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Time for Bates

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by dxbfan, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Harris and Woodson have been fairly good. Unless you want to be more specific and say they need a nickel back and a dime back. Or draft future Corners. Then I agree.

    I agree they need a DE and another DT. Also agree on the safeties although Nick Collins is only in his 2nd year and is probably being affected by Manuel mostly.

    As for Jim Bates being bad?

    He's a great coordinator. Maybe not a great Head Coach. Never given the chance but as a coordinator he's never failed to put a team in the top 10 in yards allowed and in Miami his Defenses were some of the elite in the game and produced several Pro Bowlers such as Jason Taylor, Patrick Surtain, Sam Madison, and Zach Thomas.

    As for your reasoning on him being bad it has no details or facts backing it up. He was offered several jobs this off season as a Defensive Coordinator but wanted to go to Dallas and that would've been the only job he would of taken. Dallas didn't offer him the job so he decided to take the year off. Green Bay is still paying him as Bates and the Packers had to reach on an out of court settlement and there is said to of been some harsh feeling on both sides. The Packers were hoping he would of taken a job but he didn't and now they have to pay him for nothing.
     
  2. Blackjackking

    Blackjackking Cheesehead

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    Al Harris and Charles Woodson aren’t even close to being one of the best CB's duos in the league. The defensive line is very average at best, Packers safeties are weak, and LB’s are average at best. Add up everything I said and you have yourself a bad defense, add up everything you said and you have yourself a good defense. Packers defense is ranked 29th,survey say's, bad defense! End of discussion!
     
  3. Yared-Yam

    Yared-Yam Cheesehead

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    Alright you win. :rollseyes:
     
  4. Cdnfavrefan

    Cdnfavrefan Cheesehead

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    Porky, nice info on Donetell I never knew about the play changed. I actually wanted him back especially since I believe he had Atlanta as one of the top D's the next year
     
  5. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    I agree with you. I just don't know how much better it would be with Bates. Maybe the Defense is playing better but the offense could be dragging along behind us.

    Bates and Iowa Coach Kirk Ferientz were the top 2 on my list. Honestly McCarthy was the last guy I thought they would hire. Bates and we can all agree was probably more qualified for the canidates on our list. T.T. just felt he could work better with McCarthy and wanted a young coach to grow with a young team which is understandable.
     
  6. Yared-Yam

    Yared-Yam Cheesehead

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    Porky you're cramping my style..
     
  7. Cdnfavrefan

    Cdnfavrefan Cheesehead

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    Just watching NFL network and reailized another guy who may give credit to the argument some guys are great DC but not HC. Dick Labeau is thought of as one of the best DC with the Steelers and yet his HC days were mostly ones to forget
     
  8. Yared-Yam

    Yared-Yam Cheesehead

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    Ray Rhodes also
     
  9. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    That really was the premise on which this topic was based. Unless Favre comes back next year, K-Rob comes back raring to go, Martin recovers from injury and continues to improve, there's WR help in the draft, the O line doesnt suffer any further setbacks and the running game consistently gets back on track, its hard to imagine this offense being a top 5 offense next year.

    The defense on the other hand seems to have the talent on the roster. With effective coaching, a couple of key additions and further depth through the draft it could well become a solid defense next year.

    As we've seen with teams like the Ravens, Broncos, Bucs, Bears and Steelers you can go further with a solid defense and average to below average offense than you can with a solid offense and average to below average defense.

    Its in that light that you're probably better off playing to your strength which is defense and having someone like Bates as HC who not only has a proven record of coaching defense but being defense minded can take some of the pressure off the offense while its being rebuilt.
     
  10. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Bates probably will never come back here especially after the Packers and Bates almost went to court about a settlement on his contract. This according to Chris Havel on the radio. He said they settled out of court and now GB is still paying him.

    I don't see why we have to fire McCarthy and hire a Defensive Coach. If you bring in a good Defensive Coordinator you'll get the same results as you would hiring a Defensive guy as Head Coach. Keep in mind if you change your Head Coach you'll be changing your entire philosophy. I'm not saying I approve of McCarthy's job so far but it's to early to pull the plug in my opinion.

    I rather see McCarthy finish out his contract and if he doesn’t get the job done I want to see McCarthy and his Staff along with T.T. go and just start over with a new era.
     
  11. Packnic

    Packnic Cheesehead

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    exactly porky. it just doesnt make sense. fire current staff after one year. hire a decent defensive coordinator as your head coach. with a terrible win-loss record at every team hes been with.


    our defense looked a lot better last year... but we also only won 4 games.

    maybe his defenses look so good because they dont have a lot thrown at them. we all know the numbers of the packers defense were skewed last year because we down more often than not and a weak offense allowed the other teams to do enough just to get by. im not that impressed with bates at all.

    McCarthy and a new defensive coordinator is the only way to go. Sanders is only there to give him a shot. they thought it might be best for team consitency. It apparently is not. so we will hire a new DC and go from there.
     
  12. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    Then why didn't someone snap him up when many others without HC experience went before him? Last year was a golden opportunity for a guy perceived around the league as having HC capabilities to be given the nod. Something like nine HC positions were filled. If he's that good he wouldn't have gone 0-9.

    Heck, a few teams took others as Defensive Coordinator over Bates after all the HC jobs were filled and it was clear that was all he was going to get at that point.

