Aaron has A LOT to PROVE now...

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Cheesehead
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My apologies if it came off like I was claiming Rodgers no longer needed to be good with the new contract, that's not what I meant. What I was pushing back against is the idea that Rodgers hasn't already proven that he's worth the contract, given that he continues to play at a high level. Yes, obviously if he turns into Jamarcus Russell then he'll be awful (heck, if he turns into Ryan Tannehill he'll be a bust with that contract.

That's obviously the killer qualifier. IF Matthews, Cobb, Bulaga (?), Crosby, Perry (as in actually playing), et. al. had continued playing at a high level, their contracts wouldn't be the abominations that they are - and, by the way, so much of this season might have been very different. So, although it may be a semantic problem, I still want AR to prove he's worth it going forward.
 

longtimefan

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And throwing it to the wide open receiver for a first down is better than either.

I'll eat my crow if I am wrong, but my prediction is we see the best Packers offense all season Sunday. Along with the best Rodgers so far in 2018
I think that too.. So would that be proff Rodgers distain? For mm made his play suffer?
 

Sunshinepacker

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Not hostile.. Sorry if it came across.

I gave my reasons, why.. You can't so then we will leave it at that.

It's kind of like golf, or a certain field goal kicker; it's tough to get into someone's head. Yeah, physically Rodgers looks ok. Then again, football players are shot up with so much stuff that it's remarkable they can feel anything. I'm not excusing his mistakes as "just injury", simply mentioning that injury, and the associated mental blocks, might be a part of the problem. I agree that Rodgers looks physically ok, so the only apparent options for him to be missing as often as he is (to be clear, there are still 25 NFL teams that would take him in a second) are that he's either mentally off on his mechanics (could be lack of trust in oline, protecting knee, getting sloppy, doesn't trust offense) or he's starting to slip and decline. I'm thinking it's the prior and that a new coach and new season will allow him to get back to the QB we've regularly seen in the past.
 

Sunshinepacker

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That's obviously the killer qualifier. IF Matthews, Cobb, Bulaga (?), Crosby, Perry (as in actually playing), et. al. had continued playing at a high level, their contracts wouldn't be the abominations that they are - and, by the way, so much of this season might have been very different. So, although it may be a semantic problem, I still want AR to prove he's worth it going forward.

All of those guys but Perry I can <sort of> give a pass too. Matthews was crushed being forced to play ILB for a couple of seasons (I can't remember who but I remember about a decade ago there was a study on guys moving to ILB and that the wear and tear took them apart), Cobb just fell apart from unexpected injuries, Crosby has been worth it until this year so I'll hope it's just the yips (he needs competition in camp though), and Bulaga is great when healthy....Perry though, oh Perry. He's the guy you can point to and say, "I knew when he signed that deal it was a mistake." Should be a rule etched in stone in every GM's office, "DON'T GIVE A GUY WHO ONLY PLAYS WELL IN A CONTRACT SEASON A BIG CONTRACT". Perry was CONSTANTLY hurt but played through those injuries in a contract year and Thompson fell for it. While there were other factors at play in the trade, without Perry the Packers would at least have had the cap space to make a more compelling offer for Khalil Mack if TT hadn't compounded his recent awful drafts by doubling down on Perry.
 

Sunshinepacker

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And throwing it to the wide open receiver for a first down is better than either.

I'll eat my crow if I am wrong, but my prediction is we see the best Packers offense all season Sunday. Along with the best Rodgers so far in 2018

I'll just be happy if Philbin gives Aaron Jones 80% of the RB touches....HOW FREAKING HARD IS THIS MM?!?!

Also, the Falcons are awful on defense (much worse than the Cardinals) so it wouldn't be shocking to see a big improvement from nothing more than the Falcons not having a great corner like Peterson and a great pass rusher like Chandler Jones.
 

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There comes a point when every big contract isn't worth it. It's why there are big name guys getting cut from every team every year. Football is hard to predict and one injury can send someone from the top to done in a season.
 

rmontro

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I was watching the Vikings and the Seahawks and they ran a graphic showing that Russel Wilson has the top passer rating of all time with 103.3.
I looked at several other sources, and they still show Rodgers leading with 104.3 (and Wilson with like 100.4). But it's possible those aren't updated to include this season.

Anyway, let's say that ESPN is correct and Wilson now has the top passer rating. That was one of the two big stats that people pointed to when saying Rodgers was the GOAT. It appears he's now lost one of those (although he could get it back by season's end). The other big stat is the TD-INT ratio.
 
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PackinMSP

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Passer rating is overrated

I believe wins and Super Bowls is more important
 
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I was watching the Vikings and the Seahawks and they ran a graphic showing that Russel Wilson has the top passer rating of all time with 103.3.
I looked at several other sources, and they still show Rodgers leading with 104.3 (and Wilson with like 100.4). But it's possible those aren't updated to include this season.

