The trenches

[GreenBaySlacker]

Ever since the years of Grady Jackson, Williams, Jenkins, Pickett, Jolly,Kampman. When Capers first came. We have been a weak defense. Grady doesnt come back, Williams sent out. Jolly to jail, Jenkins not re-signed, Kampman hurt and sent out......NEVER REPLACING ANY OF THEM!!! Defense doesnt work without a good front line. No matter how Capers spices it up, its still humble pie. Daniels, Boyd, are both mid-late rounders and are the best we have up front...

We drafted Sitton, Lang in 4th rounds back to back years. Then Newhouse the following. Then a couple bookend tackles and we stopped!!!! Why? Why didnt we draft a mid-round O-lineman every year since with that sucess rate??? The two bookends being hurt all the time has been our problem. That and not continuing to stack tallent when we had the chance. We get back on that trend after Rodgers gets his *** whooped a couple years. Got Bahktiari too in 4th, and Lindsley in the 5th. this year..... I mean seriously! If we dont draft a WR every year in the 2nd a O-lineman in the 4th, and a Dlineman in the 4th also. We are dumb!

We need to stack our tranches. It doesnt matter how many LBs or nickle backs we have. Rodgers makes WRs, so why have 2 at 10mil a year each? if the trenches are getting destroyed every play...It doesnt matter if you have Aaron freaking Rodgers and a slew of big targets... We get best

Enough fancy stuff. Lets fill our next couple drafts with monsters for the trenches

 

[TJV]

Enough fancy stuff. Lets fill our next couple drafts with monsters for the trenches

It’s easier said than done. Over the last 5 drafts, Thompson has selected (Round & overall pick) :

2014
3 #85 Khyri Thornton, DT
5 #161 Corey Linsley, OC
2013
1 #26 Datone Jones DE
4 #109 David Bakhtiari OT
4 #122 J.C. Tretter OT
5 #167 Josh Boyd DT
2012
2 #51 Jerel Worthy DT
4 #132 Mike Daniels DT
7 #241 Andrew Datko OT
Also signed UFDA OL Don Barclay
2011
1 #32 Derek Sherrod OT
6 #179 Caleb Schlauderaff OG
7 #233 Lawrence Guy DT.
2010
1 #23 Bryan Bulaga OT Iowa
2 #56 Mike Neal DL Purdue
5 #169 Marshall Newhouse OT
7 #230 C.J. Wilson DE

It’s not as if Thompson has ignored the trenches. He’s spent 2 first rounders on OTs – they were both supposed to be “monsters”. He’s spent 2 fourth rounders, two 5th rounders, and a 7th rounder on the OL and brought in many UDFAs, one of whom has been missed already at RT this season.

On the DL he’s spent one first rounder, 2 second rounders, 1 third rounder, 1 fourth, 1 fifth and 1 seventh rounder. Again, players like Datone, Worthy, and Neal were also supposed to be more than just contributors. The impression I get from your post is that Thompson needs to draft better. He’d probably agree. But I don't think they've ignored the lines.

 

[OCBP]

It’s easier said than done. Over the last 5 drafts, Thompson has selected (Round & overall pick) :

2014
3 #85 Khyri Thornton, DT
5 #161 Corey Linsley, OC
2013
1 #26 Datone Jones DE
4 #109 David Bakhtiari OT
4 #122 J.C. Tretter OT
5 #167 Josh Boyd DT
2012
2 #51 Jerel Worthy DT
4 #132 Mike Daniels DT
7 #241 Andrew Datko OT
Also signed UFDA OL Don Barclay
2011
1 #32 Derek Sherrod OT
6 #179 Caleb Schlauderaff OG
7 #233 Lawrence Guy DT.
2010
1 #23 Bryan Bulaga OT Iowa
2 #56 Mike Neal DL Purdue
5 #169 Marshall Newhouse OT
7 #230 C.J. Wilson DE

It’s not as if Thompson has ignored the trenches. He’s spent 2 first rounders on OTs – they were both supposed to be “monsters”. He’s spent 2 fourth rounders, two 5th rounders, and a 7th rounder on the OL and brought in many UDFAs, one of whom has been missed already at RT this season.

