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Rodgers sack problem

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Bastian, Nov 8, 2009.

  1. Bastian

    Bastian Cheesehead

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    I know a lot of you hate me. But, I'd like to make a point and see what you think:

    If you listen to some of these talking heads on ESPN, etc they say that GB's o-line sucks and that's why Rodgers gets sacked a lot.

    I know GB's o-line isn't perfect, but I think they get a bit of a bad rap.

    Hear me out:

    My preface: I don't think Romo is great or even better than average.
    And, I think Rodgers is probably better than Drew Bledsoe.

    However, when Bledsoe was Dallas QB, everyone in Dallas land bitched about the o-line being awful. He got sacked constantly. Then, when they put Romo in, all of the sudden, the o-line was much better.

    The truth: Romo got rid of the ball quicker. Watching that Vikes/GB game I notice that Favre drops back, makes a decsion and unloads the ball in about 3 to 4 seconds. Rodgers holds the ball sometimes between six and seven seconds.

    I've heard some Pack fans say that he is afraid to make a mistake. But, I think he is just too in love with the big play. (which he can make a lot of times, don't get me wrong)

    But, he needs to learn that a three yard pass can make it 2nd and seven. While a seven yard sack makes it 2nd and 17.

    I think he reminds me of a better version of Bledsoe. Good but flawed.

    The question is:

    is this an innate thing or can he change? More often than not, I think guys just can't change it. We'll see.

    What do you think about this?
     
  2. jststric

    jststric Cheesehead

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    Agreed!

    I tend to agree with you. After hearing his interview where he stated that he has total confidence in himself and that what he does works for him (he must be watching a different player than we are!) I am convinced that he is arrogant and wants to be the big play QB like Favre. He's learned most of his worst faults, that's for sure! Every game he holds that ball and gets sacked I can't help but say, "how's that working for ya?"
     
  3. Skol guy

    Skol guy Cheesehead

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    well as i like Aaron Rodgers as a QB he is no Bledsoe ,Brees or favre and until he proves he can put teams away your praising of him is falling on deaf ears. You have to win and so far he is 10-14 as a starter. I am not trying to talk smack i am just keeping it real. He looked woeful yesterday. was there no seperation with the receivers yesterday? I thought the O-Line gave him some time but he failed to pull the trigger on acouple of those sacks
     
  4. Lambeau Leaper

    Lambeau Leaper Cheesehead

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    I'm new so excuse me if I'm repeating what others have already said but I've fermented a few theories about Aaron which keep getting reinforced.

    1 The burden of immediately following No 4 may just be too great for anyone to cope with.

    2 While Rodgers' throwing mechanics are exemplary he seems to be off the required pace mentally. He holds the ball one or two beats too long to insure himself against errors (and inevitable comparisons) which would be fine behind a dominant O-line but he hasn't got one. This translates to sacks or picks when he's hurried. Though he'd be better taking 20 sacks than throwing 3 interceptions.

    3 He probably lacks the necessary self-confidence yet to ignore some of McCarthy's more ill-advised playcalls.

    4 While he will invariably post gaudy personal stats because he can certainly throw a mean ball and has excellent targets he doesn't seem to have that indefinable air of a match winner. You know who retained that even when he lost.

    5. He's playing hurt most of the time, once again to avoid unfavrouble (sic) comparisons with Ol' Iron Man.
     
  5. Skol guy

    Skol guy Cheesehead

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    That o-line can't seem to keep him upright but alot of the blame has to go on Rodgers. those sacks at like 36 right now is giving up 360 or so in yards and killing drives. Health wise he is getting battered so less hits his health will get better
     
  6. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

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    Bastian. You say Rodgers is in love with the big play. But could that be all that is being called by the coach? I cant blame Rodgers for the long ball because hes not calling the plays. That maybe all he is given is deep routes. Once again GB was not running short, ball moving plays (besides the run).

    Youre correct, they were airing it out. I am all for Rodgers but even as a fan of his, he is missing numerous opportunities to scramble, instead taking a sack. Or doing crazy things like dumping the ball AFTER stepping out of bounds (counts as a sack because he was touched by a buc).

    And the o-line deserves extra blame this week. We had veteran lineman getting beat by rookie d-linement. Get outta here!!!
     
