2023 - LaFleur's failings

[PikeBadger]

Not adequately using the running game and his 2 best and generally most consistent players(Jones, Dillon) as a focal point to keep Love in decent down and distance situations.

Yesterday against Steelers- Snap counts - Doubs - 82%
Watson - 75%
Reed - 51%
Musgrave - 74%
Kraft - 51%
Jones - 56%
Dillon - 50%

So we apparently are unable to bring in Nijman, Rhyan or Caleb Jones to provide a stronger front on select plays? Deguara played 5 snaps. He is less adequate as a blocker than Musgrave or Kraft? Less than 5 snaps had both Dillon and Jones on the field at the same time. Both can catch, both can block, both can run.
I think LaFleur is totally missing the opportunity to feature his best players. I also don't understand the unwillingness to use QB bootleg rpo with a quick QB.

 

[Kahless]

A few observations/opinions:

1) Lafleur's play designs on both runs and passes are frequently bizarre. O-Line rarely drive blocks to get any line surge. That said, when he tries trap-like plays, there are frequently so many unblocked defenders they break up the play for a loss. His red zone pass patterns rely too much on throwing an absolutely perfect pass to a WR running out of room to the end-zone sideline or deep corner. All the DB has to do is watch for the WR to turn back toward the line of scrimmage and he turns as well, but he then has total positioning to tip or intercept the ball. Also I hate Lafleur's near lateral pass plays +1/-1 yard off the line that are just asking for a loss or an interception TD return.
2) Whether Love is "THE" guy remains an open question, and he frequently throws too much into double, triple coverage, rather than look for the open man. But he has had enough bright spots I think for him to try to continue to develop next season. After all, he sat on the bench for so long, it's like he's starting over. Going to take time to get rhythm.
3) This team so BADLY needs to rebuild the O-line and get fresh running backs that they can't afford to use a Round 1 pick on another QB that will be another 2-3 year wild card. They need OL and RB critically. Even if you give up on Love now and draft a QB high up, who is an immediate star, he will still have to deal with the RB, OL problem, likely dooming him to poor performance anyway.
4) Joe Barry should be fired immediately. One of the worst defensive minds I have ever seen. The guy appears absolutely clueless with his widely spread 2-3 man fronts and ultra-soft coverage schemes. No wonder teams run at will against him, and convert so many third and longs.

 

[El Guapo]

Agreed. I think that the whole world rightly thought that the Packers would be a run-dominant team in 2023. There is no reason for LaFleur to do otherwise. I think that he's tried to get too cute instead of just committing to supporting his first year starter at QB.

 

[Schultz]

Could it be they have not been run dominant because of how important they feel it is to evaluate Love in the MLF offense?

 

[Poppa San]

Could it be they have not been run dominant because of how important they feel it is to evaluate Love in the MLF offense?

Could it be they are not run dominant because 1] their probowl caliber RB has been in the training room half the season AND 2] their OL run blocks worth Shit AND 3] their rookie TEs haven't beefed up or learned to be run blockers yet?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

MLF is a terrific offensive coach. He frequently schemes plays that get guys open, those players just need to complete the play which they've had issues with this year (at QB/WR/TE the most). MLF's biggest flaw is his insistence on keeping Joe Barry around.

As for having Musgrave/Kraft out there rather than Deguara, what exactly makes anyone think that Deguara is a good player at this point in his career? He might, MIGHT, be a better run blocker but the threat of Musgrave going deep forces the defense to put a linebacker on him while a DE can come into the game to cover the "threat" of Deguara in the passing game (I'll take an extra LB over an extra DE in the running game). As for Dillon and Jones being on the field at the same time, it's a fun trick formation but as we've all seen this seaosn, Dillon is not that good; I'd much rather put Musgrave/Kraft/Reed on the field with Jones rather than Dillon.

 

[OldSchool101]

Not adequately using the running game and his 2 best and generally most consistent players(Jones, Dillon) as a focal point to keep Love in decent down and distance situations.

Yesterday against Steelers- Snap counts - Doubs - 82%
Watson - 75%
Reed - 51%
Musgrave - 74%
Kraft - 51%
Jones - 56%
Dillon - 50%

So we apparently are unable to bring in Nijman, Rhyan or Caleb Jones to provide a stronger front on select plays? Deguara played 5 snaps. He is less adequate as a blocker than Musgrave or Kraft? Less than 5 snaps had both Dillon and Jones on the field at the same time. Both can catch, both can block, both can run.
I think LaFleur is totally missing the opportunity to feature his best players. I also don't understand the unwillingness to use QB bootleg rpo with a quick QB.

