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Are left tackles overrated?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by ivo610, Jul 24, 2012.

  1. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Looking at the recent starting left tackles of SB teams, and how the teams with elite left tackles have been performing I am questioning the importance of the position. What do you guys think?

    Does this fall into the category of false conventional wisdom?
     
  2. Vltrophy

    Vltrophy Cheesehead

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    I would say LT as a position isn't over rated as your protecting the blind side of the QB w/the exception of Vick as he's left handed so it's his RT. if we're just talking bout the SB teams then I would say no it's not over rated. Clifton did a great job of protecting Rodgers in the SB. As far as elite teams then part of the reason they are elite is b/c of the LT protecting the blind side(good movie by the way)of their QB
     
  3. slaughter25

    slaughter25 Cheesehead

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    I think with the baby boy rules we have placed to protect Qbs from getting looked at funny now a days has diminished the value of the LT a little bit. I mean you dont have Lawrence Taylor or Deacon Jones lining up every play promising to break whatever thing they can get a hold of on your franchise player because even to mention it would probably come along with a 25 k price tag, to dismantle a QB, maybe even a suspension if you didnt softly lay him down to the turf. Couple that with the athleticism you are seeing out of Qbs like Vick, Rodgers, maybe Rg3. And the pocket presence of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady Qb's are simple avoiding the rush better now than ever IMO. One last thing that I think diminished the role of the LT is all the explosive 5-7 yard throws and 4-5 wr sets. Team are lining up and making a throw mere seconds after the ball is snapped, add that with already being in shotgun, and a lot of the time the most impact a d-line guy can make is to put their hands up and hope for a deflection.
     
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  4. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Good question. I think slaughter25 hit on the reasons OL as pass blockers have a somewhat diminished role but IMO the LT (or the OT lining up the majority of the time on the weak side of the formation) is still the most important pass blocker on the OL. I wouldn't emphasize the rules against "dirty" hits because any hits against the QB can ruin a season and even if the defender gets penalized, if the QB is injured the damage has already been done. But the rest of that post is dead on IMO.

    Looking at the Packers' 2011 season could lead one to ask the question posed in this thread. Clifton was barely a shadow of his former self when he was healthy enough to play and Newhouse challenged Rodgers' durability by giving up 10.5 sacks and 41.5 pressures. Yet the Packers went 15-1, so how important can the LT position be? Reischel had a story on jsonline last month in which he mentioned Newhouse's quick feet and intelligence but also noted
    http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/tackling-problem-4t5vj4o-161512635.html


    Of course during the regular season the Packers beat Denver, the Giants, and everyone else except KC. But what happened in the playoff game? Clifton started the game but had to be replaced in the first half. Unfortunately he started the second half and as the Packers were driving down the field with the opening drive of that half, Clifton got beaten so badly and quickly (I don't believe he even touched the DE) the ball was knocked out of Rodgers hand as he was about to pass it to a wide open Jennings on the left sideline. The quality of play of the LT matters most in the biggest games. And the Packers' prolific offense is even better if it doesn't have to help the LT pass block consistently.

    If Newhouse is the starter, he has to be better than he was last season or Rodgers will be more exposed to injury than he needs to be (and someone will resurrect this thread and answer "NO" in huge font) . I do expect him to be better but I also hope Sherrod is 100% at some point in the season so there's a real competition for that most important OL spot.
     
  5. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Ironic that it was Newhouse getting beaten like a drum by Hali who A) caused bad plays for the Packers, and B) allowed Hali to run right around him again, and ultimately smash into Sherrod's planted leg. Now Sherrod will be less of a threat to his starting LT position, coincidentally. Sherrod is very talented, which is why he was our 1st round pick. Newhouse is talented and smart as well.

    Bottom line is if the LT is a problem, there can and will be problems for the QB eventually.

    That strip sack by the Giants JPP was awful as McCarthy called a 7-man protection and a 3-step drop. He got the defense he wanted, and Jennings was wide open for a momentum-changing TD, but Rodgers didn't even have time to get the pass out. That wasn't all on Clifton though as it was an inside stunt from the Giants.
     
  6. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    If I was a GM I would have a tough time drafting a LT in the top 15 of the draft. It seems like a wasted pick. Just like drafting a RB that high.

    Minnesota made a mistake taking a tackle so early and will regret it. How much better does joe Thomas make the browns? Not much judging by what they pay him and how they did last season. Jake long? Same thing. Jordan gross in carolina? Again more of the same.
     
  7. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    That's true about those guys, and Anthony Munoz never won a ring either.
    But whoever is at LT, wherever he was drafted, the performance there at the hot corner is very, very important.

    I agree totally on RBs being drafted high. Unless they are special, better off to wait til rounds 3, 4, 5 etc.

    Even those who justified their high pick (LaDanian Tomlinson & Adrian Peterson) with greatness, did it lead to any rings? Not even any Super Bowl appearances actually.
    MJD & Ray Rice were not even 1st round picks. Arian Foster was undrafted. How would you like those 3 in your fantasy football league?

