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Tolzien named starter vs Giants

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Zeck180, Nov 10, 2013.

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  1. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Wallace is out there. OH NO! HE LOST US THE GAME. GET MATT FLYNN BACK TO GREEN BAY NOW!!

    Tolzien is out there. OH NO! HE DIDN'T LOSE US THE GAME. SOMEONE ELSE DID. HE'S GOING TO START? YES! MATT WHO?

    It's unfair to pin a loss on Wallace but not on Tolzein. Dunno why he gets all the breaks when he lost the game by twice the number of points Wallace did.

    Maybe Tolzien is the better QB between the two.
    But again, stats don't mean squat when the team loses.
    Only one that matters is that now elusive "W."
    Only way one can be better than the other is the one who wins the game.
    Did Wallace win? No.
    Tolzein? No.
    So in my book, it's impossible to say which one is better at this time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  2. robertk328

    robertk328 Cheesehead

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    Because you can look at Wallace' body of work and see that the odds aren't in your favor. With the other two you have a limited selection of success (Flynn) or nothing (Tolzien) that would lead you to believe, other than lack of experience, that he can't get it done. Is it fair to Wallace? No. And I was excited to see what he would do after a week of practice. Now I'm excited to see what Tolzien can do because of what we have seen. Maybe I am fickle but these are waters we haven't been in for quite some time.
     
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  3. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Your argument is flawed

    Flynn was tossed in the Detroit game (rodgers concussion) has a week to prep and almost beats NE

    Then this is where opponents say Wallace never amounted to anything..

    This is where we point out Flynn was in MM system how long?? and when it really matter he couldnt do anything..He needed the week of prep work to play well

    Same can be said about Wallace--- he looked like crap that 1st week and just needed a week of prep...We went 5 for 5...Tossed better balls then the prev outing, yet EVERYONE knows he wold have sucked

    Scott maybe just be the better of the two players..But we wont know
     
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  4. DevilDon

    DevilDon Inclement Weather Fan

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    All of that is true LTF but everyone who watched the game saw the confidence that Scotty showed. He stood tall in the pocket and went through some progressions.
    I believe in Seneca and I'm not arguing he might have won the game. They game planned for him at QB but it's all moot as he's injured. If you asked me even before the game who I'd rather keep if only allowed one I'd have picked Scotty. Younger, bigger, stronger. I think people are generally fired up about Scotty because he showed poise, leadership and some arm strength. Funny though, his post game presser he sure seemed nervous to be in front of the cameras. One week of prep and I beeeeeeleeeeeeeve!
     
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  5. GoPGo

    GoPGo Cheesehead

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    Context matters.
     
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  6. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    And let's put the cards on the table and be honest. Tolzien is white.
    That could have something to do with everyone liking him as well as maybe wanting Flynn back.
    Not overtly but subconsciously.
     
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  7. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    It does if it gets us to the Super Bowl.
     
  8. GoPGo

    GoPGo Cheesehead

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    Its certainly possible say which had the better debut.
     
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  9. robertk328

    robertk328 Cheesehead

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    You didn't read my entire post (you quoted the whole thing but doesn't seem like you read it). The part you missed:

    "Is it fair to Wallace? No. And I was excited to see what he would do after a week of practice. Now I'm excited to see what Tolzien can do because of what we have seen. Maybe I am fickle but these are waters we haven't been in for quite some time."

    I didn't think he would have sucked - I thought for sure he'd have a better game than he did the week before after getting reps in practice. That said, his career stats aren't there to inspire much confidence. It's unfair to him to do that, as I also said. The stats lie a bit though, as he had to "make do" with a team that was far less talented than the current Packers. I feel bad for the guy - he came out with every intention to win and help the team, but is now on season-ending IR. He won't be back next year either, I assume. Who knows if anyone picks him up again?

    With Tolzien, the stats aren't there either, BUT what he showed, after coming off the practice squad, against Philly, with a week of prep (like Wallace had!), gives people more confidence because we don't know how much baggage he's carrying into the game (in the form of 'out of context' career stats).

    Everyone's jumping up and down about Matt Flynn, too -- I'm more enthusiastic about Tolzien. So who knows!
     
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  10. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Well I for one don't see color and I hope we have progressed far enough in this world to judge people on their performance rather than ethnicity.
     
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  11. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    This is like looking at two different boards that are painted with the exact same black paint with the same number of layers and arguing over which one is darker.
    Tolzien vs Wallace is irrelevant.
    All I really care about is whoever it is who finally wins us a damn game.
    Right now both are losers.
     
  12. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    I agree and I don't care about the color of the quarterbacks or any other player either.
    I just don't get it and think it's unfair with all this criticism thrown at Wallace instead of Tolzien when, looking at it in certain ways, Wallace had a better game. Just one INT vs 2, and losing by just 7 points instead of 14. And his passes, were, IMO, just as good or as accurate as Tolzein.
    So I'm just throwing out another possibility of why Tolzien gets a free pass and Wallace doesn't.
    I'm not calling anyone a racist but sometimes we do have a knee jerk reaction based on ones skin tone based on how we were brought up as well as brainwashing by the media.
     
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  13. GoPGo

    GoPGo Cheesehead

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    That's simply not how talent is evaluated. If wins and losses were all that mattered in evaluating quarterbacks, teams wouldn't be paying scouts $100,000+ to make those judgments.

    Just because you're unable to distinguish any difference between the two doesn't means none of us can either. To many of us the difference is stark. I'm sorry you're unable to see that.
     
