concerns are with peppers dropping off due to age, the D line, and a possible injury bug revisiting the team.

Since you love to talk, why don't you name the stats (no power rankings bud) that you look at to rank defenses. Name them and then we can revisit this. I'm more of a ppg kinda guy not a yards guy. I value turnovers on defense when measuring defenses as well.

There are 64 starting corners in the NFL. That's a mathematical fact. Tramon Williams was a starting corner in the NFL last season. If you're saying it's easy to replace Tramon, then you're saying that it's easy to find a better starting corner in the NFL. So, according to your logic, that means that Tramon must be worse than a lot of corners in the NFL, I chose 60 because it was a nice, round number. Go ahead and name 50 better corners. If it's easy to replace a player, that means there are lots of players that could play better than him. All I'm asking is for you to actually backup your statement.

As for your comment on me "not reading" about your stats, my fault, I wasn't clear enough in my reply. I actually did mention your stats in my reply but what I should have written is that you put no relative context around those numbers. You reciting random stats about one guy in the NFL doesn't tell anyone anything. Matthew Stafford threw for 4,257 yards, 22 TDs and 12 INTs...great, what does that tell me about how well he did compared to the other starting QBs in the NFL? Absolutely nothing. There's no context around the stats. Your statements about Williams lack any context.

I was also pretty clear about using PFF to rank Tramon amongst corners. If you want to look at how I rank defenses, go look at Football Outsiders adjusted defensive rankings, those are very informative (they actually take opponent strength into consideration). PPG is a very good stat but it doesn't tell all; what's more impressive defensively, holding the Packers to 14 points or holding the Raiders to 10 points? That last statement isn't a knock on PPG, which is probably the best indicator of defensive performance, but PPG does have some flaws.

It comes down to this. It's really easy to say a guy isn't very good when you aren't actually backing that statement up. All I'm asking for is for you to backup your statement that Williams isn't a quality corner in the NFL. PFF gives you, for free, an objective, comprehensive ranking of players at all positions. Unless you can categorically say that there are 50+ better corners in the NFL, then it must not be that easy to replace Tramon or else there would be lots of better corners in the NFL.