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Week 1 thoughts...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Vikeman, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. Formo

    Formo Cheesehead

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    I just realized yesterday at work..

    Week 1 is a Monday Night Game. The biggest and most heated NFL rivalry. Favre's jersey retirement.

    And I'll be working the whole game. =(

    2nd shift sucks.
     
  2. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    Yeah, I'd never wish for a player to get injured. As someone who has been injured, it's not something I'd wish on anyone. I'm assuming that was taken out of context and not meant as a "yeah! AP is injured!"

    AP's one of my favorite players to watch and I was really bummed when he went down, and was especially bummed when it was one of our guys who hit him. I was relieved 2 weeks later when he came back and was just as good as before the injury.
     
  3. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    :lol: at the Wrecks Grossman statement. Agreed on all counts here.

    It's funny how a lot of us agree that the Vikings and Packers have the most potential, da Bears are done, and the Lions are kind of a sad tale.
     
  4. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    The difference between the Packers and the Vikings is that the Vikings don't actually "build" teams but buys them by importing a significant number of new guys every year. Team chemistry this does not create or depth does it make.

    This is the method the press, however, LOVES and all the guru's grasp onto this because they recognize the names that justify immediate improvement in teams. Of course, if this actually worked that great, Washington would have won the last five SB's.

    GB creeps along building from within and drafting good although really not spectacular names which of course totally befuddles the experts who didn't think the Pack did enough in the off-season and completely botched the draft so obviously we will suck.

    I have said this before about the NFL. If your not deep your dead. The teams standing in the end have guys behind guys that can come in and play.
    When it comes to who's standing at the end of sixteen games we have the players top to bottom to be there and from that perspective I see no other team in the North close.
    The opener will be a fun and interesting game. Much more so then where the division will stand by week thirteen or fourteen.
     
  5. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    I think this also has to do with a problem with our culture. Everyone wants the quick fix. That's why you see so many get rich quick schemes (of which almost 0% work). That's why you see all these absurd diets, and diet pills that actually cause death (and eventually get pulled off the market). They want the end results without doing the work.

    Funny is it applies to building a team as well. Build is slowly, methodically, and consistently, and you will be rewarded with success. Take puzzle pieces from different teams and expecting instant results often ends up with locker room cancers, Titanic-sized egos, bruised feelings, and bad team chemistry.

    I don't mean to slam the Vikings at all, but this post is more a praise for the Packers. We've rebuilt slowly, methodically, and consistently over the last three years and the results we're now seeing. '07 was a lot of Favre magic. '08, we'll see a team that is so solid we should be a perennial playoff team. We already saw signs of it in '07.
     
  6. NodakPaul

    NodakPaul Cheesehead

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    I call BS. Since Childress took over Minnesota has only added young players through FA and the draft. The majority of the starters on the Vikings were drafted by the Vikings.

    However, there is nothing wrong with grabbing a big name or two when they are young players in the prime of their career (Hutch, Allen) or players who were back ups but Childress sees something special in (Taylor).

    I like Childress and Speilman's approach to team building. Young players who can put together a winning team that lasts, not just a flash in the pan. However, building takes time, hence the two year slump. This is the year when it all comes together though...
     
  7. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    yeah good luck with that.
     
  8. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    The bold part is actually describing the Vikings pretty well. They really have been one of the biggest spenders in free agency.

    Here are the names I came up with....

    Tony Richardson (gone now I believe), Steven Hutchinson, Darren Sharper, Pat Williams, Ben Leber, Dwight Smith, Bobby Wade, Antonie Winfield, and you can throw in Chester Taylor.

    All those guys were free agent pick ups by the Vikings.

    Throw in this years acquisitions of Benard Berrien, Madieu Williams, and Jared Allen.

    That's 12 guys.

    That's a lot of free agent pick ups and a lot of money spent during free agency for a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 3 years I think.

    I think the Vikings have clearly built their team using free agency.
     
  9. NodakPaul

    NodakPaul Cheesehead

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    Look at our roster. On offense, 13/22 were drafted by the Vikes. 6 of the remaining 9 were brought in after playing four years or less. On Defense, 12/20 were drafted by the Vikings. 2 were brought in with 4 years or less playing time.

    The Vikings, especially since Childress took over, have taken a team building approach, bringing in young players who can contribute for a long time. Are there some exceptions, such as Pat Williams (who was brought in under Tice BTW0? Yes. But to say that the Vikings have clearly built their team through free agency is wrong.
     
  10. Tiger

    Tiger Cheesehead

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    Troy Williamson
     
  11. NodakPaul

    NodakPaul Cheesehead

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    ???

    I am not sure where you were going with that...
     
  12. Tiger

    Tiger Cheesehead

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    Thats the joke and punchline in one. Whats to get?? :D
     
  13. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    This is more for comparison. Not saying one or the other is right.

    Since TT came in, we've only had 4 real FA pickups - Charles Woodson, Ryan Pickett, and Brandon Chillar. I won't say the fourth one's name because it hurts when I think about it. You Packer fans know who I'm talking about. I'm currently seeing a therapist to block his name from my memory, kind of like how A**** Ca**** is almost entirely blocked from my memory.