I agree and so much so I almost wonder if it’s intentional.

I don’t want to start a conspiracy theory. Yet this year is clearly lost from a SB perspective, which is our primary goal.
I guess if I’m putting my GM hat on let’s face it, do you want your veteran players going into a contract year being holding back youth? Probably not. The easy way to accomplish this under the radar is give your bulk of snaps to your inexperienced players. I’ve come to the conclusion that there has been a recent change to stress our inexperience to prepare them for next season and to allow adequate tape to assess them.

 

[PikeBadger]

I agree and so much so I almost wonder if it’s intentional.

I don’t want to start a conspiracy theory. Yet this year is clearly lost from a SB perspective, which is our primary goal.
I guess if I’m putting my GM hat on let’s face it, do you want your veteran players going into a contract year being holding back youth? Probably not. The easy way to accomplish this under the radar is give your bulk of snaps to your inexperienced players. I’ve come to the conclusion that there has been a recent change to stress your inexperience to prepare them for next season and to allow adequate tape to assess them. Feed your veterans only enough to thwart any speculation of them being ignored.

For me once Rasul got traded tells me a story. It’s a calculated philosophy change and it’s likely been discussed/whispered behind closed doors to those at the top to a select few that are privy.
But it’s probably what I’d do also, so I can’t say much about it. Some might perceive it as tanking as you’ve alluded to and I’m in agreement it’s normally dangerous in the short term. However in team building, some inside will see it as a form of “medium term” winning strategy and the needs of the many (future seasons) outweigh needs of the few (current season only)

I can't even imagine Ted Thompson having that type of backroom conversation.

 

[BrokenArrow]

As for Dillon and Jones being on the field at the same time, it's a fun trick formation but as we've all seen this seaosn, Dillon is not that good

Jones hasn't been any better. In fact, I'm not sure he's been as good.

 

[Schultz]

Could it be they are not run dominant because 1] their probowl caliber RB has been in the training room half the season AND 2] their OL run blocks worth Shit AND 3] their rookie TEs haven't beefed up or learned to be run blockers yet?

I will actually answer your question instead of answering your question with a different question. Yes it could be for all 3 of the reasons you mentioned.

 

[Schultz]

Jones hasn't been any better. In fact, I'm not sure he's been as good.

IMO Jones still is and has been better. Unfortunately this season that has not been a very high bar. IMO. Of course I also respect your opinion. I just do not share it.

 

[BrokenArrow]

IMO Jones still is and has been better. Unfortunately this season that has not been a very high bar. IMO. Of course I also respect your opinion. I just do not share it.

Here's why I say that. Dillon is repeatedly asked to run right into the teeth of the defense between the tackles. You don't usually expect as many yards on those plays as you do with the outside "run to daylight" type of runs Jones gets. Yet both of them are averaging 3.7 per carry. So where's the big difference?

 

[milani]

Not adequately using the running game and his 2 best and generally most consistent players(Jones, Dillon) as a focal point to keep Love in decent down and distance situations.

Yesterday against Steelers- Snap counts - Doubs - 82%
Watson - 75%
Reed - 51%
Musgrave - 74%
Kraft - 51%
Jones - 56%
Dillon - 50%

So we apparently are unable to bring in Nijman, Rhyan or Caleb Jones to provide a stronger front on select plays? Deguara played 5 snaps. He is less adequate as a blocker than Musgrave or Kraft? Less than 5 snaps had both Dillon and Jones on the field at the same time. Both can catch, both can block, both can run.
I think LaFleur is totally missing the opportunity to feature his best players. I also don't understand the unwillingness to use QB bootleg rpo with a quick QB.

I am not sure that MLF is confident in rotating his players successfully for specific situations. But that is exactly what good teams do. I know our O line is not known for run blocking but power packages are common in the NFL. Mike Sherman used to bring in T Kevin Barry as an extra lineman in his power running packages. And when Ahman Green set a Packer record with a 99 yard TD run in 2003 it was exactly that formation that was used to break him loose.

 

[gopkrs]

Man, I don't remember Ahman Green doing that. And of course, it would have tied a record.

 

[Schultz]

Here's why I say that. Dillon is repeatedly asked to run right into the teeth of the defense between the tackles. You don't usually expect as many yards on those plays as you do with the outside "run to daylight" type of runs Jones gets. Yet both of them are averaging 3.7 per carry. So where's the big difference?

