Free Agent WRs (and TEs) in 2023 Discussion...

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you need to spend more first and second round draft capital on your defense than any other team in the NFL so that the DC can <maybe> field a top-10 defense, then the defensive coordinator sucks.

Well, either that or your scouting department needs to be overhauled.
 

Pkrjones

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you need to spend more first and second round draft capital on your defense than any other team in the NFL so that the DC can <maybe> field a top-10 defense, then the defensive coordinator sucks.
Supposedly Leslie Frazier spent a couple of days with the Packers, recently. On a mini tour of teams trying to get back into coaching. Probably seeing if he needs to "start" as a DC or if a team will take him on as Assistant HC or "Consultant".
 
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Supposedly Leslie Frazier spent a couple of days with the Packers, recently. On a mini tour of teams trying to get back into coaching. Probably seeing if he needs to "start" as a DC or if a team will take him on as Assistant HC or "Consultant".

Frazier did an awesome job as the Bills' defensive coordinator over the past four years. I would definitely consider him an upgrade over Barry but unfortunately it seems we're stuck with him for at least another season.
 

thequick12

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Yeah im not sure what mlfs affinity for barry is...in my opinion he's been given enough chances
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Yeah im not sure what mlfs affinity for barry is...in my opinion he's been given enough chances
I think he saw just how long the "Fire Capers" thread is and he is trying to establish a new Packer Forum Record with the "Fire Barry" thread. :whistling:

For those keeping score. The Fire Capers thread made it to 130 pages, but for some reason was shut down. The Fire Barry thread is currently at 27.
 
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The same component of flexibility in the Fangio structure makes that Defense very dynamic can also make it appear volatile. I still think our DC cant just employ the Fangio concepts generically. A really good DC has to recognize his opponents strengths (or weaknesses) and make game to game adjustments and even in game adjustments (micro) and enhancements to the scheme. Imo Barry is relatively good in the Macro sense of understanding or recognizing this scheme, but not yet fully realized the micro aspect. I say yet because even the West Coast Offense wasn’t originally successful under Walsh the first few years until it was employed and adapted and massaged. It took 2-3 years to fire on all cylinders for many teams employing it, but it pays off huge once it’s operating smoothly.
There’s similarly a component of patience (tweaking) involved and had we similarly given up inside 2 seasons we’d not know Joe Montana in the same light. I’m not a friend of Joe Barry nor do I pretend to know his full capability. However Matt sees something in him as far as unrealized potential. If we support Matt, then we can at least take some solace in knowing he might see potential in Barry that we don’t.

Barry will run out of excuses fast this season unless he markedly improves. This is essentially his contract season if you will. I’m sort of in the corner where I don’t love Joe Barry as a D.C.
That said, I’m also not fully convinced there is anyone better for the job in the super short term. Thus I’m holding my breath that we see a slightly improved Run Defense, QB pressure rate or turnover ratio or combination thereof. 2023 is likely a down season Offensively and really the ideal season to give Barry his last look to see if he can get the most out of this grouping.
 
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Mondio

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This time of year be thankful that’s there’s any discussion whatsoever about any topic. ;)
very true. Until the fluff pieces out of training camp hit us, there isn't really anything new to talk about. We'll have a lot new to talk about this year, but at this point I don't find much point in it as it's all just one huge gigantic guess. even more so than the rest of what we talk about.

Once they start actually practicing and playing with all these new guys we'll have something new to discuss. Until then? The oldies but goodies are going to keep most everyone's attention or this place would die.
 
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very true. Until the fluff pieces out of training camp hit us, there isn't really anything new to talk about. We'll have a lot new to talk about this year, but at this point I don't find much point in it as it's all just one huge gigantic guess. even more so than the rest of what we talk about.