On the DL he’s spent one first rounder, 2 second rounders, 1 third rounder, 1 fourth, 1 fifth and 1 seventh rounder. Again, players like Datone, Worthy, and Neal were also supposed to be more than just contributors. The impression I get from your post is that Thompson needs to draft better. He’d probably agree. But I don't think they've ignored the lines.

1st and 2nd rounders all under performing.

 

[El Guapo]

Consistently throwing first round picks at a problem area is rarely the solution. Often times there are better solutions in the middle rounds. 2000 is a great example because Wolf found Clifton in the 2nd round but Tausher in the 7th. For years, the Lions kept throwing 1st round picks at the WR position - Charles Rodgers, Roy Williams, and Mike Williams all in the first round between 2003-2005 before finally landing Calvin Johnson in 2007. However, they really neglected other aspects of their team.

 

[OCBP]

Consistently throwing first round picks at a problem area is rarely the solution. Often times there are better solutions in the middle rounds. 2000 is a great example because Wolf found Clifton in the 2nd round but Tausher in the 7th. For years, the Lions kept throwing 1st round picks at the WR position - Charles Rodgers, Roy Williams, and Mike Williams all in the first round between 2003-2005 before finally landing Calvin Johnson in 2007. However, they really neglected other aspects of their team.

Not concerned how Detroit drafts. Numbers 1 and 2 need to have impact regardless of position. This is why you have the draft. Clearly Ted has had some issues. Particularly when your overlying player strategy is draft and develop. I'll say it again, without Rodgers this team is .500 at best. This year with Rodgers GB could be a .500 team.

The lack of impact players drafted in high rounds is killing GB.

 

[yooperpackfan]

It’s easier said than done. Over the last 5 drafts, Thompson has selected (Round & overall pick) :

2014
3 #85 Khyri Thornton, DT
5 #161 Corey Linsley, OC
2013
1 #26 Datone Jones DE
4 #109 David Bakhtiari OT
4 #122 J.C. Tretter OT
5 #167 Josh Boyd DT
2012
2 #51 Jerel Worthy DT
4 #132 Mike Daniels DT
7 #241 Andrew Datko OT
Also signed UFDA OL Don Barclay
2011
1 #32 Derek Sherrod OT
6 #179 Caleb Schlauderaff OG
7 #233 Lawrence Guy DT.
2010
1 #23 Bryan Bulaga OT Iowa
2 #56 Mike Neal DL Purdue
5 #169 Marshall Newhouse OT
7 #230 C.J. Wilson DE

It’s not as if Thompson has ignored the trenches. He’s spent 2 first rounders on OTs – they were both supposed to be “monsters”. He’s spent 2 fourth rounders, two 5th rounders, and a 7th rounder on the OL and brought in many UDFAs, one of whom has been missed already at RT this season.

On the DL he’s spent one first rounder, 2 second rounders, 1 third rounder, 1 fourth, 1 fifth and 1 seventh rounder. Again, players like Datone, Worthy, and Neal were also supposed to be more than just contributors. The impression I get from your post is that Thompson needs to draft better. He’d probably agree. But I don't think they've ignored the lines.

This is an excellent snapshot of how bad Ted's drafting has been.
Daniels is the only one on that list that is performing at a high level.
Boyd is probably his next best pick.
Bulaga is overrated.
The jury is still out on Datone.

 

[Carl]

Ever since the years of Grady Jackson, Williams, Jenkins, Pickett, Jolly,Kampman. When Capers first came. We have been a weak defense. Grady doesnt come back, Williams sent out. Jolly to jail, Jenkins not re-signed, Kampman hurt and sent out......NEVER REPLACING ANY OF THEM!!! Defense doesnt work without a good front line. No matter how Capers spices it up, its still humble pie. Daniels, Boyd, are both mid-late rounders and are the best we have up front...

We drafted Sitton, Lang in 4th rounds back to back years. Then Newhouse the following. Then a couple bookend tackles and we stopped!!!! Why? Why didnt we draft a mid-round O-lineman every year since with that sucess rate??? The two bookends being hurt all the time has been our problem. That and not continuing to stack tallent when we had the chance. We get back on that trend after Rodgers gets his *** whooped a couple years. Got Bahktiari too in 4th, and Lindsley in the 5th. this year..... I mean seriously! If we dont draft a WR every year in the 2nd a O-lineman in the 4th, and a Dlineman in the 4th also. We are dumb!