  7. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Thruth is he didn't have those problems last year... Well, not to this extent...

    It's true that the OL has done a lot better job than, say, against Chicago, but they're still BAD...

    It's some on Rodgers, too. He seems like he lost every inch of pocket presence he once had.

    But I blame it mostly on the Coach. Last game, if you look at the tape, you'll see Rodgers holding the ball, having time, but nobody being open. you'll see A LOT of 10 yards routes or more.

    McCarthy is trying to force the long pass everytime. We're no longer a West Coast offense. But we don't have the running game and the OL to make the constant deep pass work...
     
  8. bad93ex

    bad93ex Cheesehead

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    I think the success they had in preseason and the bear's game led them to believe that they could just chuck it downfield anytime they wanted a score.
     
  9. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Moved the thread to the Packer Area.

    Bastian, it's not that Cowboys fans only got to post on the Smack Area. It's the content of the post...
     
  10. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    I disagree ... In several of the games played this season, there has been plenty of examples of check downs available to Rodgers when the long receiver isn't open, however, many times it looks like Rodgers is "staring himself blind" trying to find the open (long) receiver, when in fact his check downs or other players are actually within range (about 2-4 yards away) and open ... Yet it doesn't seem that he is aware of where they are ...

    I contend that if Rodgers could avoid just half the sacks he is getting each game, we would see a huge improvement on the offensive line all together ...

    Several times the offensive line has provided more than 5 seconds - which by almost any standard in the NFL should be enough time to atleast get to a check down OR throw the ball away ... - Instead Rodgers either scrambles more, keep looking down the field, and gets sacked ...

    His pocket presence at this time in his career is really bad ... - And his apparent lack (based on interviews) to seemingly acknowledge that he might have to change his game should leave alot of concern ...

    McCarthy has also gisted at the notion that Rodgers might be holding the ball a little longer than he is actually supposed to, when it comes to what plays that were called ...

    Which brings us the usage of short routes and slants ... - Those kind of plays require the quarterback to have a rather excellent "peripheral vision" and fast read of the opposing line ... A quick read, Rodgers doesn't seem to have at this point ... and in some ways, I fear, he might never get it ..., which is why I believe his stats are misleading when it comes to judge how well Rodgers actually is performing ... - With a less talented wide receiver corps than what is currently playing in Green Bay those numbers I believe would not look like they are currently ...
     
  11. angryguy77

    angryguy77 Cheesehead

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    The title of this thread needs to be changed. For a minute I thought Rodgers found somthing after a self examination
     
  12. Barb in Oregon

    Barb in Oregon Cheesehead

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    I don't see this as a one-aspect issue. No one on that team is so bad as to take the blame all on themselves. No quarterback ever put up great numbers or many Ws without an able o-line and recievers who could hang on to balls that hit them on the numbers. Needless to say, there isn't an o-line or receiver corps in the NFL that can make a truly inept quarterback into anything other than what he is.

    I think everybody on this team needs to step up, in view of who they've drawn as teammates. Rodgers needs more time than he's getting and the o-line needs him to do more with less time than he would like to have, to learn to take less over a loss. There isn't anything that says that both can't be true. Nobody is entitled to teammates that make his job easy. All that can be asked is that he make it attainable.

    Green Bay can attain more wins than they've been getting. As long as each player decides that making up the difference is his personal responsibility, I don't see a reason that can't happen. My sense is that the Green Bay players see it the same way. If I had to bet, I'd bet they will improve.

    That is the difference between this team and Detroit in years past. I don't know what this years' team is doing, but Detroit had been engaging in a blame game in their locker room, where too many guys were looking for excuses why they didn't need to step it up a notch, why the failures weren't their fault. I know this, because they said so in public, loudly. You may as well complain to everyone at your neighborhood Christmas party that your spouse fails you in bed, and expect that to help to problem. Somebody has to start thinking, "We're failing, and I need to make every contribution I can to change that. I have to find something to do that I'm not already doing. I have to be the leader here." Otherwise, they aren't going to turn things around.

    I think Rodgers can stay on his feet and connect for positive yards more than he does. Maybe its just because I like him, but I think he will.

    Didn't the saying "Quitters never win and winners never quit" come out of Green Bay? Lombardi said it, but if Green Bay players hadn't taken that to heart and lived it, nobody would remember a word he ever said. That ethic is why the game's highest prize is called the Lombardi trophy. That's a good history to draw from.
     
