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Should Pat Lee have been penalized and/or ejected?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Forget Favre, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    All the talk on Dom-A-Lom-A-Ding-Dong Duh stomping on a defenseless Packer player after shoving his head forcefully onto the turf getting all the hoopla, Pat Lee the Packer who got previously ejected is mostly being forgotten about.
    It seems to me that Lee was justified in defending himself agains the thuggery and dirty play by, not one, but two Lions players who are manhandling, holding and mugging him.
    I don't get it how there were no officials who didn't see that and didn't throw a flag.
    I don't think the penalty and ejection of Lee was justified.
    He had better not get a fine and if he does he should contest it.
    What do you think?

     
  2. Loran

    Loran Cheesehead

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    I thought the ejection was too much.
     
  3. Bensalama21

    Bensalama21 Ben

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    Even a couple ESPN anaylists said that he shouldn't have been ejected and that Detroit should have been flagged for double teaming him way after the play was over.
     
  4. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    I think the ejection was too much, and the play should have been off-setting penalties on both sides. He did take a swing, but he was also getting mugged the whole way down. Refs are supposed to see the whole play develop before issuing an ejection. If they had seen this whole series of events, I doubt they even throw a flag.
     
  5. neilfii

    neilfii Hall of Fame Fan

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    The ejection was clearly wrong according to NFL rules which do not mandate an ejection in such circumstances.

    Section 2 of Rule 12 reads:
    STRIKING, KICKING, OR KNEEING OPPONENT

    Article 1 All players are prohibited from:

    (a) striking with the fists;

    (b) kicking or kneeing; or

    (c) striking, swinging, or clubbing to the head, neck, or face with the heel, back, or side of the hand, wrist, arm, elbow, or clasped hands. See 12-2-3.

    (d) grabbing the inside collar of the back of the shoulder pads or jersey, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling down the runner. This does not apply to a runner who is in the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket.

    Note: It is not necessary for a player to pull the runner completely to the ground in order for the act to be illegal. If his knees are buckled by the action, it is a foul, even if the runner is not pulled completely to the ground.

    Penalty: For fouls in a, b, c, and d: Loss of 15 yards. If any of the above acts is judged by the official(s) to be flagrant, the offender may be disqualified as long as the entire action is observed by the official(s).


    For Lee to have been ejected the officials should have found evidence that Lee's actions were flagrant and then an official should have been required to have observed "the entire action" neither of which were the case with Lee's conduct.​
     
  6. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    IMO #82 of the Lions should have been flagged for holding before the whistle blew. After the whistle IMO Lee should have been flagged and ejected for (c) "striking... (#32) to the head ... with the heel ... of the hand". And #32 should have been flagged and ejected for doing the same thing to Lee.
     
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  7. PFanCan

    PFanCan That's MISTER Cheesehead, to you.

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    No doubt in my mind that there should have been a penalty against the Lions for holding during the play. No doubt.

    However, Pat Lee took a swing at a player.

    I don't care what the rules say. If I am coach and I see my player do that... I sit him down myself. I don't care what the reason was. Especially in this game when everyone knew that the only way we lose would be to lower ourselves to the bar brawl that Detroit desired.

    The whole team was told to avoid retaliation. EDS did a great job. Pat Lee did not. Take a shower Mr. Lee. He's a young guy. Hope he learns this time. Note that MM did not defend Pat's actions like Schwarz did for Suh.

    So glad McCarthy is our coach, not Schwarz.
     
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  8. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    The letter of the law says that is an ejection. 9 out of 10 times that is an offsetting persona foul with no ejection though in the eyes of the officials.
     
  9. Duvlek

    Duvlek Cheesehead

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    i agree with ya on that, that strike to the head is what got him ejected, also think whoeva #32 for da lions is should hav been eject'd too, cause he did jus as much as lee.. .im waiting to see if suh gone get suspended for kicking, had dey not been playin on turf, dietrich-smith prolly would have came out da game due to being cut by cleats.. .could of been jus as bad as what haynesworth did.. .(saved by da turf). ..
     
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  10. neilfii

    neilfii Hall of Fame Fan

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    I tend to agree with you all that MM would have been wise to sit him regardless, but I can't agree that Lee should necessarily have been ejected because 1. it is discretionary by the rule's definition, 2. I think he was defending himself, so it is not necessarily flagrant, and 3. quite clearly no ref saw "the entire action" or there would have been flags on the Lions.
    Suh's infraction clearly met each of the criteria for a disqualification. JMO
     
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  11. Texas9erFan

    Texas9erFan Cheesehead

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    Most of the time, when I see an ejection, I see two players who should be ejected. In this case, either both or neither should have been.

    It annoys me that officials often only call the penalty on the player who retaliates instead of both. Such is football... and in life.
     