Once they start actually practicing and playing with all these new guys we'll have something new to discuss. Until then? The oldies but goodies are going to keep most everyone's attention or this place would die.
Yes. I suppose We should seriously consider reopening the “Fire Capers” thread. :whistling:
 

Sunshinepacker

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Yes. I suppose We should seriously consider reopening the “Fire Capers” thread. :whistling:

Capers actually coached elite defenses at times though. Barry, at best, is the worst of Capers. We can start a new thread called, "I miss Capers!" because honestly, if you gave Capers a top-5 CB and a top-10 pass rusher, and more first and second round pick defensive starters than any other team in the NFL, I would at least trust him to field a good defense. The only thing I trust Barry to do is to cost MLF and Gute their jobs.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Capers actually coached elite defenses at times though. Barry, at best, is the worst of Capers. We can start a new thread called, "I miss Capers!" because honestly, if you gave Capers a top-5 CB and a top-10 pass rusher, and more first and second round pick defensive starters than any other team in the NFL, I would at least trust him to field a good defense. The only thing I trust Barry to do is to cost MLF and Gute their jobs.
While I agree with your base premise of "Capers is a better DC than Barry", I don't agree with the idea that Capers wasn't given talent to work with. I actually think by 2018, that was why Capers lost his job as the Packers DC. TT had pumped a ton of draft resources into the defense and Capers didn't seem to be able to do a whole lot with it.

2009: BJ Raji and Clay Matthews, both 1st rounders.
2010: Mike Neal (2nd Rd.)
2012: Nick Perry (1st Rd.), Jerel Worthy (2nd) Casey Hayward (2nd)
2013: Datone Jones (1st Rd.)
2014: Ha Ha Dix (1st Rd.)
2015: Damarious Randall (1st) and Quinton Rollins (2nd)
2016: Kenny Clarke (1st)
2017: Kevin King (1st) and Josh Jones (2nd)

Just typing the list out pains me, to think of all the draft Capital Teddy pumped into the defense during Capers time. Now one could also easily make an argument that it wasn't just Capers, but maybe bad scouting and GMing?
 

Mondio

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Capers actually coached elite defenses at times though. Barry, at best, is the worst of Capers. We can start a new thread called, "I miss Capers!" because honestly, if you gave Capers a top-5 CB and a top-10 pass rusher, and more first and second round pick defensive starters than any other team in the NFL, I would at least trust him to field a good defense. The only thing I trust Barry to do is to cost MLF and Gute their jobs.
Capers got some raw deals imo. Seemed every time, in the big games, he had to sift thru piles of injuries and no names to field a defense against teams vying for a Super Bowl. Tough sledding when Andy Malumba on one leg is your best available linebacker in the playoffs.

Barry on the other hand seems to do less with more. We seem to feast on lesser teams to make it at least halfway palatable.
 
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Capers actually coached elite defenses at times though. Barry, at best, is the worst of Capers. We can start a new thread called, "I miss Capers!" because honestly, if you gave Capers a top-5 CB and a top-10 pass rusher, and more first and second round pick defensive starters than any other team in the NFL, I would at least trust him to field a good defense. The only thing I trust Barry to do is to cost MLF and Gute their jobs.
Im sorry but I had to fact check this because it just didn’t sound right and actually I learned that’s not accurate. I know they both have struggled at times, but here’s the bigger picture.

Capers has been DC of 6 squads with a bottom 10 Defense (1998,2003,2005,2007,2013,2017)
6/19 bottom 10 squads. We should recall twice lately with the Packers across just 9 seasons in GB. Joe Barry has never finished bottom 10 across 8 seasons


Capers averaged DC ranking is #16.52 (19 seasons). Capers has a LAST place finish #32 (2005) and 3 bottom 5 Defenses (bottom dweller in 1998,2005,2007)
Barry averaged DC ranking is #14.51 (8 seasons) Barry’s worst finish? #20 (2018)

Barry’s avg. D in Green Bay=#15
Capers avg. D in “ “ = #15

Barry was DC for the Rams #1 Ranked D in 2020. Joe Barry has been the same or better from almost every angle.
Barry has Better ceiling ranking (#1)
Barry has a better average ranking
Barry has equal ranking in GB.
Barry has no bottom finishes
Barry rankings are stable (Capers rankings are like a Porpoise effect)
 
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milani

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Im sorry but I had to fact check this because it just didn’t sound right and actually I learned that’s not accurate. I know they both have struggled at times, but here’s the bigger picture.