  13. Ace731

    Ace731 Cheesehead

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    its the play calling in my opinion. where are the screen passes? the quick slants? i cant imagine rodgers is checking out of these plays, as much as i think they are not being called by the terrible play caller in **** mickcarty. the best way to help stay away from being sacked is to run these types of plays. in 07 favre threw slants and screens like a champ. then the running game started to open up. how does a coaching staff not see any of this? it just doesnt make sense to me.
     
  14. ColtsSeahawks

    ColtsSeahawks Cheesehead

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    I dont know what to think anymore, I mean the O line sure doesnt help... Rodgers hangs on to the ball to long that is a given, HOWEVER I still say 80% of the sacks are the O lines fault... The 6 or 7 sacks he took in the 2nd Vikings game, I think maybe 2 were his fault.... The others he just had no time at all to throw the ball... But yes Rodgers needs to learn how to get rid of the ball.

    THey have Dallas coming up and that is just scary. I still have faith in Rodgers, he is a very talented QB!!
     
  15. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Rodgers didn't have this sack numbers last year... It's obvious that most of the blame is on the OL and in the altered playbook...

    Some compared him to Bledsoe???? That's a bad joke.

    The fact that Rodgers hold onto the ball too long sometimes doesn't change the fact that we have the worst OL in Packers hystory, to say the least...
     
  16. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    I would say that several plays where the offensive line actually were able to fend off the opponents for more than 5-6 seconds, and Rodgers still getting sacked, would indicate that alot more of the blame actually lies with Rodgers than on the offensive line itself ...

    Notice when Rodgers lines up behind center ... - In most other situations on opposing teams - Even Joshmann did this ... You would see the qb actually looking alot to both his sides before the snap ... - Whereas with Rodgers, he just lines up, takes an occasional look at the sides, but mostly, once the ball is snapped, you can almost tell where he is trying to get the ball ... - Long ... Even during the Bucs game, there were several options open to him, in the short field ... - Yet he still opted to go long ...

    Regardless if the intended play was setup for the long pass, a quarterback at this point in his career should still be able to make the decision to either dump it off or simply throw it away ....

    In almost every game there has been instances where the offensive line held off the opponents defense for more than 5 seconds ...

    From the linemens perspective, it must be a little disheartening knowing that even when you provide ample time, the outcome still results in a sack for a loss ... - That makes it mentally more difficult to "man" up ... Even though they are professionals ... it's never fun to lose ...
     
  17. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    You trully believe that???? That, if it wasn't Rodgers as the QB, the number of sacks would drop consistently? That this OL would look average?

    I said before, there are, indeed, those times, but they're 20%-25% of the sacks. The rest is pure BAD OL. Take those 25% off the sacks... It's still 28,5 sacks. Still league worst.

    Take a look at the films... Take a look at the routes the receivers ran... There's nobody open, most of the time.

    Aaron Rodgers 2008 numbers: 34 sacks. In 16 games. Same Wrs... Same Running Backs... Same qb... DIFFERENT OL.

    Aaron Rodgers 2009 numbers: 37 sacks. IN 8 GAMES. Same Wrs... Same Running Backs... Same qb... DIFFERENT OL.

    Yeah, it was probably magic. I mean, suddenly Rodgers just became propense to holding the ball too long...

    You may say that you're not persecuting him... But you are...

    How can you put MOST of the blame on him, with those kind of numbers, is beyond me. I'll actually have to dissecate every single sack to show you how terrible our OL is, and that, YES, RODGERS HAS BLAME IN SOME SACKS, but the ridiculous ammount of sacks COULD NEVER POSSIBLY BE A RESULT OF QB PLAY...

    But again, if you're gonna just ignore that and keep repeating that Rodgers is the most responsible for the sacks he has taken, then I'll just stop replying, and let other people do it...

    Perhaps make a poll? We already know how the majority feel about Rodgers for the next 10 years of Favre now... We already know how the majority feels about Favre being or not the best all time... We'll see how the majority feel if is Rodgers, the Line, or McCarthy the most to blame for the inneptness of the pass protection...
     
  18. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    First, I didn't say the sacks was purely Rodgers fault, however I did stress that he does in fact to seem to hold more blame than what is creditted to him ...