We need to stack our tranches. It doesnt matter how many LBs or nickle backs we have. Rodgers makes WRs, so why have 2 at 10mil a year each? if the trenches are getting destroyed every play...It doesnt matter if you have Aaron freaking Rodgers and a slew of big targets... We get best

Enough fancy stuff. Lets fill our next couple drafts with monsters for the trenches

As ThxJackVainisi pointed out, the Packers have drafted plenty of big guys. This topic is clearly based on feelings rather than evidence.

Also, if GM went into the drafts thinking "we are going to take an offensive and defensive lineman early for sure" that would mean he would be following need more much than value, instead of drafting for both.

 

[OCBP]

This is an excellent snapshot of how bad Ted's drafting has been.
Daniels is the only one on that list that is performing at a high level.
Boyd is probably his next best pick.
Bulaga is overrated.
The jury is still out on Datone.

Spot on Yooper. Data and statistics don't lie. I agree that Daniels is the only impact trench player.

 

[OCBP]

As ThxJackVainisi pointed out, the Packers have drafted plenty of big guys. This topic is clearly based on feelings rather than evidence.

Also, if GM went into the drafts thinking "we are going to take an offensive and defensive lineman early for sure" that would mean he would be following need more much than value, instead of drafting for both.

Just draft players that make an impact regardless of position.

 

[Carl]

This is an excellent snapshot of how bad Ted's drafting has been.
Daniels is the only one on that list that is performing at a high level.
Boyd is probably his next best pick.
Bulaga is overrated.
The jury is still out on Datone.

Bakthiari has outperformed the top two overall picks, both tackles, of his draft class. That's a success.

 

[OCBP]

Bakthiari has outperformed the top two overall picks, both tackles, of his draft class. That's a success.

You are entitled to your opinion. He was a life saver last year as a 4th round--not an impact LT. However, not expected to be.

My concern is rounds 1 and 2.

Hope the Pack turns the corner on Sunday.

 

[yooperpackfan]

Bakthiari has outperformed the top two overall picks, both tackles, of his draft class. That's a success.

Bakthiari is serviceable at best.
He probably wouldn't start at LT on most teams, if any.

 

[PackerDNA]

Thompson hasn't ignored the lines in the draft; he just hasn't gotten much impact at all from the picks.
I don't dare how you get them- draft, trade, UFA, whatever- this team needs better players and better depth on both lines.

 

[weeds]

Bakthiari?? Guys, I remember when Clifton moved into the starting spot at LT ... and Tausch at RT ... it was NOT pretty the first couple of years. The convo's on the Packer internet forums and the pages of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel were reflective of what is being said on this very forum. Plus, there was a guy at the Appleton Post-Crescent ... can't remember if it was a clown named Chuck Carlson or his replacement clown, Mike Woods, who came down on those two with the white-heat of a 1,000 suns ... week in and week out. Saying the exact same things regarding Favre's impending broken neck that those writer's counterparts today are saying about Rodger's jeopardized keester. The more things change, the more they stay the same, I recognize this ... point being, our guys on the outside are young and inexperienced to be sure... Bulaga not so much in "years" but, in playing time, largely due to injury ... Bakthiari ... well ... he's a new guy too. One years' experience is helpful...but...not the end all. My point is... Clifton/Tausch have suddenly been deified ... but THEY started out the very same way. Our guys will be fine once they navigate that treacherous learning curve.

Same with our rookie center. Keep in mind that the guy who was hurt, Tretter, would be essentially a rookie this year too. Regardless of who lined up at center, we were going to have a guy making his first NFL start. Don't forget that Tretter was on IR all of last season (and, again THIS season to start out ... that should be a ton of red flags as well) ... this line is going to get better as the year progresses.

Sitton should get on a radio show and tell everyone to r-e-l-a-x ....