    Felix Jones was a 1st rounder, so was Donald Brown.
     
  8. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    How important is Darell Revis, Charles Woodson etc... They try to neutralize the wide receivers so the offense is less effective. The LT tries to neutralize the teams best pass rushers so the offense can run more efficiently. The game starts and ends in the trenches. The offensive line rarely gets praised when they are doing good and gets ridiculed when they play bad. O-Lineman are under appreciated. Sure you would like to get an all star qb or pass rusher in the top 15 but if none of those are there and you got a stud LT you should most definitely take him.
     
  9. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Why? teams with great ones that they took in the top of the 1st round never see much of a difference in the win column when they draft one and teams with crappy ones are winning the SB.
     
  10. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    Because the teams that are taking the top LTs in the first round are already deficient of talent and have a bad team already. The browns have always drafted in the top 5, Miami, etc.. It is because they don't have a good QB. QBs win games. If you don't have a solid qb, your team isn't going to win. When you have a bad offensive line your qb is going to get hit often and that is going to create problems while trying to run an offense. When Rodgers had his first year of starting, all I heard was how the offensive line is so bad and how much we needed help. Rodgers got sacked like 50 something times that year. Since then we have bolstered the O- Line and I have not heard much complaints since. Why? because we got better Talent on the offensive line. The reason LT is so important is because it is the most important position on the O line next to the Center.
     
  11. G0PackG0

    G0PackG0 Cheesehead

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    Ask the QB lol
     
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  12. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Ding ding! I don't find the position to be overrated. Is protecting your QB unimportant? I think they got a little overexposed by the movie The Blind Side, but that does not diminish their importance.
     
  13. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    I did, and Eli just smiled with his 2 rings even though his left tackle has graded out to be the worst at pass blocking over the past 3 years.

    Big Ben with his 2 rings said he doesnt mind plays breaking down with his patch work offensive line.

    Drew Brees with his 1 ring says his team spends its money on Guards.
     
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  14. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    So you're saying center is the most important position on the O line? Yet historically the draft disagrees with you as its rare for a center to be drafted in the 1st round. GMs just dont feel they are worth it. Look at Konz, best center in the draft last season and considered a better C than what has come out of college in the recent years. 5 tackles were taken ahead of him, and 4 guards. If you believe a center is the most important position on the O line then you also believe they are vastly underdrafted and GMs have been making mistakes for decades.

    You say teams at the top of the first round already have a bad team, so why take a Tackle then if you wont see an adjusted win column? Isnt that a waste of a pick? Why not take a defensive player? (would say WR but the bust potential is too high) Has Joe Thomas made the Browns that much better to justify being picked ahead of Patrick Willis, Revis, or even AP who I believe would give them a few more wins but ultimately leave them as avg...

    "When you have a bad offensive line your qb is going to get hit often and that is going to create problems while trying to run an offense. When Rodgers had his first year of starting, all I heard was how the offensive line is so bad and how much we needed help. Rodgers got sacked like 50 something times that year."

    interesting theory... just not true. Since 2008, Rodgers first year starting, the Packers have never had a passing offense that was worse than 5th in the league.
     
  15. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    Ask again how Big Ben's body feels. Every year he is injured and he has to play with a boot or something wrapped up .

    Ask Eli how this feels [​IMG]

    See me and other packers fans don't like to see Aaron Rodgers get hit. While you may not care much for the LT position, I know you don't want to see this happen [​IMG]
     
  16. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Winning is the most important thing to me. I'll take the trophies over everything else, but I guess the ring isn't the thing for some fans.

    I'll play my little violin for the QBs. If you don't expect to get knocked silly in this game go find a different profession.
     
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  17. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    Center is the MLB of the offense besides the QB. Why do you think Aaron Rodgers wanted Scott Wells badly so back. Because He was one of the smartest players on the team and helped the offense make adjustments at the line before the play was called. The reason why they aren't drafted so high is because of this responsibility. They are required to make signal calls at the line. Something they do not do in college and can not be simply put thrusted into a situation like that. Tell me this. Why are GM's taking tackles so early in the draft if you know so much. Why did TT take Derek Sherrod and Bulaga in the first round 2 and 3 years ago. When TT is considered one of the best GMs.

    Here is some info for you on the draft. Teams rate players differently compared to other players. Teams draft differently than other teams. Teams can draft based on need or value. Teams drafts are looked at a couple years after they have happened and then are rated accordingly. If everyone knew how good the player would do in the NFL, we wouldn't have busts now would we. Tom Brady would have been picked number 1 in his draft if everyone knew how good he would of turned out. Instead he was a 7th round draft pick can you tell me why that is? Never mind I'll tell you. Every team had a majority of the players in the draft class rated higher than Tom Brady. Now looking back at the draft class it is pretty obvious that the Browns made a bad decision taking Joe Thomas over all those players. Just like all the teams are kicking themselves in the *** after not taking Aaron Rodgers. The reason why the Brown probably took Joe Thomas over all those guys is because they had him higher on the board then everyone else or they didn't think highly of all the other guys.