    I would say about 50% of the sacks is on Rodgers ... - And subtracting those ... - then all of a sudden the offensive line does NOT look so bad as alot of people are saying it is ...

    Second, - If you would just stop almost labelling Rodgers as the Second Coming ... then we might even be able to find alot more common ground, however, as is ... I just don't see Rodgers as "Great" as his numbers indicates ... In fact I would contend that Rodgers impressive stats, says more about his WR and TE's than it does about Rodgers ... - And at this point, his stats are highly misleading in terms of assessing how good a quarterback he really is ...

    Last ... Like we've been over before ... If you would just fully read my posts, instead of just skimming them ... then perhaps you would see what I'm referring to ... Whether or not you agree with them is an entirely different matter, as we all have our opinions, but to say I'm "persecuting" him is far fetched at best ... - When I just simply do not view him as "Great" - And as I've said time and again ... He *IS* very talented, and could become a "Great" quarterback, but right now ... he is missing some vital parts and ingredients in his progression, that he (in my opinion) *should* have by now ...
     
  19. Skol guy

    Skol guy Cheesehead

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    When you got guys like Troy Aikmen pointing it out on TV and other broadcasters there might be something to it. MM blamed Rodgers on 6 of the 8 sacks in the first Vikings game. I was shocked he didn't get rid of three of those balls against Tampa
     
  20. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    And I didn't EVER say you said it was purely on Rodgers

    Completely disagree, because of what I've posted. Again, I won't break it down sack by sack, but I can make a poll to see how most feel...

    Never labeled him the second comming. In fact, IN EVERY POST I'VE MAID (contrary to someone who only praises after he has been called out), I've said that RODGERS IS TO BLAME FOR THE SACKS, AND WERE HE NOT THE QB, WE WOULD HAVE A LOT LESS SACKS! But still, it would be league-leading or close to it.

    I've read them fully. I agreed with the other points you made, AS I POSTED THEM MYSELF. I was discussing one separated part of your post, that Rodgers is MOST to blame. I'm not discussing if Rodgers IS to blame, if he's a GOOD OR GREAT QB. I'm discussing if he's MOST to blame for the sacks.

    And about the persecution, as I've posted before, you only seem to praise anything he does when you're called out. Every other time, you seem to try to diminish his competence. BADLY.

    First of all, MM should be blaming himself. If he doesn't want Rodgers getting sacked, he should try to run more than 13 times a game, specially when he HAS THE LEAD, and try to call screens and short passes more often, instead of plays that take 7 seconds to develop. Because Rodgers sure wasn't just looking at the Jumbotron when he held the ball too long.

    I'll do like LT again and shout. I'VE SAID IT ALREADY, RODGERS DOES DESERVE THE BLAME FOR HOLDING THE BALL TOO LONG.

    Guess what? He doesn't have a runing game, he keeps getting 3rd and longs, and his receivers keep dropping balls (LEAGUE LEADING). His protection is god-awful, and his fatass coach keeps calling long plays. And he is in his second year.

    Should he be dumping off those balls? ABSOLUTELY YES. But show me a perfect QB. He's usually doesn't throw ints, he can scramble (when he doesn't have BOTH foot injuried), and he's usually dead on.
    -----------------------
    To sum it up, I have no problem with saying that he's not an elite QB, that he's not a Great qb, that he's cost us games, that he has a lot of areas to improve. Those are all truth. But to say he's the MAIN reason why our offense isn't working like it should? To say he's the MAIN reason for what's not working with the team? Give me a break.
     
  21. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    Lets review the two TDs against Tampa Bay ...

    On BOTH instances, Rodgers took a drop back ... 3 steps or so ... then released ... in about little more than 3 seconds ...

    - The o-line seemed to hold it's ground here ... and *IF the o-line were as bad as alot of people seem bent on thinking (It's pretty average at this point and not having a quarterback able to make fast decisions and quick reads makes that same o-line look even more bad ...)

    Add to that also, - how many times were the Packers in possession in the fourth quarter ? - Yet on every drive the Packers failed to get even a field goal ...

