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Time for Bates

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by dxbfan, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    On sheer talent alone, we're a safety and a DE away from perhaps having one of the most talented defenses in the league. If not for our dismal record, Kampman, Woodson, Hawk and perhaps Barnett would be going to the Pro Bowl this year. There are some terrific safeties that are going to be available in FA this off season and if we continue the way we are, we're going to be picking fairly high in next year's draft - great opportunity to sign a stud DE.

    On Offense the picture isnt that clear. We dont know if Favre is going to be back, we dont know if A-Rod is the QB of the future, we dont know how much Green has left in the tank and whether RB is going to be a pressing need, we know WR is an issue but we dont know in what frame of mind K-Rob is going to return from his suspension, we need to start from scratch at TE and O line could be an issue yet again if we let Clifton go.

    Where would you put your money? I say lets bring Bates in as HC, lets create one of the best defenses in the league and buy some time to address the issues on offense. Look at the Ravens, Bucs, Broncos, Steelers, Bears - all teams that are or have been contenders through defense.

    We have to live through TT's rebuild, there's no way around that but lets atleast play to our strengths and fight for some pride. Lets reestablish home field advantage and lets make it as difficult as we can for opponents to score points against us.

    The best part is that its not that difficult. Its only a matter of choice.
     
  2. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    The problem with Bates, as it was last year when we needed a new HC was that he needs an O guru to rely on for the O side of the ball.

    If Bates came in last year, I am willing to bet he would have stuck with almost all of the same personel. That means Tom Rossely as our OC.

    TT wanted change, and decided to bring in McCarthy. If he goes back to Bates, you can once again expect to see someone like a Rossely as our OC. you can expect to see most of the same O coaches as under the Sherman regime.

    TT hired McCarthy, both of whose contracts are set to expire at the end of 2008. He linked his future to the success of McCarthy. If he gets Bates now, there will be an adjustment period and basically next season will be like this one, getting used to the style of Bates and Bates learning on the job.

    Next year is a waste. TT has one final year, with all the pressure on him. Bates is tied to TT, because a new GM comes in and he will want his own coach (most likely). Players start to see a a lame situation, where basically change is inevitable. They short sell themselves, and perform less than 100%. Our next 2 seasons go to waste.

    Then we get a new regime. Spend another 3 years getting its own players and staff into place, and cutting the players that don't fit their model.

    Too much logistical problems for your approach to work dxb, IMHO. Although I do agree with you, Bates should be a big part of this team next year (TT/MM need to find a way to bring him back!).
     
  3. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    Good points AADP but do consider the following:

    I think Bates after the Miami experience is well aware of his O shortcomings. He's likely therefore to have gone after someone with strong offensive coaching credentials. Rather than Rossley, we might have ended up with Martz. I dont think thats a better option but I do think he would strongly consider retaining Jags.

    Just as TT has linked his future to MM so also has he linked his exit. Much as TT has his eyes set on the future I think we might be underestimating his discomfort at sitting next to Harlan while a home crowd of 70,000 odd dwindles to 20,000 by the middle of the fourth quarter as it did last sunday.

    While a period of adjustment is usually expected its not cast in stone. NO is a great case in point.

    TT's roster moves over the last two years be it through the draft or FA suggest a greater propensity to build around defense than to build around offense. That hasnt refelected in coaching and thats where I think TT has made a huge mistake. Here's an opportunity to correct that and I think falling ticket sales and revenue quickly overcomes logistical considerations. Add to that a further huge financial dent through the possible absence of No. 4 next year and I think you will find TT's hand being forced a lot more than it has so far.
     
  4. Packersfan43084

    Packersfan43084 Cheesehead

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    BATES IS NOT COMING BACK. Thompson hired McCarthy and will and should stick with him. The guy is in his first year as head coach, of course there will be some growing pains.

    Back to the point on Bates. Basically, Bates and McCarthy will not be able to co-exist for the betterment of the Packers. That's why he won't come back or even be offered a defensive coordinator spot.
     