    If you want to try to ignore the fact that defensive pressure on the QB doesn't apply, be my guest. All i know is that is much easier to throw with a nice clean pocket then with a big D linemen in his face. If you want to see how defensive pressure can affect the QB, watch the the patriots get beat in the playoffs against the giants in the 2007 superbowl. Hell you can even watch this years playoff lost against the giants. Their defense affected our offense quite a bit.
     
  18. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Overrated, possibly. But LT's are still a very important position.

    I think the importance of the LT position and their duties vary depending on the team, the offensive strategy and the QB.
     
  19. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    Winning is the most important thing. Winning takes a TEAM effort. The best teams are good in all aspects of the game. That includes a solid O Line. I know if you were the GM you would never draft an offensive linemen and would bring out 1 qb and 10 receivers but it just doesn't always work that way. It may work that way in flag football but not in the NFL. Also if you like winning so much you would understand that the only way the Packers can win is if we have Aaron Rodgers upright and playing all 16 games and hopefully throughout the playoffs.
     
  20. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Your snarky comments made me laugh. Dont get upset about this, try and provide facts.

    "If I know so much", makes you sound angry. Was Sherrod or Bulaga taken in the top half of the draft? No neither were. Not overvalued.

    I think Joe Thomas is exactly what they hoped he would be. He is on his way to a solid hall of fame career and should be an all decade player. Consistently the best tackle in the league. The argument is his position is valued too highly over others, Joe as a player has played as highly as you could dream of, but even the best left tackle isnt worth being picked that high.

    As I previously pointed out to you, the quality of the O line has gone up and down since Rodgers took over. Yet the packers never fell out of the top 5 on passing offense. That proves that the O line has little impact on the our offensive output.

    I think you actually without knowing it, reiterated my point. You use the 2007 SB as an example (went to that game and loved every second of it) where the Giants won the SB with a dominate pass rush and a below avg left tackle. The value in that team was the defensive line, not the offensive line. They got by with a left tackle that wasnt very good in pass protection and dominated a fairly good patriots offensive line with a great D line.
     
  21. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    You dont need to be good at all aspects of the game. I think thats the biggest crock of sh*t ever. Teams cant be good at everything with todays salary cap, this isnt fantasy football. You need to carefully pick and choose where you spend your money/draft picks. And again, if you need to be good at all aspects to win, how come teams are winning the superbowl consistently, with a sub par O line?

    Thank for making assumptions on what I would do as a GM, but you are still very much missing the point. I wouldnt take an offensive lineman with the first 15 picks unless it was the only option. I wouldnt take a WR in the 1st round either, or a RB in the 1st round either. I think TEs are historically underdrafted, but thats about to change due with what NE and NO have been doing.
     
  22. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Three random points:

    The Packers won their most recent Super Bowl with an excellent pass blocking LT.

    Tom Brady was drafted in the sixth round.;)

    LTs are valued by NFL GMs more highly than OCs. For proof, look at draft position and average salaries. It's a lot easier to find capable OCs than it is to find capable LTs as LTs usually face the opponent's best pass rusher.
     
  23. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    Can't "hide" a bad LT like you can an interior lineman. They're on an island. You pay a premium for an excellent LT and you don't for interior. I know you know that, Jack. I'm just reiterating.
     
  24. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    He should be a type of player drafted that high. Revis, Willis, and AP should all have been taken over him but he should still be in the top 15.


    I watch the game with my eyes I don't use stats to support everything. Passing offense is just based on yards. If you watched the games in his first couple years the O line was a big problem. Watch a couple of those Vikings games where Jared Allen absolutely destroyed us. We had Holding penalties every second false starts etc.. Also remember you are watching the best QB in the league and the best passer against a pass rush and realize that every team does not have this benefit.

    Your claim goes both ways. The patriots didn't block that great in that game. If they did, the Patriots would of had no problem throwing the ball. But because their offensive line didn't block well they got steam rolled. GMs want to get that pass rusher to put pressure on the QB, so GMs don't want other teams doing that to their team, so they draft LTs to block the other teams pass rush. Offensive linemen rarely get credit for their play. They just get blamed for their faults. While D linemen get credit for their success. All I'm saying is that there are offensive linemen that deserve to go into the top 15.
     
  25. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    Also here are some offensive line rankings. Now you can actually determine if the O Line is sub par or not instead of making up your own rankings to support your claim. Fun Fact Giants are number 14 which is above the upper midway point. Also Packers have the Number 1 offensive line which is nice because the O Line helped Rodgers have a nice clean pocket and helped him have one of the best QB performances in recent years. http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/40484/179/2012-offensive-line-rankings
     
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