Anyway, let's say that ESPN is correct and Wilson now has the top passer rating. That was one of the two big stats that people pointed to when saying Rodgers was the GOAT. It appears he's now lost one of those (although he could get it back by season's end). The other big stat is the TD-INT ratio.

I didn't watch yesterday's game so I have no idea what ESPN showed on their broadcast but Rodgers is still the all-time leader in passer rating at 103.4 with Wilson being second at 100.5.
 

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I didn't watch yesterday's game so I have no idea what ESPN showed on their broadcast but Rodgers is still the all-time leader in passer rating at 103.4 with Wilson being second at 100.5.
Probably true
I was watching the Vikings and the Seahawks and they ran a graphic showing that Russel Wilson has the top passer rating of all time with 103.3.
I looked at several other sources, and they still show Rodgers leading with 104.3 (and Wilson with like 100.4). But it's possible those aren't updated to include this season.

Anyway, let's say that ESPN is correct and Wilson now has the top passer rating. That was one of the two big stats that people pointed to when saying Rodgers was the GOAT. It appears he's now lost one of those (although he could get it back by season's end). The other big stat is the TD-INT ratio.
Seeing as it was ESPN, the show most likely used their self aggrandizing and totally made up because they don't divulge the algorithm, QBR.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I was watching the Vikings and the Seahawks and they ran a graphic showing that Russel Wilson has the top passer rating of all time with 103.3.
I looked at several other sources, and they still show Rodgers leading with 104.3 (and Wilson with like 100.4). But it's possible those aren't updated to include this season.

Anyway, let's say that ESPN is correct and Wilson now has the top passer rating. That was one of the two big stats that people pointed to when saying Rodgers was the GOAT. It appears he's now lost one of those (although he could get it back by season's end). The other big stat is the TD-INT ratio.
For what it is worth, those numbers are incorrect.

Wilson's QB rating is 100.1 not including yesterday's game which might have knocked it down a tenth. Rodgers is at 103.4 through all 14 games.

To illustrate, go here:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsRu00.htm or here http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/14881/russell-wilson

If you dont trust those numbers, then plug the data into this calculator: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/about/qb-rating.htm
 

Un4GivN

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I'll just be happy if Philbin gives Aaron Jones 80% of the RB touches....HOW FREAKING HARD IS THIS MM?!?!

Also, the Falcons are awful on defense (much worse than the Cardinals) so it wouldn't be shocking to see a big improvement from nothing more than the Falcons not having a great corner like Peterson and a great pass rusher like Chandler Jones.

I was at the game (birthday present from the wife) and let me tell you, the Falcons defense was as bad as advertised. Sat next to a group of guys from the Atlanta that kept calling it the disappointment bowl. And though the Packers seems somewhat better, it was really hard for me to disagree.

Rodgers still only put up 196 yards on 32 attempts... 6.125 yards per attempt, which is in Josh Allen territory for worst in the league. BUT on a positive he did take some checkdowns, made a couple of Aaron Rodgers throws.

Still a long way from good, but I'll take anything at this point.

BTW: Jones 17 carries 3 targets
Williams 4 carries 1 target

Right on 80%.... I guess they do listen to these forums.
 

Curly Calhoun

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I was at the game (birthday present from the wife) and let me tell you, the Falcons defense was as bad as advertised. Sat next to a group of guys from the Atlanta that kept calling it the disappointment bowl. And though the Packers seems somewhat better, it was really hard for me to disagree.

Rodgers still only put up 196 yards on 32 attempts... 6.125 yards per attempt, which is in Josh Allen territory for worst in the league. BUT on a positive he did take some checkdowns, made a couple of Aaron Rodgers throws.

Still a long way from good, but I'll take anything at this point.

BTW: Jones 17 carries 3 targets
Williams 4 carries 1 target

Right on 80%.... I guess they do listen to these forums.


One throw in particular - the touchdown to Cobb - was vintage Rodgers. A thing of beauty, dropped it right in the bucket. I don't know who else could have made that throw, but there's a bunch of NFL quarterbacks who couldn't have.

I'd still like to see him continue to take the checkdowns when they're there. It's just smart football.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Seeing as it was ESPN, the show most likely used their self aggrandizing and totally made up because they don't divulge the algorithm, QBR.
Those numbers would not be QBR. However ESPN calculates it, which is a black box as you say, the ranking are as follows:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

Passer rating is what is it says it is: a transparent calculation of what happens after the ball leaves the QBs hand. There's no mystery to it. Anybody can calculate it themselves by using the formula illustrated here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passer_rating

Passer rating is based on only 4 stats: completion percentage, yards per attempt, TDs as a percentage of passes, and INTs as a percentage of passes.