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Bakthiari?? Guys, I remember when Clifton moved into the starting spot at LT ... and Tausch at RT ... it was NOT pretty the first couple of years. The convo's on the Packer internet forums and the pages of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel were reflective of what is being said on this very forum. Plus, there was a guy at the Appleton Post-Crescent ... can't remember if it was a clown named Chuck Carlson or his replacement clown, Mike Woods, who came down on those two with the white-heat of a 1,000 suns ... week in and week out. Saying the exact same things regarding Favre's impending broken neck that those writer's counterparts today are saying about Rodger's jeopardized keester. The more things change, the more they stay the same, I recognize this ... point being, our guys on the outside are young and inexperienced to be sure... Bulaga not so much in "years" but, in playing time, largely due to injury ... Bakthiari ... well ... he's a new guy too. One years' experience is helpful...but...not the end all. My point is... Clifton/Tausch have suddenly been deified ... but THEY started out the very same way. Our guys will be fine once they navigate that treacherous learning curve.

Same with our rookie center. Keep in mind that the guy who was hurt, Tretter, would be essentially a rookie this year too. Regardless of who lined up at center, we were going to have a guy making his first NFL start. Don't forget that Tretter was on IR all of last season (and, again THIS season to start out ... that should be a ton of red flags as well) ... this line is going to get better as the year progresses.

Sitton should get on a radio show and tell everyone to r-e-l-a-x ....

Bakhtiari is a decent pass blocker and did an admirable job filling in for Bulaga last season as a rookie. But there's no denying he has to significantly improve his run blocking.

 

[DaveRoller]

It’s easier said than done. Over the last 5 drafts, Thompson has selected (Round & overall pick) :

2014
3 #85 Khyri Thornton, DT
5 #161 Corey Linsley, OC
2013
1 #26 Datone Jones DE
4 #109 David Bakhtiari OT
4 #122 J.C. Tretter OT
5 #167 Josh Boyd DT
2012
2 #51 Jerel Worthy DT
4 #132 Mike Daniels DT
7 #241 Andrew Datko OT
Also signed UFDA OL Don Barclay
2011
1 #32 Derek Sherrod OT
6 #179 Caleb Schlauderaff OG
7 #233 Lawrence Guy DT.
2010
1 #23 Bryan Bulaga OT Iowa
2 #56 Mike Neal DL Purdue
5 #169 Marshall Newhouse OT
7 #230 C.J. Wilson DE

It’s not as if Thompson has ignored the trenches. He’s spent 2 first rounders on OTs – they were both supposed to be “monsters”. He’s spent 2 fourth rounders, two 5th rounders, and a 7th rounder on the OL and brought in many UDFAs, one of whom has been missed already at RT this season.

On the DL he’s spent one first rounder, 2 second rounders, 1 third rounder, 1 fourth, 1 fifth and 1 seventh rounder. Again, players like Datone, Worthy, and Neal were also supposed to be more than just contributors. The impression I get from your post is that Thompson needs to draft better. He’d probably agree. But I don't think they've ignored the lines.

 

[DaveRoller]

It’s easier said than done. Over the last 5 drafts, Thompson has selected (Round & overall pick) :

2014
3 #85 Khyri Thornton, DT
5 #161 Corey Linsley, OC
2013
1 #26 Datone Jones DE
4 #109 David Bakhtiari OT
4 #122 J.C. Tretter OT
5 #167 Josh Boyd DT
2012
2 #51 Jerel Worthy DT
4 #132 Mike Daniels DT
7 #241 Andrew Datko OT
Also signed UFDA OL Don Barclay
2011
1 #32 Derek Sherrod OT
6 #179 Caleb Schlauderaff OG
7 #233 Lawrence Guy DT.
2010
1 #23 Bryan Bulaga OT Iowa
2 #56 Mike Neal DL Purdue
5 #169 Marshall Newhouse OT
7 #230 C.J. Wilson DE

It’s not as if Thompson has ignored the trenches. He’s spent 2 first rounders on OTs – they were both supposed to be “monsters”. He’s spent 2 fourth rounders, two 5th rounders, and a 7th rounder on the OL and brought in many UDFAs, one of whom has been missed already at RT this season.

On the DL he’s spent one first rounder, 2 second rounders, 1 third rounder, 1 fourth, 1 fifth and 1 seventh rounder. Again, players like Datone, Worthy, and Neal were also supposed to be more than just contributors. The impression I get from your post is that Thompson needs to draft better. He’d probably agree. But I don't think they've ignored the lines.