Capers has been DC of 6 squads with a bottom 10 Defense (1998,2003,2005,2007,2013,2017)
6/19 bottom 10 squads. We should recall twice lately with the Packers across just 9 seasons in GB. Joe Barry has never finished bottom 10 across 8 seasons


Capers averaged DC ranking is #16.52 (19 seasons). Capers has a LAST place finish #32 (2005)
Barry averaged DC ranking is #14.51 (8 seasons) Barry’s worst finish? #20 (2018)

Barry’s avg. D in Green Bay=#15
Capers avg. D in “ “ = #15

Barry was DC for the Rams #1 Ranked D in 2020. Joe Barry has been the same or better from almost every angle.
Barry has Better ceiling ranking
Barry has a better average ranking
Barry has equal ranking in GB.
Barry has no bottom finishes
Barry rankings are stable (Capers rankings are like a Porpoise effect)
I believe the highlight of Capers career was as a head coach propelling the Carolina Panthers to the NFC Championship game of the 1996 season in only their 2nd season. Unfortunately, he faced the Packers at Lambeau. He did this with a young Kerry Collins at QB and with a pretty good defense.
 

Sunshinepacker

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While I agree with your base premise of "Capers is a better DC than Barry", I don't agree with the idea that Capers wasn't given talent to work with. I actually think by 2018, that was why Capers lost his job as the Packers DC. TT had pumped a ton of draft resources into the defense and Capers didn't seem to be able to do a whole lot with it.

2009: BJ Raji and Clay Matthews, both 1st rounders.
2010: Mike Neal (2nd Rd.)
2012: Nick Perry (1st Rd.), Jerel Worthy (2nd) Casey Hayward (2nd)
2013: Datone Jones (1st Rd.)
2014: Ha Ha Dix (1st Rd.)
2015: Damarious Randall (1st) and Quinton Rollins (2nd)
2016: Kenny Clarke (1st)
2017: Kevin King (1st) and Josh Jones (2nd)

Just typing the list out pains me, to think of all the draft Capital Teddy pumped into the defense during Capers time. Now one could also easily make an argument that it wasn't just Capers, but maybe bad scouting and GMing?

I didn't mean to imply that Capers never had talent...just that he didn't field a defense with more first and second round picks than any other team in the NFL like Barry has. It was a comment on the wealth that Barry continues to bury in the manure of his coaching acumen.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Im sorry but I had to fact check this because it just didn’t sound right and actually I learned that’s not accurate. I know they both have struggled at times, but here’s the bigger picture.

Capers has been DC of 6 squads with a bottom 10 Defense (1998,2003,2005,2007,2013,2017)
6/19 bottom 10 squads. We should recall twice lately with the Packers across just 9 seasons in GB. Joe Barry has never finished bottom 10 across 8 seasons


Capers averaged DC ranking is #16.52 (19 seasons). Capers has a LAST place finish #32 (2005) and 3 bottom 5 Defenses (bottom dweller in 1998,2005,2007)
Barry averaged DC ranking is #14.51 (8 seasons) Barry’s worst finish? #20 (2018)

Barry’s avg. D in Green Bay=#15
Capers avg. D in “ “ = #15

Barry was DC for the Rams #1 Ranked D in 2020. Joe Barry has been the same or better from almost every angle.
Barry has Better ceiling ranking (#1)
Barry has a better average ranking
Barry has equal ranking in GB.
Barry has no bottom finishes
Barry rankings are stable (Capers rankings are like a Porpoise effect)

Barry was never the DC for the Rams, he was the linebackers coach, Brandon Staley was the DC for that #1 year you speak of. Packers had the second best scoring defense in the NFL in 2010, seventh best in 2009, and 11th in 2012 (note, Capers also had some bad years but at least he had a few good years)...all better marks than Barry has achieved in Green Bay. Barry's years as DC have been pretty routinely, and accurately, cited as awful prior to being hired by Green Bay and he's continued that proud tradition for the Green and Gold since his hiring here.
 