ESPN's QBR attempts to include all aspects of QB performance: http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/...-calculated-we-explain-our-quarterback-rating

Among other things, it purports to:
  • for example, weight a 5 yard completion on 3rd. and 5 more than a 5 yarder on 3rd. and 8
  • factor in a QBs runs
  • factor in sacks, QB fumbles, pre-snap penalties committed and pre-snap penalties drawn
  • scores each QB play on a scale of 1-100
  • adjusts for level of competition
  • "allocates credit to the quarterback and his teammate to produce a clearer measure of quarterback efficiency"
That last point in particular is quite problematic. It is included in the formulation of Expected Points Added (EPA) on each play which is at the core of QBR. Teammate performance is statistically determined to allocate success and blame. This is illustrated as follows:

"That means on completed passes, the EPA is divided among the quarterback, his receivers and the offensive line based on how far the ball travels in the air, what percentage of the yards were gained after the catch (compared to how many yards after catch are expected) and whether the quarterback was under pressure. This division of credit is based on statistical analysis of thousands upon thousands of NFL plays.... The details of every play (air yards, drops, pressures, etc.) are charted by a team of trained analysts in the ESPN Stats & Information Group. Every play of every game is tracked by at least two different analysts to provide the most accurate representation of how each play occurred."

So, to take one example, what are the expected yards after catch for a receiver on a particular play in particular situation? For this to make any sense, somewhere along the line that receiver's historical record must be measured against some league average in similar situations based on that "analysis of thousands upon thousands of NFL plays" to have a baseline for that player on that play.

Lets say Adams baseline score on short slants or 5 yard in the air while needing another 3 yards for a first down or a TD is a high score of 80 relative to a league average, lets say 65. So, when Rodgers completes such a pass to Adams, more credit is weighted to Adams than Rodgers. If the ball goes incomplete, Rodgers gets docked more than Adams.

I see a circularity in this logic. What if Adams was playing with a lesser QB who does not successfully recognize when those slants will achieve the first down or TD vs. when the defense is such to argue against the throw. Then Adams is not an elite short slant receiver with, lets say, a 65 score. Then when such a throw is successful the QB gets more credit than Rodgers would and Adams is docked more if it goes incomplete. Further, even if the QB is not under pressure, is the line blocking in such a way as to provide the passing lane needed to successfully make that throw?

I'll add something of a digression related to this last point. Why does a QB pass up an open receiver? Sometimes he doesn't have the passing lane to do it or his vision is obscured. He might have to move off his spot to find that lane and when he gets there the opportunity has closed. It's why, all other things being equal, the NFL prefers those 6'5" QBs with high release points to see and throw over the line. That's "all things being equal". There's a whole lot of other things that go into a successful QB.
 
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HardRightEdge

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By the way, David Garrard's 82.5 ESPN QBR in 2007 is the 9th. highest ever recorded since this methodology was created through the 2017 season.

QBR formulas are like opinions, as*holes, and Wins Over Replacement (WOR) formulas in baseball. Everybody has their own.

pro-football-reference has Garrard down for 83.4 that season. footballoutsiders has their own formula which might show something different.

So, if you don't like Rodgers QBR (or passer rating for that matter) this season, perhaps you should take a clue from the Garrard outlier season which was never close to being matched before or after. Consider whether one-off seasons are unrelated to the ascendance or decline of the one player or the other. Consider other factors.
 

rmontro

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Wilson's QB rating is 100.1 not including yesterday's game which might have knocked it down a tenth. Rodgers is at 103.4 through all 14 games.

To illustrate, go here:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsRu00.htm or here http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/14881/russell-wilson
Yeah, I saw those pages. I just didn't know if those numbers were up to date, or if the ESPN numbers were correct. Obviously they were not. No real surprise. I've seen them put up erroneous numbers before.

Nothing against Russell Wilson, but if he did have the top passer rating, doesn't it seem a lot of odd that he would have the best every? Russell Wilson?
I mean he's good, but best ever type good? He has been staying at the #2 spot behind Rodgers for awhile now.

By the way, Cowherd said something I liked today:
He said Aaron Rodgers had to watch Mitchell Trubisky throw up 110 yards, 1 TD, 3 INT, a passer rating of 33.3 and WIN. Because he's surrounded by a good roster. Compare that to what Rodgers has to do every week. Think he could put up numbers like that and win?
 

Mondio

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If and When Trubisky becomes a competent QB and they have to pay him a real QB salary, do you think he’ll be surrounded by the same talent?
 

LambeauLombardi

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I'll just be happy if Philbin gives Aaron Jones 80% of the RB touches....HOW FREAKING HARD IS THIS MM?!?!

Also, the Falcons are awful on defense (much worse than the Cardinals) so it wouldn't be shocking to see a big improvement from nothing more than the Falcons not having a great corner like Peterson and a great pass rusher like Chandler Jones.

It's one thing that I prefer AJones to get more carries because he's better. I also am not a fan of Jamal Williams shaking his *** in the end zone after he scores.
 

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