 

[DaveRoller]

Thanks for posting all the recent draft picks along the defensive and offensive lines.

Nothing like staring at facts to drive home the point.

The Pack really is weak in the trenches and the drafts along the lines really have been inadequate for several years now.

 

[adambr2]

The '13 and '14 draft classes are still too early to evaluate. Of the 2012 draft class, Daniels is the only real hit. Casey Hayward had a fantastic rookie year but has been quiet since. Perry is a disappointment for a first rounder. Everyone else is already a bust.

2011, Cobb and House are the only good picks sprinkled among a slew of busts. And House hasn't been a fantastic pick, just decent secondary depth.

2010 has a bunch of either injury-prone, or just "okay" role players. Bulaga, Neal, Burnett, Quarless, Starks. These are okay players to have on your 53, but there's no players here you really want to build an offense or defense around.

Thompson has to draft better. Since 2010 the draft results have hurt. If you're going to use draft-and-develop as your almost sole method of building your team, you absolutely must hit better in the draft than this.

 

[adambr2]

I think you might have your expectations a bit too high. There will always be more busts than hits in the draft. In general, 1 stud like Matthews or Rodgers out of a draft makes the entire draft a success. 1 starter 1 solid contributor, and 1 depth guy is really what a team is looking for in the draft.

As to some of the other things you said, I disagree with many of the assertions. I agree that 2013 and 2014 are still too early to evaluate completely (although I'd argue that the Packers are well on their way with HHCD and Linsley already looking like pretty good starters in 2014, and Lacy and Bakhtiari looking pretty good from 2013), but 2012 is also a little early to evaluate. After this season we should know more. Hayward looks great to me, but that one is about if he can stay healthy, while Daniels and Manning are both solid contributors. Who knows about Perry, but he has flashed, but to say he is a hit or miss would be projecting.

As for 2011, the starter is Cobb, the solid contributor is House, and the depth guy is Taylor. That is your prototypical average draft that an NFL team shoots for. I wouldn't call this bad at all.

2010 is a little more iffy, but the starter would be Bulaga, solid contributors would be Burnett and Neal, and depth players would be Starks and Quarless and maybe Wilson. This one really boils down to if Bulaga can stay healthy IMO. If we let him go soon then it would be a down draft.

Overall, I think our problem is not having tons of misses but having just average drafts. I wouldn't even call them bad. It's just that for the last bunch of years we've been getting exactly what we should be getting, no more no less. We haven't had drafts like the 2009 draft where we got Raji, Matthews, Lang, and Brad Jones all in the same draft. (Btw, Brad Jones is a successful pick because he was a 7th rounder.) In 2005 , we had an amazing draft with Rodgers, Collins, and some other contributors. Either one of those guys would make an entire draft successful, and we got both in one draft plus change! Even in 2006, we got Hawk, Colledge (and if I remember right we got a comp pick for Colledge), Jennings, Spitz, and Jolly.

Really, what we need is for TT to have one of those drafts where he doesn't just get what he's supposed to, but gets a little extra. Having those drafts where you just barely get what you need year in and year out just slowly takes its toll, especially when injuries come and ruin the career for some guys. I don't see that great draft being from 2014, but I think 2014 will turn out to be above average. I think 2013 will be more on the average side, but not bad. 2012 does have that chance to develop into a great draft if Perry works out, Hayward gets/stays healthy, then there is Daniels, and maybe Manning steps up. The 2012 draft has some real potential to be great.

I agree to some extent. I wouldn't call them bad drafts, but my argument would be that if you're counting on the draft to fill all your holes, you need to do better. Otherwise, you had better be willing to use free agency from time to time. UDFA guys are certainly a big credit to the GM, but the only big hit there over the year is Shields. Guys like Zombo, Moses, So'Oto have been mostly flashes in the pan.

Seems that overall we have been more successful drafting offense than defense in the TT era.

Finally when you said "Daniels and Manning are both solid contributors. Who knows about Perry, but he has flashed," I am trying to figure out who you meant because I can't possibly think you are referring to Terrell Manning. Manning made our roster only the first year and did nothing his rookie season. Then he was cut before his second season and has been floating around various rosters and practice squads since.