  14. profile_removed

    profile_removed Cheesehead

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    And yet, if I mention those things when Aaron loses yet another close game I get my *** torched by the whole board. Let's show a little consistency here. Tolzien played good, he'll be better this week.
     
  15. GoPGo

    GoPGo Cheesehead

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    I'm appalled that you would insinuate racism of anyone who favors Tolzien over Wallace. One of my favorite non-Packer QBs all time is Warren Moon. The fact is Wallace looked like a deer in headlights while Tolzien looked confident and in control of the offense. Tolzien has FAR better arm strength. He had a higher completion percentage. He had a higher yards/attempt as well as yards/completion. Oh and there's also that TD pass that he threw as well as the other two that were not TDs because Jones didn't know where the sideline was (again) and because Nelson for some reason failed to make a catch he usually comes up with. He only had one TD, but he should have had 3 of them and no, I'm not even considering the one he missed to Nelson. If those guys make those catches we're in a pretty good position to win the game.



    Wallace, OTOH, never even got us close to the end zone. Eddie Lacy is the only reason we were in that game, not Wallace. Yes, Wallace threw only one interception instead of two, but he also had half as many attempts, so that's a wash. And the margin of loss is irrelevant. Tolzien put more points on the board than Wallace did. So again if you think both QBs were equally poor simply because they both lost, well...you're simply not looking very closely.

    Perhaps you'll entertain a hypothetical for me. If Wallace was healthy and ready to go against the Giants, who would you start based on the last two games? To me and many others it's a no-brainer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
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  16. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    You REALLY think that????? wow
     
  17. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    So, if Tolzien really lights it up, what do you all think we should do with Rodgers? Unfortunately we are past the trade deadline. Do we hold on to him so we can trade him next year? Cut him now and save money?

    I think we should hold onto Rodgers and eat the salary. We could probably get 3 firsts and 3 2nd round picks for him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  18. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Just throwing it out there as a possibility based on the frustration of all the love for Tolzein but none for Wallace.
    I just don't get it.
    Nobody wanted to give Wallace a chance after the Bears game.
    Yet everyone wants to give Tolzien a chance after the Eagles game and both of them lost both those games.
     
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  19. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    One can be uncomfortable or have bad feelings towards others of different races but still not be a racist.
    And it could be on a subconscious level.
    With that, I am not accusing anyone here of racism.

    You probably are right for those reasons you pointed out why fans like Tolzien better than Wallace.
    But we will never know if I am right because no one would have the guts that they like the way Tolzien looks over Wallace.

    I feel bad for Wallace. What happened to him was unfair. He hardly got a chance to show us what he was capable of with a week's worth of preparation.

    Anyway, I'm done with this subject of race and quarterbacks.
    We'll wait and see what Tolzien does.
    Frankly, I don't expect much from one who throws two tds and loses the game twice from what the other QB did.
    I hope he surprises me. I really do.
     
  20. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    You keep mentioning the Detroit game as Flynn's poor game but that game for Wallace (with Flynn's stat line) would have been pretty close to Wallace's career stats. Flynn, at that point, did not have an established history. Hence, there was room to hope he could play better. With Wallace, you know what you're going to get. Coaching wasn't a problem for Wallace when he was young since Holmgren has a pretty good history of developing quarterbacks.

    That being said, this is why I'm much happier with Tolzien. We don't know what he can do and so his upside could be substantial, which is what this team needs with the way it's constructed. Tolzien should have been the backup from the start. Having Wallace at QB just says we won't lose by a lot but we probably won't win. With Tolzien, you may get blownout but you at least have the chance of finding out that you have a good QB.
     
  21. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Oh.
    I didn't know that it was stats and not the numbers of wins that gets us into the playoffs.
    My bad.
     
  22. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Flynn sucked with out prep work.. Hence bad Detroit game...had a week to prepare and flourished..
    Flynn did nothing with out MM...he was cut from three teams and one team's gm was a Ted man...

    Wallace went 5 for 5 when he started after MM had a solid week getting him ready..

    I get you say Wallace for the career didnt do much.. I say under MM he could have been better..as MM has shown he can get a qb ready.

    that is how I feel... Ok???

    With that said Scott did much better job than Wallace did when just tossed in..

    My stance is the same now with Scott..will have a week preparing..
     
  23. GoPGo

    GoPGo Cheesehead

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    Of course it's not. But obviously when you are choosing between two quarterbacks who lost games you have to look to other criteria to determine who the better option is. Every objective criteria points to Tolzien.

    By the way, since you're so fond of the race card, racism is a double-edged sword. Wallace shouldn't get undue criticism based on his race, but neither should he receive undue consideration based on it.

    Again, I ask, FF. If both players were healthy, which would you start against the Giants based on what you saw over the last two games?
     
  24. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Yes you have been consistent regarding both. :tup: I just want to win damnit and I don't care if Larry, Moe or Curly play QB.
     
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  25. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Since this is based on what I saw which was 1 vs 2 INTs and losing by 7 vs 14 points, Seneca Wallace.
    I would still like to see what he can do with a week's worth of preparation.
    Maybe, just maybe he would have been better than Tolzien and had won the game.
    We were robbed not getting the chance to see that possibility.
    We will probably never know which really sucks.

    Time to move on and see what the All-American-Boy-Success-Story can do for us.
    Probably another reason for all the bromance for Tolzien.
    Grew up as a Packers fan.
    Played for the biggest college football team in Wisconsin.
    Then plays for the biggest or most popular team in all of Wisconsin.
    How can anyone not love this?
    This is a Hollywood story.
    Now all he needs to do is win the game and then win the girl.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
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