    There's more to all this than we as fans know when it comes to selecting a HC. For one, we have made a 100% committment to the zone blocking scheme having hired JJ and drafting Spitz, Colledge, Moll, and, starting Wells who fits that system perfectly.

    For all we know Bates doesn't have a clue what is involved in that offense.

    I would rather see MM grab on to a guy that is experienced and established that he has enough confidence in to turn the "D" over to. An "Assistant Head Coach" type that MM can cut loose.

    This would make more sense than getting a defensive orientated HC who cannot add their expertise to what we want to get done on offense. Also, remember, MM is known for his strength in preparing QB's for the NFL.

    Can Bates or another Defensive Coach get Rodgers or another young guy prepared to play in this league?

    It's not like we won't need that type of coaching ability sooner than later.
     
  13. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    We lost half of Favre's best playing years waiting to decide if Sherman could get the job done both as GM and coach. Perhaps it is too soon to pull the plug on MM but I just hope we dont make the same mistake again.
     
  14. Anubis

    Anubis Cheesehead

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    True Bates went 3-4. However you neglected to mention the Fish were 1-8 prior to Bates taking over. I really don't see him doing any worse than McCarthy.

    GO PACK!!!

    Robert C. Hedley
     
  15. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    In seven games he won nearly as many as we did after 16 games last season. I say that's an improvement. Esppecially when you throw in the fact that he was taking over someone elses team. He didn't get a chance to pick his staff or any of that good stuff.
     
  16. Packnic

    Packnic Cheesehead

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    Zero im disappointed


    Bates is not . the answer. hes a hope. hes overrated because of one good yet highly skewed statistical season. so people wanna cling to that hope in a time of desperation. We just arent that good. its a cyclical NFL and its our time to fade back. With MM and TT we will be back sooner than later. Just take it easy.

    i cant stress enough what warhawk said (speaking of warhawk, im firmly under the belief that he and i are the only sane people on this forum) he went 0-9. 0-9 with head coaching vacancies. including one where he was a fan favorite in GB. that says a whole whole lot.

    This isnt a TT thing, its an NFL thing. Hes a Defensive coordinator. a lot more goes into being a head coach than just X's and O's.
     
  17. Mr_Bumpy

    Mr_Bumpy Cheesehead

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    Has any team ever gone with two head coaches? I would love to see Mike McCarthy as offensive head coach and Jim Bates as defensive head coach. I know I'm probably dreaming, but wouldn't that be an awesome combination? Then Jim Bates would finally get the head coaching job he wanted...
     
  18. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Packnic, I'm disappointed.

    I never said he was the answer, in fact if you read more of my near 8,000 posts you will read I believe Bates was not hired as a HC for a reason. Same reason as Fritz Shurmur. They make a great DC, but don't have the needed tools for a HC.


    My comment was supporting Bates effort as it was commendable and porky was disguarding it as it was nothing. Bates turned that team around mid season and into the right direction.
     
  19. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    I'm not playing him down. He's a great coach and does deserve a shot at being a head man somewhere but if people think Bates would of been the savior and turned this team into a playoff contender overnight then they're sadly mistaken.

    He's a great coach and the Defense would of been better but pending the coordinator on offense the team could really be struggling in that department and we could be talking about how bad our offense is and how they cost us every game instead of the Defense.
     
  20. Cdnfavrefan

    Cdnfavrefan Cheesehead

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    AS for a DC I'll defend Bates a bit. After last year the belief was that we only had the best pass D cause we were behind almost every game. So if that's the case why aren't we the #1 pass D this year. I think he's got to be given some credit after watching the secondary this year
     
  21. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    I think the valid point is we couldn't stop the run and teams could just take fewer pass attempts. I certainly don't believe we had the best pass D but I certainly think it was respectable (considering the talent) and it was because of Bates.
     
  22. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    I don't think Vince Lombardi himself could turn this team into a playoff contender overnight and that is something I think fans are forgetting or not understanding. The Packers are simply not that great of a team and its not soley the coachs fault.
     
  23. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    The defense is rated 29th because our DL is very inconsistant. If you want to throw out stats than what are Harris and Woodsons stats? Harris continues to shutdown the opposing #1 WR and teams are getting wary of going towards Woodson as he's usually right where he needs to be.

    Manuel sucks but the rest of the guys behind the DL can play. When they do get pressure on the QB our pass defense is great. The problem is we don't get consistant pressure and when that happens no pass "D" is going to look good.

    Kampman and Pickett are solid and fairly consistant but not spectacular. We need to add a couple of guys there that gives us a consistant pass rush week in and week out. We get a good game from a guy one out of every three or four. That's not going to cut it.

    To say our LB's are average and the Woodson/Harris duo isn't all that is an opinion with little basis. The 49'rs top tackler is a LB that's out this week and he leads the team with 67 tackles. Hawk has twice that.

    You certainly cannot say that's because all the other guys are so good on the 49'rs "D" cause they just are not that great. You can't ask people to run around out there all day and stay with WR's. They are going to find open areas and if the QB is left standing back there with a lane to throw it to they will find them.

    Watch tis week. Any time our DL is getting pressure the pass "D" will be there and when the QB is left standing back there with time to throw it won't.

    Like I say it starts and ends with what the DL does. To chump on Harris and Woodson is a joke. Even when we get no rush the opposing #1 can't beat Harris. He's won that battle every game for two years.
     
  24. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I am starting to think blackjack is Bates...
     
  25. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    ??? Went over my head.
     

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