    Sure, we've had other FAs, but if I'm not mistaken, they're more like undrafted people. Atari Bigby is one of them. How he didn't get drafted is beyond me.
     
  14. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    I guess I'm confused. Didn't THIS years draft for the Vikings under Childress look like this:

    Round 1- No Pick
    Round 3- No Pick
    Round 4- No Pick
    Round 7- No Pick

    How can anyone say they are building thru the draft since Childress has been there?

    TT drafts in double digits. I think it's fairly safe to say the two teams are doing this differently.
     
  15. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    Marquand Manuel! Oops, sorry.

    It will be weird to not have Favre playing, but I think by the end of the preseason, we will sort of be ready for it, especially if the team is looking good. The Vikes are okay, but for awhile now I've been taking an "I'll believe it when I see it" approach with them. They are weak not only at QB but at WR as well. A good passing game is needed to put a lot of points on the board consistently, and the Vikings haven't had one in awhile--nor do I anticipate them having one this year. So I still see them as about a .500 team.

    They almost always play the Packers tough, though, so it should be a heck of a game.
     
  16. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    Thanks Greg. That therapy was for naught. :hammer:

    The Vikings have playmakers that can be deadly at any time. Their OL is sick and so is their DL. They can on any given Sunday beat anyone in the NFL. They have too many holes though to do it consistently. So I second the "I believe it when I see it" sentiment. Not ruling it out, of course. But I'll believe it when I see it.

    I think Warhawk said what I was going to say when it comes through "build through draft." Apparently, that approach was not used in '08.
     
  17. Formo

    Formo Cheesehead

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    Yup. And this was the first year in how long that the Vikings didn't have a 1st round pick?

    The Red McCombs era consistently had the biggest cap room yearly. Wilf is trying to utilize that money.. Because obviously, during the Red era, building through the draft didn't help.
     
  18. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    Well, first of all teams seldom give up their first round pick unless trading down to ADD MORE picks so trying to go back and see when they did that last doesn't have anything to do with what they are doing now.
    It sounds to me from your last comment that you agree the Vikes are not, in fact, building the team thru the draft which was my point.

    We won thirteen games last year and before I put the Vikes up there with us they will have to prove it. A few years ago they brought in like six defensive guys and were going to win everything on the planet. It didn't happen then and so I am not about to say they belong up there with us now.
    The two big names brought in happened to play on teams we faced last year (Chicago twice & KC once) and neither did much of anything against our guys (you can check it yourself) so why all of a sudden should they be in our face this year?
    If I were Minny and going out spending all that cash I would have started by spending it on a QB instead of paying the guy they have like the lowest salary for a starting QB in the league. Looks kind of *** backwards to me when that guy is more important than ANYBODY else they could bring in.
     
  19. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    I think this is the point that is trying to be illustrated... only a handful of your everyday starters were draft picks of recent drafts.. don't see any immediate starters or large contributors from this years class either.. although I like the Johnson pick alot.

    I will say this, the past two drafts look a heck of a lot better than the previous ones.

    2008 - Minnesota Vikings……………

    Rd …Sel # …Player …Position …School…
    2…43…Tyrell Johnson …FS …Arkansas State…
    5…137…John David Booty …QB …USC…
    5…152…Letroy Guion …DT …Florida State…
    6…187…John Sullivan …C …Notre Dame…
    6…193…Jaymar Johnson …WR …Jackson State…

    2007 - Minnesota Vikings……………

    Rd …Sel # …Player …Position …School…
    1…7…Adrian Peterson …RB …Oklahoma…Pro Bowl Player
    2…44…Sidney Rice …WR …South Carolina…Full time player
    3…72…Marcus McCauley …CB …Fresno State…2nd String
    4…102…Brian Robison …DE …Texas…Part Time Player..
    5…146…Aundrae Allison …WR …East Carolina…Backup
    6…176…Rufus Alexander …LB …Oklahoma…Backup
    7…217…Tyler Thigpen …QB …Coastal Carolina…Not on team
    7…233…Chandler Williams …WR …Florida International…Not on team


    2006 - Minnesota Vikings……………

    Rd …Sel # …Player …Position …School…
    1…17…Chad Greenway …LB …Iowa…Injuries
    2…48…Cedric Griffin …CB …Texas…Full time player
    2…51…Ryan Cook …C …New Mexico…Starting RT - struggling
    2…64…Tarvaris Jackson …QB …Alabama State…Starting QB - Struggling to date
    4…127…Ray Edwards …DE …Purdue…Full time player
    5…149…Greg Blue …DB …Georgia…Not on team

    2005 - Minnesota Vikings……………

    Rd …Sel # …Player …Position …School…
    1…7…Troy Williamson …WR …South Carolina…Not on team
    1…18…Erasmus James …DE …Wisconsin…Not on team

    2…49…Marcus Johnson …G …Mississippi…Backup
    3…80…Dustin Fox …DB …Ohio State…Not on team
    4…112…Ciatrick Fason …RB …Florida…Not on team
    6…191…C.J. Mosley …DT …Missouri…Not on team
    7…219…Adrian Ward …-- …Texas-El Paso…Not on team