  5. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    I know Jim Bates is well respected and rightfully so but he's never been a Head Coach before. Now this isn't about McCarthy so don't turn it into that. My question is What would make you think Bates can turn this team around as the Head Coach? Some guys are just cut out to be coordinators. Norv Turner for example. Personally I think Bates would be great but their is no proof that he would be a legit NFL Head Coach. I think Green Bay is better off living with McCarthy and T.T. If they fail then they leave together.
     
  6. umair

    umair Cheesehead

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    i wonder how much better or worse our d would have been if bates was still the coach for the d.


    what do you guys think?
     
  7. IronMan

    IronMan Cheesehead

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    You cant be worse than last in points allowed.
     
  8. Yared-Yam

    Yared-Yam Cheesehead

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    If Bates was still the DC our defense would be rock solid IMO.

    Look what he had to work with in '05 and we ranked 20th in points given up and 7th in yards given up.

    There's tons of talent on the defensive side and it's going to waste pretty much under Sanders.
     
  9. hoos

    hoos Cheesehead

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    Don't short sell Bates. When given the job on an interim basis in Miami, he did very well. I'd take him as HC of this team for next year without hesitating.
     
  10. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Whatever water they allow you to drink in Canada, resist! I urge you! I BEG OF YOU!



    Wait, you know what. If we would have kept Ray Rhodes he would have turned the team around too!!

    My lord the things that come into ppls heads during a losing season.

    Bates would have kept Rossley? WTF Bates is INTELLIGENT! Rossley is NOT Bates BEST FRIEND! Why in gods name would he keep him? WHY? You think a man nearly sixty years old does not have ANY connections to an offensive mind who capable of running an offense? You think the most knowledgable person he knows/knew was ROSSLEY?

    IF ... IF that is true, screw HAVING BATES AS A HC because if he can't recongized a failure OC he sure as hell wont be a good HC.


    /rant off ... i still love u! :p
     
  11. Cdnfavrefan

    Cdnfavrefan Cheesehead

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    I also believe Bates is a guy best used as a DC. He does can do great as an interm like he did with the Dolphins cause I think his biggest assest is getting guys to play even when times are tough but over the long haul I think he's great as a DC over a HC
    BTW, I hate to bring up 4th and 26 but the other day I was think actually Ed Donatell wasn't that bad of a DC using what he had but he will forever be doomed for that one play
     
  12. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    He went 3-4 with Dolphins. Not that great of a record.

    I agree I'd take him as the Head Coach but I don't think he'd be the savior of the team unless he got a good offensive coordinator to run things.
     
  13. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Double Post

    Donatell was a scapegoat. Heard on the radio from Chris Havel and Harry Sydney that Sherman actually changed the call on the field. Overruled Donatell and well the rest is history.
     
  14. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    This off season TT hoped he would have MM as HC and Bates as DC, funny how things work, had it been the other way around -Bates as HC, MM as OC, we might be seeing a very different record and very different prospects.
     
  15. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    That was in an article too from the PG. If I remeber correctly Donatell called a blitz and Sherman changed it to prevent defense.
     
  16. Packnic

    Packnic Cheesehead

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    personal i think TT decided not to go with Jim Bates... just because seriously you cant have the guy in charge of everything, with that last name. too much bad press. think about it. Master Bates comes through in the clutch. even a good headline like that sounds bad.

    but anyway. i think the Bates thing is people holding onto something that may or may not have been a truth. Bates defense was good, and it was good in Miami. (of course you HAVE to remember that neither team won a lot of games ever, obviously hes defenses werent THAT great). what makes everyone think that Bates would be a great HC?? Just because of some random, maybe glorified numbers from ONE SEASON. What makes you think your smarter than every GM in football. hes been passed up numerous times for the HC position. obviously something isnt right. not to mention he is 60 years old. he aint gettin younger

    We have Mike McCarthy as the new Head Coach. get used to it. and none of you has a legitimate reason not to like him. Hes been great in the press, said the right things, and has a pre season predicted 2-14 team with 4 wins. and 4 weeks left. If you can guarentee that Bates and all his offensive genius would have this poor team with a winning record ... ill tuck my tail.