  12. Powarun

    Powarun Big Bay Blues fan

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    I think them ejecting Lee was more to make a statement than what should of happened. I thought they should of ejected at least one of the Lions but the Refs didn't agree with me.
     
  13. Duvlek

    Duvlek Cheesehead

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    xactly, but that statement didnt get thru cause the lions players wasnt ejected, which prolly made suh think he'd get away with that kick. ..
     
  14. Future

    Future He did WHAT?

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    I had no problem with Lee being ejected. He lost his cool and "punched" an opposing player. When your spot on the team is far from guaranteed, as is the case with Lee, you can't afford to make these stupid mistakes.
     
  15. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    In that Suh dirty thread a Lions fan said our players werent getting penalized..I pointed out this to him he has not replied
     
  16. neilfii

    neilfii Hall of Fame Fan

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    What in the world does one's "spot on the team" have to do with anything? I didn't go back and check, but I am assuming that you posted that CWood should have been ejected from the Saints game earlier this year when he punched David Thomas or since his spot on the team is secure was his punch okay?
    Clearly every punch is not an immediate or a mandatory disqualification (if it were most games would have disqualified players) -- that's precisely what the rule says. It should be flagrant, and the ref must observe the entire action.

    That being said, I must say that I do not condone what Lee did and I think he should never have put himself in a position where his conduct could be questioned.
    I too think that the refs were making a statement and were trying to make sure that things did not get out of hand. For that I commend them.
     
  17. Future

    Future He did WHAT?

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    I just mean that, for a guy who is fairly replaceable, you can't afford to do things like that. Woodson should have been ejected for punching Thomas.
     
  18. Pat4DaPack

    Pat4DaPack Cheesehead

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    Just a penalty imo.
     
  19. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    He was ejected as he should have been.
     
  20. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    He had three guys holding the **** out of him well after the play, I would have been pissed off too. Not sure if it was the right call to eject him. 15 yard penalty I think would have been sufficient.
     
  21. PackersDraft

    PackersDraft Draftnik

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    Let. Them. Play.
     
  22. PackwillBEback

    PackwillBEback Cheesehead

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    I don't mean this as an insult or to think I'm better or smarter than any other individual here, but I'm guessing you guys never have officiated football. Read rule books in whole, interpretation books (which are JUST AS IMPORTANT), mechanics manuals, officiating clinics, conferences and meetings. There is much more than this in the rule book. So just keep that in mind. I'm not an NFL official, but philosophies are much the same along the levels in these types of actions....you have to take a lot into account when calling a game.

    I believe the ejection was correct and warranted as Lee did punch. It really relevant always if there is a closed fist or open hand, it is still considered a punch. It was to the head. That is expressly prohibited. It was intentional and in my opinion flagrant. What happened leading up to it is IS NO RELEVANCE at all. (Say if Detrich-Smith had punched Suh or spat on him previous to what Suh did....wouldn't change the fact Suh should have been ejected). The fact is, K22 (Pat Lee) threw a punch to the head. That calls for an ejection. It was the right call by the crew by the rule book, by their interpretations, by their case play and what they are told by the officiating department of the NFL.

    HOWEVER, I will say that R32 should have also been penalized with a personal foul for his grasping and pushing up on the facemask of Lee. I don't think R32's actions warranted an ejection, as I didn't see a punch. It should have been offsetting personal fouls, no 15 yards for the Lions.

    As for the holding, I don't think there really is none. If you ever been to a game in person or don't watch the ball on a punt...this happens all the time....you are getting mugged down the field. ESPECIALLY on a 2v1 or 3v1...you are NEVER EVER going to get a holding call. The reason is that, he's facing two guys...he's getting over powered and pushed back. Same why on holds on runs up the middle where the O-line grabs the jersey of a d-linemen, no hold is called because even though they are holding the jersey, they are pushing forward. As long as there is no tug and turn or pull...no holding call. But especially in cases of 2 v. 1 or 3 v. 1....you won't get the call for getting manhandled down field. I think the officials should have been a bit quicker to break it up and probably should have been more preventive from the start, as it was already chippy, but K22 (Pat Lee) threw a punch. Regardless of the events that took place up to that point, the ejection is warranted.
     
  23. PackwillBEback

    PackwillBEback Cheesehead

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    I only hear the penalized team's fan, player, coach, etc. say that. That is the only time I hear that. And if you want to play...play the game. Dont' commit illegal acts, don't commit an illegal football act (hold, facemask, etc.) or an illegal non-football act (kick, punch, etc.).
     
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  24. PackersDraft

    PackersDraft Draftnik

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    I agree. But this kind of stuff happens all the time. That could have just as easily been a situation where the official comes in and separates them.
     
  25. greenandgold

    greenandgold I'm Dirty Hairy Callahan

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    He took a swing, and that's what the ref saw. Apparently he did not see the holding/mugging/not letting Lee go after the play was over. But if he saw Lee swing, he was right in ejecting him.
     

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