    I've been saying from the beginning that the o-line is *NOT* "as bad" as people seem to think it is ... - Which is why I'm "targetting" Rodgers, because you as well as I know ... that a poll won't mean anything, as most users on here, would vote in favor of Rodgers ... - Just take a look at all the posts, where whenever most seem to critisize Rodgers, - they are being labelled as "haters" and people who "persecute" him ... - When in fact all *we* are saying is that the problem is NOT only on the o-line, but also just as much with the play of the quarterback ...

    Also, I've stated before, *if* Rodgers would perhaps start to change his game a little and take into account that his o-line "forces" him to get rid of the ball faster - then it might change, however, in those interviews Rodgers has given so far ... - He has has in all of them that he doesn't intend to change the way he plays ... - And *That* should tell you alot ...

    As for calling out more screen plays and short passes ... - While that would probably help, utilizing short passes also requires that the quarterback is able to make quick reads at the line of scrimmage when lining up ... and so far based on the previous season as well as this season, this is one department that Rodgers seemingly is highly lacking in ... - that and his pocket presence ... - Not to mention his peripheral vision in the short field ...

    Last ... the *First* time I started out by critisizing Rodgers, I actually clearly stated how I viewed him ... - Still I conted in my opinion that about half the sacks could have been avoided if Rodgers would change his play, and start getting rid of the ball a little faster in general, and not look for the long completion to an open receiver almost every time he wants to throw ...
     
  22. Skol guy

    Skol guy Cheesehead

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    i have never said he was to blame. I blame your defense,special teams and O-line and have graded Rodgers high but to put him in the same sentance of Brett Favre and what he is doing with a brand new team is very Bias. In the nfl The ball is in the air before the receiver breaks on alot of passes so he is hooking up with all new receivers now for the first time. Favre still has everybody jumping to his pump fake as good as anybody. Besides he has lost no zip that I can tell so really what has Rodgers done better? More yards? did I mention we have AP?Favre throws the ball less because we haven't had to battle back as much. His 16-3 Td to Int ratio his tops in the NFL he % ratio is solid and QB rateing is over 100 so i don't see advantage rodgers this year at all. rodgers has proved nothing in his career so far and Brett Favre has been to the Mountain top. Sorry get in the playoffs and do some damage before I crown anybody King. The what if's and what not's about the rest of your team should not be a automatic positive for Aaron Rodgers
     
  23. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    What I have seen. Last year at the beginning of the year I said Rodgers held on to the ball to long. He has not learned his lesson. At least a third of the sacks can be directly attributed to Rodgers. If a QB tacks a sack outside the tackle box it is on him. Once outside the box he has the option of throwing the ball away. On more then one occasion in almost every game Rodgers has taken a sack outside the tackle box. There is no excuse for this. In the Vikings games I think about half the sacks could have been avoided if he had thrown the ball away. It also seems to me he has a fear of "threading" the ball into tight quarters. Yes, it may lead to an interception, but at the same time top QB's do it all the time. If you can't, then your in there with all the other "average" QB's.
     
  24. Quientus

    Quientus Oenophile

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    @ Skolviking:
    - I believe that PackersRS was referring to me ...

    @ PackersRS:
    - Never ONCE have I said that Rodgers is the main reason ... What I have said is that Rodgers is ALSO a LARGE Part of the reason that the offensive line is seemingly playing poorly ...

    - However you as well as the majority of the posters here, have continually said that *IF* Rodgers didn't have to play behind such a poor, poor and bad offensive line, that he (Rodgers) would indeed be very much better, - *THAT* is what I'm contesting ... - and I'm providing my reasons for that arguement ..., Because honestly I just don't see the Packers offensive line being as bad as it is said to be ... In fact I would say that the Bears offensive line is looking far worse at this point ...

    I've watched every Packer game this season, more than once (most times I watch them up three times) ...

    Please stop with the accusatory remarks, every time someone disagrees ...

    We are all here to discuss and debate the sport we all have a high fondness of ...

    And the irony is ... If you look back at the games ... and time Rodgers in the pocket, both before either a release of the ball, or when he is opting to scramble ... - You would see that I've provided nothing but sound logic, factual substance in my argueing ...

    And when McCarthy addresses this in the media, most of the same people, are calling out for McCarthys head aswell, while in the same breath supporting Ted Thomson ... Again, if we are going to argue, atleast let us stay on point without the trancient flaming ...
     
  25. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    I knew this would happen...
     

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