    Basically its all just a big nasty product of a losing and rebuilding year. No one likes it, no one wants it. Everyone wants that magical head coach that wins all 16 games with mediocre talent. But its a part of the NFL and we have to go through it. Even though we are the greatest sports franchise to grace the professional sports world. Mike McCarthy hasnt done anything to deserve this hatred, and maybe he hasnt done anything to deserve praise. he does deserve time. The point is. Bates is gone. Get behind MM or get the hell out of dodge.

    (all that said... i still think we need a new DC)
     
  17. spardo62

    spardo62 Cheesehead

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    As much as some can wish and hope and dream, Bates will not be back in GB - get over it. There is also no evidence that this year would have taken on a significantly different appearance with him at the helm or returning as DC.

    That said, I agree that staff changes need to be made especially on the defensive side of the ball - especially in the defensive backfield.
     
  18. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    The evidence is the performance of the defense last year. Even if you discount the stats, the evidence is player development - Kampman emerged last year, Harris had arguably his best year last year, Collins seemed like a potential Butler in the making last year, the D line got stronger last year, and its the policy of rotation on the line that was introduced last year that has contributed to the improvement we've seen this year.

    I dont know what kind of 'evidence' you're looking for spardo, but you're obviously looking for it in the wrong place.
     
  19. GakkofNorway

    GakkofNorway Cheesehead

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    of course you can, you can allow even more points
     
  20. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    So if next pre-season this team is predicted to be 4-12 and MM has the team going 5-11 are we supposed to all stand up and celebrate? This game isnt about predictions, its about results. If predictions counted for anything we'd have won atleast 2 super bowls with Sherman. I dont mean to be contentious but its when self-conviction becomes overbearing that I cant resist.
     
  21. spardo62

    spardo62 Cheesehead

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    All is I am saying is that last year is just that - last year. Bates did do a good job with what he had to work with and whether he returned or not he would have had different personnel this year. We can assume that he would have shown better results than Sanders and company, but we will never know for sure.

    I also stick by my statement that he will not come back in any capacity as long as the current landscape remains the same in GB.
     
  22. HatestheEagles084

    HatestheEagles084 Cheesehead

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    what is jim bates even doing these days? I picture a scene like that from Major League hiring the manager and jim bates is probably working in a garage, here:

    TT: Jim, how would you like to be the defensive coordinator for the packers?????

    Jim: Hold on, I have a guy on the other line asking about white-walls
     
  23. Blackjackking

    Blackjackking Cheesehead

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    Are you crazy? The Packers need a defensive tackle, defensive end, 2 safeties 2 corners and a linebacker, minimum. Also Jim Bates is bad! I know it, people across the country knows it, and all 32 NFL teams knows it! Why doesn't Packer fans know it? He is unemployed for a reason, the reason is, he's bad! End of discussion!
     
  24. Yared-Yam

    Yared-Yam Cheesehead

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    Allow me to disagree with almost everything you said.

    Their rotation of Cole/Jenkins/Williams+Pickett is pretty solid IMO. They do need a DE(KGB I'm looking at you). They need 1 safety. We all saw how good Collins was his rookie year. I doubt he's suddenly forgot how to play safety. 2 corners? I do believe we have Al Harris and Chucky Woodson; 2 of the best corners in football. A linebacker? Why?!? We have one of the most athletic/talented LB corps in football. If there's a group that shouldn't be touched, it is the LBs

    And Bates is not bad. In Miami he never had a defense that didn't rank in the top 10. Then he came here with our crapshoot bunch of players and ranked 12th if I'm not mistaken. So, no. he's not bad.
     
  25. hoos

    hoos Cheesehead

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    Need to look at the circumstances as well. He went 3-4 with a 1-8 team and beat the eventual super bowl champion Patriots. He also lost by 3 at Denver.

    I wouldn't call him a savior either, but in my mind he was the clear choice for HC of this team in the offseason and if we were really going to take a chance on a rookie HC, he was a much better option.
     

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