    2004 - Minnesota Vikings……………

    Rd …Sel # …Player …Position …School…
    1…20…Kenechi Udeze …DE …USC…Part Time Player..
    2…48…Dontarrious Thomas …OLB …Auburn…Not on team
    3…88…Darrion Scott …DE …Ohio State…Not on team
    4…115…Nat Dorsey …T …Georgia Tech…Not on team
    4…119…Mewelde Moore …RB …Tulane…Not on team
    5…155…Rod Davis …LB …Southern Mississippi…Not on team
    6…184…Deandre' Eiland …DB …South Carolina…Not on team

    7…220…Jeff Dugan …TE …Maryland…On Roster
     
  20. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    The list is undeniable.

    The Vikings are not a team built through the draft and you even aren't saying it. Your saying they bring in younger players. Yes they do, through free agency.

    Do they have players that they drafted start? Of course they do. Every team does, otherwise the draft wouldn't be what it is today but for the most part Minnesota has gone for the quick fix.

    Look at the defense alone.

    DE's Edwards and Allen
    DT Williams and Williams
    LB Leber, Henderson, and Greenway
    CB Winfield and Griffin
    S Williams and Sharper

    6 of the 11 projected starters are free agent pick ups.

    It's hard to project offensive starters because a lot of teams use two backs and 2 tight ends and 3 or 4 receivers and looking at the Vikings they've brought in their fair share of free agents on that side of the ball as well.

    Bobby Wade, Benard Berrien, Chester Taylor, Artis Hicks, Steve Hutchinson, Visanthe Shiancoe, and Thomas Tapeh are all pick ups I believe via free agency.

    That's a lot of players on both sides of the ball.

    I'm not saying the Vikings don't draft well as 2007 class would easily suggest they do draft well. I'm saying they've built their team or key components of their team relying more on free agency.

    We'll see if it works for them. The 94 49ers basically bought a Super Bowl so it's not impossible but then again they had Steve Young and Jerry Rice.
     
  21. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Cheesehead

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    I don't wish to fault your efforts here, but there is an inherent tendency that newer draftees are still on the team compared to older draftees, because team management are still gauging whether the player is a good fit or not and to give him a chance to shine.

    My bet is, come 2012, only 1, maybe 2 from the '08 class will remain.
     
  22. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    Ok.
    Between 2004 and 2007 the Vikings drafted 29 players. 14 48% are still on the team 15 52% are gone.

    Between 2004 and 2007 the Packers drafted 40 players 22 55% are still with the team 18 45% are gone.

    Now lets look at some of those no longer on the Vikings.
    Greg Blue. Cut because we were deep at his postion. Odd man out. Currently with Detroit.
    Tyler Thigpen. MN tried to put him on the practice squad and KC snatched him.
    Mel. Moore. Left as a FA. Signed with Pittsburgh.
    D. Thomas. Left as a FA signed with SF.

    The Packers have no players from the 2004 draft on the team and less then half the players from 2005. So, I wonder, if the Packers didn't have 40 draft picks where would they be?

    And which Johnson pick, Tyrell or Jaymar?
     
  23. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    Scott Wells off the top of my head.

    Kinda hard to take any of your statistics seriously now. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. You were on fiiiiire.

    But they do, and it's by design, so I don't get that sentence.





    PS - my avatar is laughing at you.
     
  24. Formo

    Formo Cheesehead

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    Yes, I was agreeing with you. But they only have been building via free agency seriously for the past 3 years.

    My point was Red McCombs did almost NOTHING to bring free agents to Minny. And the Vikes still sucked them years (with the exception of the Culpepper almost-MVP year). It takes more than just building via draft. Just like it takes more than just building via free agency.

    Well, I disagree with your QB comment, but otherwise, you are spot on. I'm not asking or demanding you Pack fans to take notice of the Vikes. That'll happen when/if the Vikings start beating really good teams, including the Packers. I know they have to earn it.
     
  25. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Mike Sherman ran that entire 2004 draft top to bottom so I don't know how much that draft can even be factored in.

    As Trom said it did produce Scott Wells but it also produced Corey Williams who were both starters last season but I don't think anyone can deny that the draft was a failure. You can argue that it's the reason why Sherman got demoted and then eventually fired a year later.

    2005 Draft will look pretty good if Aaron Rodgers ends up being the Packers franchise QB.

    2006 is a gold mine right now with Hawk, Colledge, Spitz, and Jolley all penciled in as starters.

    2007 and 2008 are to be determine right now although I see potentially 2 starters from 07 and that doesn't include James Jones and Brandon Jackson who might play key roles on this team for years to come.

    Like Trom said the Packers draft more by design. Green Bay's philosophy is to trade down and pick up more players and develop from within. As raptorman stated in his post, Green Bay has 8 more draft picks on their roster than Minnesota does. That's a huge number when you think about it. That's like having another draft on your roster.

    That's in part of drafting well and the philosophy of stockpiling on picks. If that's the best negative that someone can come up with about the Packers drafts then things will probably be pretty good for the Packers in the post Favre era.
     

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