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Barry was never the DC for the Rams, he was the linebackers coach, Brandon Staley was the DC for that #1 year you speak of. Packers had the second best scoring defense in the NFL in 2010, seventh best in 2009, and 11th in 2012 (note, Capers also had some bad years but at least he had a few good years)...all better marks than Barry has achieved in Green Bay. Barry's years as DC have been pretty routinely, and accurately, cited as awful prior to being hired by Green Bay and he's continued that proud tradition for the Green and Gold since his hiring here.
But He’s been here 2 seasons?? How do you compare 9 seasons to 2?? That doesn’t even make sense
Barry and Capers are currently identical in overall ranking #15.
If you were going to compare you’d have to consider what each inherited. Capers inherited a pretty darn good D unit in 2009, AJ Hawk, Clay Mathews, Charles Woodson, Nick Collins, Aaron Kampman, Nick Barnette, Ryan Pickett? Heck. I could’ve ranked a top 10 without knowing what the hell I’m doing. I’d just hire good assistance and head to Maui Hawaii. I’ll be back to sit in the cozy booth on game day with my fake wig.
I’d like to see a little more consistency from Dom than 2 years success with a largely inherited D. He went got 2 years of that and then spiraled out of control finishing his tenure in GB: 24th,13th,12th,21st,26th

As far as Day1 selections. We lost our best Edge1 last season (Gary) early on and you could feel it pretty good. In 2021 We also lost our Edge1 in Z.Smith and also CB1 J’aire Alexander if I recall? So As far as all this talk about Barry not succeeding with all these Day 1 starters. When has Joe Barry had 8 Day 1 starters playing simultaneously?? (The latest argument)
I’ll answer that for you. Never and thus any such argument is totally inadmissible imo. Barry gets blamed for stuff that hasn’t even happened. Nearly every other team in the league has had comparable HEALTHY talent across the 2021-2022 seasons. Had Joe Barry inherited that 2009 squad I’m totally convinced we’d see similarly effective results.
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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Barry was never the DC for the Rams, he was the linebackers coach, Brandon Staley was the DC for that #1 year you speak of. Packers had the second best scoring defense in the NFL in 2010, seventh best in 2009, and 11th in 2012 (note, Capers also had some bad years but at least he had a few good years)...all better marks than Barry has achieved in Green Bay. Barry's years as DC have been pretty routinely, and accurately, cited as awful prior to being hired by Green Bay and he's continued that proud tradition for the Green and Gold since his hiring here.
We can only hope that Barry pulls a "reverse Capers", has a few bad years and then a lot of good years. I don't know anyone that was happy with the job that Capers did in his final years in Green Bay and yes that too, was with quite a bit of high draft capital. But to your point, beyond draft capital, Gute has also invested quite a bit in signing free agents, as well as doling out a few big 2nd contracts (Clark and Jaire), so yes, he is definitely underachieving in my eyes.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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As far as Day1 selections. We lost our best pass rusher last season (Gary) early on and you could feel it pretty good.
I think losing Campbell for a number of games and then him playing hurt the rest of the season, definitely hurt the defense. As did some other injuries, but that still isn't a good enough excuse for Barry, again, IMO.

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I think losing Campbell for a number of games and then him playing hurt the rest of the season, definitely hurt the defense. As did some other injuries, but that still isn't a good enough excuse for Barry, again, IMO.

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Listen. I don’t pretend to say we’ve got an elite DC. But I also think we should give him his chance to prove himself and 2 years with an slightly above average talented D (without Gary) and he got slightly above average results (13th)
Now 2023 is going to be an elevated expectation. We should have Rashan back and maybe Stokes and a couple of good 2nd year players in Walker and Wyatt and then add Lukas Van Ness. That’s a grouping you just have to perform. If he can’t do it I’ll be the first one to tie him to the ball of my truck and feather and tar him and take him around the block or take by Sunshine’s house and honk. (j/k)
 

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