 

[Carl]

I agree to some extent. I wouldn't call them bad drafts, but my argument would be that if you're counting on the draft to fill all your holes, you need to do better. Otherwise, you had better be willing to use free agency from time to time. UDFA guys are certainly a big credit to the GM, but the only big hit there over the year is Shields. Guys like Zombo, Moses, So'Oto have been mostly flashes in the pan.

Seems that overall we have been more successful drafting offense than defense in the TT era.

Finally when you said "Daniels and Manning are both solid contributors. Who knows about Perry, but he has flashed," I am trying to figure out who you meant because I can't possibly think you are referring to Terrell Manning. Manning made our roster only the first year and did nothing his rookie season. Then he was cut before his second season and has been floating around various rosters and practice squads since.

Williams and Barclay have also been solid UDFAs.

 

[adambr2]

Williams and Barclay have also been solid UDFAs.

Forgot about Barclay, thanks. Williams yeah, but he wasn't our UDFA. He came from the Texans. Still credit for identifying him after the Texans released him, but that follows along the same lines with any other released free agent who broke out.

 

[adambr2]

Manning is starting for us right now, and is completely out playing Brad Jones. Brad Jones was paid starter money. This defense has been completely different ever since Lattimore entered the field over Jones. I'm not calling him a solid contributor because of the past, I'm calling him a solid contributor quality due to what he is doing now. In fact, it might be selling him short as he could end up being a good starter, but right now I think it's perfectly fair to call him a solid contributor.

Calling Jamari Lattimore, a UDFA in 2011, a solid contributor, is fair. Calling Terrell Manning, our 5th round pick in 2012 a solid contributor, is not.

 

[brandon2348]

Oh man, you're right. For some reason Manning just clicked in my brain as Lattimore. lol Nevermind then about Manning. The 2012 draft is still too early to evaluate IMO, especially because of Perry, but a Hayward, Daniels, Perry draft still seems solid and not a bad draft, which I know you agree that these drafts aren't bad.

So with all of these average drafts, it does take it's toll, but it also shows that there haven't been bad years really. And that means there is plenty of talent on this team, so this idea that there is not enough talent for this defense to be good is a faulty one IMO.

Either way I would like them to start fresh and get a new D coordinator and while I believe the talent level is good at some positions I believe it is not there at others. You can't really think we are strong enough at ILB? Interior D-line is becoming a huge question as well. Guion or Boyd don't look to be the answer thus far. Burnett may be talented but he lacks something.

More then enough quality talent on offense. No question there.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Im concerned about our trenches. Consider this. Sitton/Lang out pricing, and under performing themselves out of GB next year. Us faced with over paying Bahk/Linsley the next year, just to salvage what we are invested into... We need to draft some replacments and upgrades if possible NOW!!! Before Rodgers has a Joe Theisman situation come about in this coming few years.

As for the defense....... Invest in some bowling ball type Dlinemen. I like the shorter quick guys who weigh over 300 as rookies. It wouldnt hurt my feelings AT ALL to draft a new center piece, if we do in fact let Raji walk...

If it was me... I would get Raji back. AND draft another 300-330# stud in the first round. Actually have enough big guys to play 3 Dlinemen the majority of the time...

I see GB playing a reaction type of scheme. We get smoked one season, and thompson get ready to handle it. We get destroyed through the air 3-4 years ago, we get a new, better tackling, better intercepting secondary... Do we have a great young secondary. YES! Do we have outstanding OLBs? YES! thats great. You can see where thompson puts value inour scheme.

I prefer the , "make them play our game" type of approach. Go offensive on defense. Get guys up front who do not JUST get caught up in the wash every play. We need push and destruction up front. 2 Dlinemen wont get that. Neither will an extra safety... We need 3 beasts and a rotation of beasts... Then the OLBs can play, instead of always ZONEing out. With 3 destructive guys getting push up front, our two OLBs will run free. Our ILBs will not be facing 320 pound guards. And our secondary will feast on ducks, as the passes get knocked up, and the QB is getting hit or running for his life... MAKE them play our game...

What are you going to do? Ignore the fact there is a dlineman or OLB in your back field every play??? And when I say our secondary will feast on QBs under pressure. I mean it.