IMO there is a reason for that. They believe that Dillon is better between the tackles and Jones is the better make a cut and make guys miss outside runner. I truly believe AJ is not 100%. Riddle me this, how in the heck does Dillon have a long carry of 40 and Jones of 11?

 

[Firethorn1001]

Man, I don't remember Ahman Green doing that. And of course, it would have tied a record.

I was at the game. It was actually 101

 

[BrokenArrow]

IMO there is a reason for that. They believe that Dillon is better between the tackles and Jones is the better make a cut and make guys miss outside runner. I truly believe AJ is not 100%. Riddle me this, how in the heck does Dillon have a long carry of 40 and Jones of 11?

Jones's performance has taken a hit this year for sure. Maybe he isn't 100% as you say. Or maybe for 29 year-old Jones, this is his new 100%.

 

[milani]

Man, I don't remember Ahman Green doing that. And of course, it would have tied a record.

It was the final game of the 2003 season against Denver. And it looked like we would not get in the postseason. Moments after that run Josh McCown launched a desperation last second pass for Arizona to Nate Poole in the corner of the end zone and on the final play of the game knocked the Vikings out of the postseason and gave us the division.

 

[milani]

I was at the game. It was actually 101

It was from the line of scrimmage and technically you cannot run 101 yards or you would be in the end zone. Although that is where he got the handoff.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Packers have the youngest and cheapest offense in the league and fans out here expecting the coach to make them elite...there is literally no coach in the NFL doing much with an offense comprised of these players.

 

[gopkrs]

It was the final game of the 2003 season against Denver. And it looked like we would not get in the postseason. Moments after that run Josh McCown launched a desperation last second pass for Arizona to Nate Poole in the corner of the end zone and on the final play of the game knocked the Vikings out of the postseason and gave us the division.

I guess that's why I don't remember the run. I was driving somewhere in New Mexico and could only get updates sporadically. I remember that we got into the playoffs because of that game.

 

[El Guapo]

IMO Jones still is and has been better. Unfortunately this season that has not been a very high bar. IMO. Of course I also respect your opinion. I just do not share it.

This might be the most pleasant response, ever posted on the internet.

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[El Guapo]

Mike Sherman used to bring in T Kevin Barry as an extra lineman in his power running packages. And when Ahman Green set a Packer record with a 99 yard TD run in 2003 it was exactly that formation that was used to break him loose.

I haven't looked this up yet, but didn't they call that the U-Bacon package?
....................................scours the internet..................................
It looks like they originally called it the U Bacon package in 2003, and by 2005 they were calling it the U-71 package with Kevin Barry.

More on the U Bacon package: http://monsterden.net/madden/ubacon

 

[El Guapo]

Could it be they have not been run dominant because of how important they feel it is to evaluate Love in the MLF offense?

I don't think that is the case. Just because you run the ball more, doesn't mean that Love isn't throwing the ball and that you can't evaluate him. All it means is that you are making the job easier for him by forcing the defense to commit to stopping the run.

 

[Magooch]

Packers have the youngest and cheapest offense in the league and fans out here expecting the coach to make them elite...there is literally no coach in the NFL doing much with an offense comprised of these players.

I've heard this said a lot (which is understandable, cuz it is true and all, so..) but it's got me thinking.

I've seen a lot of people saying things like "We need to be patient with our young WRs because Love is still inexperienced and getting a feel for things and trying to find his rhythm and learning" and so on. Fair enough. And I've also heard a lot of people saying the same from the opposite side: "We need to be patient with Love, his receivers are inexperienced and young and still learning and getting a feel for things," which is also true enough.

But I guess what it has me asking lately is like...how often does that actually WORK for both sides? I'm sure we can think of plenty of examples of an offense with a young QB but established/experienced and/or elite talent at the skill positions that helps the QB develop and ends up being successful. And I'm sure we can think of plenty of examples of offenses with established/experience/elite QBs who are given young/inexperienced skill players but the QB is able to elevate them to play at a higher level.

But both at the same time? How many examples can we come up with where a team takes a young and very inexperienced QB and surrounds them with younger and LESS experienced passcatchers and both parts (QB/receivers) are able to adequately develop and grow at the same time to eventually form a legitimate "contending" offense?

I don't know. Just seems like there are many ready to throw Love under the bus, there are many ready to throw our receivers under the bus, but there are very few willing to stop and say "Perhaps the way this roster is assembled does not do anything to help out Love OR our WRs". Short of adding some experienced/established players and/or elite talent on one side of that "equation" it's hard for me to see that as much of a recipe for success.